206 - "Church in Ruins"

Director: Miguel Sapochnik
Writer: Nic Pizzolatto & Scott Lasser
Is this going to be the week the stage two boosters kick in, or is it going to flame out?  That's the real mystery at the heart of this season.


  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    Man I sure hope so. This season has been fairly enjoyable, just not nearly as intriguing as last year.
  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    Oh man! That was badass! Finally, a truly great episode. Loved the Frank and Ray stuff, loved the heist at the sex party. I feel validated as a fan.
  • AManIsNoOneAManIsNoOne Greensboro, NC
    I need a cadaver dog and a cheese grater...STAT!
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    The musical score during the party/Ray and Paul's stuff was awesome! I really thought Frank was going to show Irina Blake's picture and find out who is screwing him over. Well, I guess almost everyone is at this point. And Ani finally used a knife! Good stuff. Curious to see who that mustachioed man was from her hallucinations. Nobody good, obviously.
  • kingbee67kingbee67 Los Angeles Ca.

    I know we flogged this to death but I saw that Mulholland Drive made 21 on the British list of top 100 American movies.

  • broompersonbroomperson the Iron Islands
    ok what the fuck was that music at the party/escape? Sounded like something that should be played during the climax of cheesy 70's mystery movie
  • CarnivalArtsCarnivalArts New Orleans
    The tall, thin cop who paid her $500 to pawn the diamonds - I think it's James Frain (Ray's superior who told him he had to vacate the apartment). The two children of the jewelry store owner in the photo - could they have been the mayor's two kids?
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    You're probably right about it being Frain. Much more interesting than it just being Blake.
  • ArctorArctor The Netherlands
    @Murderbear I noticed the score too, that was awesome! Felt like an homage to old Bond films or something, totally legit.

    So much cool shit in this episode. Frank and Ray's moments with those kids. Ray's coke/whiskey bender montage. Ani's mysterious mdma fuelded flashbacks to what I'm presuming is some childhood sexual abuse.

    And that meeting at the factory should've been held at Taco Cabeza. See what happens when you don't meet in public: chicks get their throat cut.
  • AManIsNoOneAManIsNoOne Greensboro, NC
    edited July 2015
    Seriously though, I've talked a lot of shit about this season, and while I don't feel this makes up for it's shortcomings, this was a very good episode. Ray/Frank scene was solid through and through. Also really enjoyed the scene with Ani doing her knife training. She's obviously repping House Bolton. Nice foreshadowing and to add some speculation, could her friends art work gift be a piece of foreshadowing as well? She said it was inspired by Ani and represented somebody drowning on land. I'm thinking maybe Ani gets in too deep and meets her ending by being buried alive in concrete? That'd be pretty gangster. Speaking of gangster, I actually bought Vince Vaughn this episode. Him being more direct and less metaphorical was big improvement in my opinion. Throughout the episode, he was letting his eyes do much of the talking/acting, which also seemed like a running theme with all the main characters including the scene where Ray visits the rapist and much of Ani's trip to the sex party. Even got Ani's first person vantage as she became intoxicated/delusional. I agree with MurderBear that the guy from her delusion has to be significant in some fashion. The one scene showing an adult hand and a child's hand reaching for each other hints that it's somebody from her childhood. It could be something as simple as a familial abuser but holding out hope it's something a bit more original and intriguing. Not too much Paul this week, maybe we'll get a bit more of him next week as he connects the dots from the contracts he stole and his leads on the diamonds. A lot to like about this episode, I'd give it an 8 overall. 
  • Is Frank the best father figure on the show?

    On a related note, Nic P. must have dad issues. I feel like it's at the core off all his writing
  • edited July 2015
    Assaults, trespassing, and murder(s) during the commission of burglary and kidnapping. Stolen evidence is virtually no evidence at all to the state's attorney, but the girl may have some good testimony. Will the cops be hunting our heroes now though? Several witnesses saw the murder and Blake thinks Ani is her sister. The state's attorney is playing with fire as she can be seen as directing her personal death squad. Why is Ray admitting cold blooded murder for two episodes now? Plot contrivances aside, this episode was perhaps better than most this season although it reminded me too much of the end of the movie Hannibal. 
  • ArctorArctor The Netherlands
    @firewalker601 Ray didn't actually admit to murder. He just said "I thought I killed you" (heavily implies but not an actual admission) and then wisely kept his mouth shut when asked who he did kill.
  • @Arctor He admitted it to Frank and although Ray wasn't as explicit with the rapist, his statements can be admitted into evidence even if those statements consist of implications. Ironically, Ray's failure to deny murdering anyone can be considered an admission. Law enforcement agencies, likely not all, record conversations of inmates/detainees and use it against them. Lesser criminals than Frank can be wired for sound (home or on his person). Ray is too loose with information that he doesn't need to give.
  • mike3point14159mike3point14159 International Falls MN
    Well you finally got your Chekhov's knife. I was actually really, really hoping that knife she picked up was a butter knife, and would leave her high and dry when she really needed it. Anybody else think that would have made for an interesting turn of events? Big dude grabs her after she kicks the fat guy in the balls. Slice, SLice, SLICE,,,, wtf,  BOOM 5 across the face. Nice try whore.           Then what?  Our boys have to leave her to her fate? They attempt a rescue (against overwhelming odds) when she doesn't show at the back door? 

