interviewing and Job hunting advice

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  • emnofseattleemnofseattle Mason County, Washington USA
    Question I have - I was the SME at my company for this national account we called on.  I was given so many projects, tasks, assignments, etc. that they had to "make up" a title because they didn't have one in the HR system to encompass this.

    We merged and new management didn't know/understand my experience and function and demoted me in title only - but I had the pleasure of keeping my existing roles and added on several high level projects to where I was functioning at a level 2x where I was - but in HR I still had the lower role coded.  I was promised that after the dust settled after the merger, it would be corrected.  It never was.

    I was recently let go b/c my position was moved to another state (I chose to not move) and am in the process of job hunting (first time in 15 years).  I don't want to put my "demoted" role on my resume because I function at a way higher level than that, but I worry about potential employers calling my old company and thinking I lied to them.

    What's the best way to handle it?
    What’s the old title versus the new one? Does the newer title even indicate you had less job functions?

    Your old company is unlikely to tell the new one what either title or the level of your responsibilities were, most will only confirm employment. And since job titles usually only mean something within the company they were issued in anyway I doubt a prospective new employer will care, unless you completely made something up, unless the two titles are so far apart they indicate a completely different level of responsibilities (like one says supervisor and the other says janitor) I don’t think it will matter 
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited March 2018
    Question I have - I was the SME at my company for this national account we called on.  I was given so many projects, tasks, assignments, etc. that they had to "make up" a title because they didn't have one in the HR system to encompass this.

    We merged and new management didn't know/understand my experience and function and demoted me in title only - but I had the pleasure of keeping my existing roles and added on several high level projects to where I was functioning at a level 2x where I was - but in HR I still had the lower role coded.  I was promised that after the dust settled after the merger, it would be corrected.  It never was.

    I was recently let go b/c my position was moved to another state (I chose to not move) and am in the process of job hunting (first time in 15 years).  I don't want to put my "demoted" role on my resume because I funcñtion at a way higher level than that, but I worry about potential employers calling my old company and thinking I lied to them.

    What's the best way to handle it?
    What’s the old title versus the new one? Does the newer title even indicate you had less job functions?

    Your old company is unlikely to tell the new one what either title or the level of your responsibilities were, most will only confirm employment. And since job titles usually only mean something within the company they were issued in anyway I doubt a prospective new employer will care, unless you completely made something up, unless the two titles are so far apart they indicate a completely different level of responsibilities (like one says supervisor and the other says janitor) I don’t think it will matter 

    Okay.

    So my company confirmed job titles and dates after my offer letter. They used a 3rd party company to do it. @BourbonQueen, after you are hired, I would explain why they'll find a discrepancy if they do a check, and give them the number of someone at your old company for them to verify that you weren't being deceitful, if they care to. Maybe someone to confirm duties and titles at each stage. 

    It IS important to have an accurate job title during your job hunt.
    voodooratHatorian
  • JaimieT said:
    Question I have - I was the SME at my company for this national account we called on.  I was given so many projects, tasks, assignments, etc. that they had to "make up" a title because they didn't have one in the HR system to encompass this.

    We merged and new management didn't know/understand my experience and function and demoted me in title only - but I had the pleasure of keeping my existing roles and added on several high level projects to where I was functioning at a level 2x where I was - but in HR I still had the lower role coded.  I was promised that after the dust settled after the merger, it would be corrected.  It never was.

    I was recently let go b/c my position was moved to another state (I chose to not move) and am in the process of job hunting (first time in 15 years).  I don't want to put my "demoted" role on my resume because I funcñtion at a way higher level than that, but I worry about potential employers calling my old company and thinking I lied to them.

    What's the best way to handle it?
    What’s the old title versus the new one? Does the newer title even indicate you had less job functions?

    Your old company is unlikely to tell the new one what either title or the level of your responsibilities were, most will only confirm employment. And since job titles usually only mean something within the company they were issued in anyway I doubt a prospective new employer will care, unless you completely made something up, unless the two titles are so far apart they indicate a completely different level of responsibilities (like one says supervisor and the other says janitor) I don’t think it will matter 

    Okay.

    So my company confirmed job titles and dates after my offer letter. They used a 3rd party company to do it. @BourbonQueen, after you are hired, I would explain why they'll find a discrepancy if they do a check, and give them the number of someone at your old company for them to verify that you weren't being deceitful, if they care to. Maybe someone to confirm duties and titles at each stage. 

