Matrix

Is there a thread for the matrix that I cant find? I assumed thered be one because of the recent com-pod (or mission-cast), or commissioned podcast or whatever. 

I was wondering if there was an audio commentary to play along with the movie that anyone might reccommend. Should i rewatch it with the directors commentary or with a track by someone not involved with the making of the movies?

Comments

  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    You just created it, haha!  I highly recommend all of the available audio commentaries.  I'm actually not sure if the Wachowski's ever recorded one, but I know the actors, technical and SFX people, and a few philosophers did one each and they're really good. 
  • Ive always seen neo in the matrix the same way as when someone plays a video game with cheat codes. except the video game is a real world setting. unfortunately that has also always bothered me, because so many times neo doesnt use what he could actually do in favor of using his powers to do something thats more cinematically appealing or dramatic. 
    think about if you lived in a world where you could rewrite its 'code' in real time to alter reality. the whole world would shape itself you your every whim, you wouldnt jump around doing karate to get what you wanted. 
  • i was wondering if any humans died because of being injured from being too close to the mayhem of one of neo and agent smiths fights? i think neo and agent smith both would have wanted to keep outside casualties to a minimum but i cant remember them ever showing that. 
  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    I wrote an essay on Neo and his kungfu and why it wasn't a plot hole back when Reloaded first came out, I wonder if I can dig that up??  Anyway, the ethics of the machine/man war are fascinating, maybe we can get into those in another podcast.  A few things to bend the noodle on...

    Are the machines really evil, and is humanity really enslaved?  If what is real is what you can taste, touch, hear, and feel, and you can do all those things in the Matrix with complete freedom of choice, than does it matter that you're sitting in a vat of goo?

    If the accounts in the Animatrix are true, are the machines justified in their actions?  Humanity fucked up the planet and made it uninhabitable by both species, the machines won a war of human aggression and then used us to provide an environment where both species can thrive. 

    Was the Oracle's peace process part of the plan all along?  Is this the machine's equivalent of the Marshal Plan?

    If humanity is enslaved, and the machines are evil, does this mean the end of saving humanity and preserving Zion justifies the means of potentially killing hundreds or even thousands of "coppertops"?  The movie even plays with this a bit, calling the unplugged humans freedom fighters or terrorists depending on the POV.  

    If the machines are evil by providing humans with a comfortable existence while ultimately using and discarding humans to suit their own purposes, what does that say about raising animals for their pelts and meat, assuming it was done humanely?  If you object to that analogy, where would you draw the line?  Can we farm great apes?  Whales?  Dogs?  Pigs?  If we can farm pigs but not dogs, why not?
  • bizmarkiefaderbizmarkiefader San Francisco
    edited July 2015

    If the machines are evil by providing humans with a comfortable existence while ultimately using and discarding humans to suit their own purposes, what does that say about raising animals for their pelts and meat, assuming it was done humanely?  If you object to that analogy, where would you draw the line?  Can we farm great apes?  Whales?  Dogs?  Pigs?  If we can farm pigs but not dogs, why not?

    We've bred dogs and cats specifically to be companions to humans. Cosmos had a really interesting segment where he talked about how the traits that make us like dogs are survival traits for them. We pick and choose the ones that are nice to us and have cute fluffy faces and brought them into our homes, which I think is why we find harming them so abhorrent. We basically turned wolves into Chihuahuas for our amusement but the result is these animals like and trust us and we like and trust them.

    As for farming animals in general, the ethics of that has always been really hazy to me. It feels like something we'll look back on as a species in 200 years when we're 3D printing hamburgers and consider it savage. The inhumane factory farms I think most progressive people already find disgusting. I just hope those judgmental future fucks take into account we don't really have another way to get meat, and meat is awesome.


  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    If we choose not to most efficiently farm meat by not employing factory farming methods, or to eschew eating certain types of animals out of sentiment, then we do so for purely emotional reasons. Do we judge the machines by these standard? Is that not also an emotional choice? Do we judge orca as assholes because they like to "play" with seals and penguins before optionally consuming them? What does that judgment even mean in this context?

    Maybe some of this will come up in our commissioned podcast for "V", haha.

  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited July 2015
    I'd be totally cool with pigs and dogs calling us evil. I would be defenseless against their logic.

    I think it becomes problematic when you try to appeal to some morality beyond what is based in our perception of the world (*cough* some Christians *cough*), beyond what coincides with our level of perception/sentience, whether upwards or downwards. Yes, we can snowball this logic into all kinds of weird places, but there is a middle ground. I reject thee, snowball fallacy!