    On another note, quite convenient our boys make it to the back door right as our heroine is making her escape with her missing person.

    Either way, a good use of 50 minutes. 

  • ArctorArctor The Netherlands
    edited July 2015
    @firewalker601 He doesn't actually explicitly say it to Frank either. It went like this:

    "You knew what I'd do"

    -"I know what I'd do"

    "You used my wife's tragedy to get me to kill someone."

    He doesn't actually say he did it. I'm also very suspicious of what you're saying about failure to deny murder. That would mean that when the cops interrogate you they can pin whatever they want on you if you use your right to remain silent.

    AFAIK they have to actually get you on tape saying you did something for it to be admissible evidence. Otherwise you can just deny it under oath in court and walk out.
  • I haven't said one good thing about this season and I've been dumping on it on Reddit and elsewhere. Let me just officially state that this was a fantastic hour of television by any standard. I think I liked every single storyline which shocked me.The whole episode felt cinematic and things actually flowed from scene to scene.

    However, 1 great episode of TV out of 6 doesn't make me feel "validated" to quote A Ron. If I told everyone about how awesome a restaurant was and they served me shitty green beans, shitty rolls, shitty mashed potatoes, shitty macaroni and cheese, shitty coleslaw, and then they finally brought out a badass steak; would I be able to say it was a good restaurant experience? I don't think so. And we still have the slice of chocolate pie and the beer to wash it all down with to go.
  • edited July 2015
    @Arctor He doesn't have to say "I killed that man" for his statements to be admissible and incriminating. Ray even admits to taking an action without speaking to the suspected rapist. Of course, the state would need a bit more evidence for a strong case, but Ray's statements only hurt him and provide a great get out of jail card for Frank if he was recording their conversations. He failed to deny murder in a conversation with a party who is not law enforcement. Different rules apply to conversations or interrogations with police. 
  • Doctor_NickDoctor_Nick Terminus
    edited July 2015
    Sending Ani, whose identity should, by all rights, be blown sky high with important party organizers (and apparently Blake really was not paying attention over the last several months) into the party with no plan is just plain silly.  What  was the point?  They didn't know Vera was there; getting her out was pretty much all Ani accomplished, other than the whole killing someone thing.  If Paul was just going to break and enter anyway, steal evidence and alert everyone they're under investigation, Ani didn't actually need to go undercover. 

    Also sounds like Burris had Caspere's stuff for the crazy meth guy to pawn- he's looking pretty good for the Birdman: Didn't want to kill Veloro, access to riot charges, was first on the scene after Veloro came to, was in possession of Caspere's stuff ....
  • ArctorArctor The Netherlands
    edited July 2015
    @firewalker601 I did some more reading and I believe a trial judge would exclude an involuntary non-explicit confession like this because "its probative value is substantially outweighed by the probability that
    its admission will [] create substantial danger of undue prejudice, of confusing the issues,
    or of misleading the jury." (352)

    With a not-guilty plea defense the defense lawyer could easily argue those remarks only pertained to what Frank wanted him to do while he didn't actually do it. Because Frank is a criminal it would be logical for Ray not to deny he did it in their conversation because of the pressure and because of the nature of his job for Frank. Because this would be a perfectly plausible scenario the recording would create undue prejudice.

    Same with the prison visit. Ray threatens the inmate so saying he didn't murder the other guy would make those threats less real. He has lots to gain in both cases to make it seem like he did it. (Nobody fucks with a blowfish)

    Because it's not explicit and because of those motives the probative value of these involuntary 'confessions' is extremely low.
  • mike3point14159mike3point14159 International Falls MN
    Don't know if this will ever have any bearing on the show but...

    The last shot in the pre show credits is of a planet in transit of the sun. In astronomical terms a "transit" is when something is between the viewer and the object the viewer is viewing. In other words when the sun, venus and the earth are lined up in a straight line, venus is in transit. Meaning it is not large enough to obscure the entire sun. When the  sun, our moon and the earth are in a straight line, the moon eclipses the sun. 

    The object transiting the sun in the credits could be venus or mercury. Get all up in your psychosphere on this one if you like.
  • edited July 2015
    This season has been all over the place with 2x the main characters as last season and the same amount of episodes. But for once, it seemed like all four characters were on the same page in "Church in Ruins." My eyes didn't leave the screen for the last 30 minutes--no checking the time, no checking my phone, no backing it up 10 seconds. Most of the season has been trying to keep up with everything, but this felt like home sweet home, good TV action with the right amount Pizzolatto's mojo. 