    It IS important to have an accurate job title during your job hunt.
    Agree with this.

    also companies do this a lot. They demote “title” only in the hopes the person gets the picture and leaves.

    since its just a title change and your compensation doesn’t change you have no options such as courts or anything like that. 

    Not saying that’s what’s happened to you but I’ve seen people get “demoted” and they got the picture and quit and the company.
  • emnofseattleemnofseattle Mason County, Washington USA
    edited March 2018
    JaimieT said:
    Question I have - I was the SME at my company for this national account we called on.  I was given so many projects, tasks, assignments, etc. that they had to "make up" a title because they didn't have one in the HR system to encompass this.

    We merged and new management didn't know/understand my experience and function and demoted me in title only - but I had the pleasure of keeping my existing roles and added on several high level projects to where I was functioning at a level 2x where I was - but in HR I still had the lower role coded.  I was promised that after the dust settled after the merger, it would be corrected.  It never was.

    I was recently let go b/c my position was moved to another state (I chose to not move) and am in the process of job hunting (first time in 15 years).  I don't want to put my "demoted" role on my resume because I funcñtion at a way higher level than that, but I worry about potential employers calling my old company and thinking I lied to them.

    What's the best way to handle it?
    What’s the old title versus the new one? Does the newer title even indicate you had less job functions?

    Your old company is unlikely to tell the new one what either title or the level of your responsibilities were, most will only confirm employment. And since job titles usually only mean something within the company they were issued in anyway I doubt a prospective new employer will care, unless you completely made something up, unless the two titles are so far apart they indicate a completely different level of responsibilities (like one says supervisor and the other says janitor) I don’t think it will matter 

    Okay.

    So my company confirmed job titles and dates after my offer letter. They used a 3rd party company to do it. @BourbonQueen, after you are hired, I would explain why they'll find a discrepancy if they do a check, and give them the number of someone at your old company for them to verify that you weren't being deceitful, if they care to. Maybe someone to confirm duties and titles at each stage. 

    It IS important to have an accurate job title during your job hunt.
    So your company would exclude an otherwise qualified applicant due to a technical issue like disagreement over wording of a (assuming non legally regulated) job title? 

    Especially since on most applications you can just leave job title blank and explain your responsibilities. I don’t feel I’d even want to work somewhere if after a conditional job offer they withdrew it because they found what’s at most a paperwork dispute between a previous employer and applicant. 

    I would just throw my most recent job title on the application and run with it, job titles except in certain cases are not legally regulated and I’ve worked for employers who’ve made really complex and impressive sounding titles for people who had no actual authority 

    I perform in job interviews by being confident, I don’t go to the effort of saying “well my previous employer might tell you x but I say y” if it’s a quality employer they’ll give a chance later to explain any discrepancies of such a minor nature such as job title wording. Confidence and demeanor, in my opinion are far more important then fretting over something like a job title, especially if your prior employer has no straight answer for what that even is 

    I left an employer years ago after having a minor accident, and later I got another job, I explained nothing about the accident on application, the previous employer reported it to the new one, I was called and asked for my side of the story “it was in the company yard, not on the road, there was no other people involved, no police accident report and no incident report filed to my boss” “ok, when can you start?” job interviews are a commercial, so I put my best case forward and those types of minor issues can get worked out during the offer 



  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    That's great, @emnofseattle. :)
    Hatorian
  • I wouldn’t worry much about job titles. I think JaimeT gave the best advice and if you are really worried about it.

     Another option is you can give them your last payslip. It would confirm your employment with the company as well as how much you made. Unless you’re asking for a ton of more money then it might be a good way to confirm your employment. 

  • cdrivecdrive Houston, TX
    Big boy power move today. Told the owner of my company that if he gave me a $20k raise, over the last few years I’d still be his cheapest, most  producing sales guy and most senior to the company.  I had packed all my personal stuff from my office into 2 boxes and put it in my car beforehand that morning because the owner can be a ruthless hothead and I was prepared for him to tell me to get the fuck out of his building.  This was easily the scariest, riskiest thing I’ve ever done ever. But it worked. Or at least, I didn’t get fired, the guy was worried I was telling him I was going to quit, and he told me he agreed.  Told me to be patient with the money.  (We’re pulling out of a multi-year economic slump that I’ve carried them out of and my timing was after landing some really big scores recently) @Hatorian how nuts or typical is this? To negotiate a substantial salary increase away from your review....I didn’t even have an offer in my back pocket but I did have headhunters with a few I had gotten into deeper levels of conversation with.  I’ve read a lot about this with articles on the web.  Practiced what I would say in the car many times and had my notes written on my phone. Today has just been crazy to process. Can’t believe I went through with it and I didn’t get my ass chewed out. 
    Flukes
  • @cdrive To be perfectly honest it sounds to me like he just Lucy footballed you. "Be patient with the money" sounds like asking someone on a date and them saying "oh yeah totally I'd love to!" and never committing to actual time and place. 