    With pigs in particular, we need to kill them to live. Or at one point we did, anyway. As a paleo person, I still think eating meat is the healthiest way. It's not optimal, but I don't consider myself evil for doing it. But if the pigs want to overthrow us, go for it.
    trippybizmarkiefader
  • bizmarkiefaderbizmarkiefader San Francisco
    Is it reasonable to view the machines relationship with humans as the same as humans have with animals? We consider animals to be on another plane of emotion and intelligence, suggesting that they're less affected by the treatment than a human would be (I don't necessarily agree with this, but that's my understanding). The machines probably view us the same way.

    Ethically, the machines were forced with the same choice humans are: farm the creatures "beneath" you or die. You could argue they did a way better job making us comfortable than we did for animals. Pigs are trapped in tiny boxes but they don't think about it enough to really understand the situation they're in (as far as we know, this is a big assumption). Humans are placed in tiny pods but given the freedom to think and live fake lives, also unaware of the situation they're actually in. So I guess the question is, is it ethical to save your own species from extinction at the expense of others, regardless of how comfortable you make them? Does it even matter what we think of them when they do? Should we care what they think of us when we rise up and try to take the world back? Should I be working instead of thinking about dogs and pigs and machines all morning?
  • bizmarkiefaderbizmarkiefader San Francisco
    JaimieT said:

    With pigs in particular, we need to kill them to live. Or at one point we did, anyway. As a paleo person, I still think eating meat is the healthiest way. It's not optimal, but I don't consider myself evil for doing it. But if the pigs want to overthrow us, go for it.


    Even if we all went vegan, animals are still going to die to make our food. We still need pesticides and traps to kill all the pests to mass produce crops, we'll still get rabbits and mice caught in the blades of the harvesters.
  • edited July 2015
    A Question and a few points:

    1.  Funny that the machines went out of their way to make sure that a human within the Matrix looks like their physical self.  Typically, each person "envisions" or projects their outfits / style / hair cut, etc...  but how can you project yourself if you've never physically seen yourself in a mirror?  Neo had no idea what he "really" looked like.  

    (We know this because everyone else within the crew would have noticed it the first time he jumps into the matrix post blue pill.  Yet, he goes back looking like pre-blue pill Neo) 

    2. [A. Ron]  "Are the machines really evil, ..... you can do all those things in the Matrix with complete freedom of choice, than does it matter that you're sitting in a vat of goo?"

    Of course!  Is it not immoral if you're taking advantage of or violating someone's person or property regardless if they're even realizing it?  

    If I could manage to perpetually steal a small enough amount of money that allows it to go unnoticed on a daily basis, would that still not be theft?   Victim's knowledge isn't a prerequisite . 


    3. [A. Ron]  "If the machines are evil by providing humans with a comfortable existence"   

    Wasn't the point to make sure humans accepted the program.  The machines went out of their way to assume a utopia was the way to go to assure their harvested humans would be happy but as explained by Smith, it didn't work.  The only way to make it work was to instill humans at the "peak of humanity" (Roughly 1999) in what was a copy of what was a human reality. 
  • A Serpent Rainbow drop in the first 5 minutes of cast.... AWESOME
  • If you assume that the machines aren't all bad, and have actually developed a moral code beyond their own survival, I think it actually solves one of my bigger problems with the plot. As they mentioned in the podcast, the "humans as energy" thing makes absolutely no sense. Even if you go with them being backup batteries, and even if you assume that these advanced machines would be incapable of matching Elon Musk's batter-making ability, it still doesn't explain why the machines wouldn't just use cows or worms or algae, which wouldn't require an elaborate virtual reality control system.

    But if the machines are not the aggressors, then maybe keeping all those humans alive, and indeed keeping them happy, was a condition they imposed on themselves when they took over. I think Rick's point that "taking advantage of or violating someone's person or property regardless if they're even realizing it" is always immoral is a bit too binary. If the situation was such that humanity would destroy the planet and wipe out both species if left unchecked, then would it not be at least a little bit better for them to enslave humanity in a comfortable virtual reality than to extinguish us completely?
    DaveyMac
  • Below is a very compelling argument that The One is actually Agent Smith, and not Neo.  Woah.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkMU1mKdwPI&feature=youtu.be

  • LukeLuke Central Illinois
    @trippy look up the Matrix within a Matrix theory it basically is what you explained.

    The "Real World" was always just a second level of the matrix to hold the minds of those that didn't fit in the first matrix. Which explains why Neo has powers in the real world.
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