     My quick takes:
    -Chad is a weak point for me. After the interview with the rapist I think we can say with 95% certainty that Ray is the father. I don't feel like I've been rewarded for 5 episodes of wondering why he has red hair and looks nothing like his parents. 
    -It's strange how the rapist seems totally innocuous even though we know he's terrible. An ordinary criminal wearing an orange jumpsuit is hard to come by in True Detective, and he just doesn't seem like a threat knowing what we know about Chessani and co. Serial rapist acting alone: sprawl or no sprawl? Definitely no sprawl. Rare for this show 
    -The Mexican gangster sidekick with the cowboy hat keeps getting a lot of screen time. Like birdman screen time. He wears all black, even had black sunglasses on in last episode, and has a tasty mustache that looks like a raven's wingspan
    -Taylor Kitsch is doing a great job of selling Paul as a thrill seeker. It started with the bike, got better during the shootout at the cookhouse, and now he seems right at home doing some black ops. He's addicted to police work like it fills whatever hole left by his sexual confusion. In the car he ignores Ani in her trauma to try to get right to the casework, holding that folder tight like the pistol in episode 4
    -Frank was great in the final scene where he finds Irena dead. He finally hits a dead end and sees a crew in Vinci that's more powerful than him--Vince did a perfect job of conveying "oh fuck"
  • Hm just got the impression that maybe Blake Churchman is the father of Ray's son. Alltime villain hehe.

    I think it was a great episode and like firewalker601 indicated I am wondering too why Ray keeps admitting to everyone "Hey, you know... committed brutal murder back then, don't forget please.."

    Looking forward how the Mexican gang thing evolves :)
  • HatorianHatorian Dagobah
    edited July 2015
    How did Ray talk to the dude in prison through the glass like that without the phone??

    I also got a Manson vibe from that dude with the van in the flashback....
  • I just read the Sepinwall review, seems he was as confused as I was in the widow / baseball kid scene.  Who the heck was Stan?
  • UnderwoodUnderwood Philadelphia, PA
    That was a great hour of television. I've been more positive on this season than most, but I think more people than not can appreciate that episode. Put me firmly in the camp of loving the music during the orgy mansion scene. T Boone Burnett has done a really nice job with the music so far this season.  It's also not a coincidence that Miguel Sapochnik, (who directed Hardhome) was behind the best episode of the season.
  • elgat0elgat0 Clearwater

    The tall, thin cop who paid her $500 to pawn the diamonds - I think it's James Frain (Ray's superior who told him he had to vacate the apartment). The two children of the jewelry store owner in the photo - could they have been the mayor's two kids?

    I immediately had the same thought about the two kids.
  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    Okay, just about everyone loves this episode, me included, but I'd like to talk about some problems that I have that nobody else is talking about.

    I do wish Chad was more of a character.  Like, I get it, he's uncomfortable around Ray and things are strained, but with the performance and direction I just get that he's just this... nothing kind of kid. I'm not getting that he's afraid of Ray, or confused, or whatever... like, I'm not talking his physical appearance or anything, although I think he's cast to be deliberately appealing, but when I'm watching him, I'm just thinking, "ugh, Ray should just cut ties with this kid, there's nothing there for him."  And I don't think I should be feeling that.  I wish there was more chemistry and pathos so I was a bit torn between "Ray's a terrible human being to this point and this kid needs to get away from him until he can clean himself up" and "but man, look at the bond they have."

    I get it, I think this is the point NP is trying to make, maybe, that Ray's continuing attempt to have a relationship with his son is just a fundamentally selfish act, but honestly Jim freaking Carry's relationship with his kid in "Liar, Liar" was far more compelling.  Parent / children relationships are something I'm a sucker for, and I'm just getting nothing here. Seems like a shame. 

    Secondly, I wish Colin Farrell was directed to do a bit less in his confrontation with Frank.  His constant eye twitching and bulging routine just didn't work, especially since Vince was just crushing it across the table from him.  I think I could have done with a bit more dead eyed Farrell.  A bit more of a restrained performance would have taken that scene from 8/10 to 10/10, up there with anything else from the past year or so.

    I do really like Ani's knife attack.  It was a reverse "Old Bear" mutiny scene from Game of Thrones.  Jeor's scene was like "FUCK YEAH!  FUCK YEA-- Oh, shit.  Well, that's about right."  This one was "NO!!!  NOOOO!!!  NO--FUCK YEAH!"  
  • browniefivebrowniefive Minneapolis, MN

    The tall, thin cop who paid her $500 to pawn the diamonds - I think it's James Frain (Ray's superior who told him he had to vacate the apartment). The two children of the jewelry store owner in the photo - could they have been the mayor's two kids?

    I thought the same thing with kids. My exact words were, "I'm calling this now."  I've never said that before. 
  • browniefivebrowniefive Minneapolis, MN

    I do really like Ani's knife attack.  It was a reverse "Old Bear" mutiny scene from Game of Thrones.  Jeor's scene was like "FUCK YEAH!  FUCK YEA-- Oh, shit.  Well, that's about right."  This one was "NO!!!  NOOOO!!!  NO--FUCK YEAH!"  
    I haven't looked up how Rachel McAdams trained, but the Escala (attack pattern) dummy she has in her apartment, the blades she used, and the flow of the attack at the orgy scene all scream Filipino Martial Arts. If you are unfamiliar, I recommend people check it out. It is a very fun and highly effective style of martial arts. And I really liked how she instinctively pulled out the moves. 
This discussion has been closed.