    I hope I'm wrong, but I think most people are far too easy on/understanding of bullshit excuses companies give. And depending on the company, getting a raise outside of the annual review period is actually the best time to get one, and you're actually less likely to get one during the normal review period since everyone else is looking for one at the same time and those raises may be more structured. 
    cdriveJaimieT
  • HatorianHatorian Dagobah
    edited May 2018
    cdrive said:
    Big boy power move today. Told the owner of my company that if he gave me a $20k raise, over the last few years I’d still be his cheapest, most  producing sales guy and most senior to the company.  I had packed all my personal stuff from my office into 2 boxes and put it in my car beforehand that morning because the owner can be a ruthless hothead and I was prepared for him to tell me to get the fuck out of his building.  This was easily the scariest, riskiest thing I’ve ever done ever. But it worked. Or at least, I didn’t get fired, the guy was worried I was telling him I was going to quit, and he told me he agreed.  Told me to be patient with the money.  (We’re pulling out of a multi-year economic slump that I’ve carried them out of and my timing was after landing some really big scores recently) @Hatorian how nuts or typical is this? To negotiate a substantial salary increase away from your review....I didn’t even have an offer in my back pocket but I did have headhunters with a few I had gotten into deeper levels of conversation with.  I’ve read a lot about this with articles on the web.  Practiced what I would say in the car many times and had my notes written on my phone. Today has just been crazy to process. Can’t believe I went through with it and I didn’t get my ass chewed out. 

    Wow. I appreciate you asking me like I’m some expert. But honestly this is all my opinion and advice. I have experience from both sides but really I can’t 100% put myself into your position.

    I would never have suggested that method but I was never in your situation. I always have and do work for global corps. Try that with an IBM and they probably thank you for clearing your desk in advance. do what you did to an SME who can’t replace you and they probably shit their pants and try to keep you. 

    I’m Glad it worked out for you. Here’s my life motto in a nutshell. Both business and personally. 

    “Learn from others, learn from them the things you do not have. Learn from their mistakes so you don’t need to make it yourself. But understand your life/situation is different. Learn from your own mistakes and learn your own knowledge. Then take that knowledge, use what you know, combine it together and make informed decisions that you feel will put you into the best position to succeed. Ultimately the most successful people are the ones that find ways to mitigate their weaknesses through others and find ways to take advantage of their strengths. There is no such thing is a perfect person. But there is a perfect methodology to success  ”

    If if you’re looking for my advice honestly I would not have done what you did. But it worked right? Cuz you identified your situation and made the correct assessment. Now just follow that philosophy every day. And eventually you will be making a million bucks a year....


    cdriveFlukes
  • FlukesFlukes Calgary, Canada
    cdrive said:
    Big boy power move today. Told the owner of my company that if he gave me a $20k raise, over the last few years I’d still be his cheapest, most  producing sales guy and most senior to the company.  I had packed all my personal stuff from my office into 2 boxes and put it in my car beforehand that morning because the owner can be a ruthless hothead and I was prepared for him to tell me to get the fuck out of his building.  This was easily the scariest, riskiest thing I’ve ever done ever. But it worked. Or at least, I didn’t get fired, the guy was worried I was telling him I was going to quit, and he told me he agreed.  Told me to be patient with the money.  (We’re pulling out of a multi-year economic slump that I’ve carried them out of and my timing was after landing some really big scores recently) @Hatorian how nuts or typical is this? To negotiate a substantial salary increase away from your review....I didn’t even have an offer in my back pocket but I did have headhunters with a few I had gotten into deeper levels of conversation with.  I’ve read a lot about this with articles on the web.  Practiced what I would say in the car many times and had my notes written on my phone. Today has just been crazy to process. Can’t believe I went through with it and I didn’t get my ass chewed out. 
    I don't have any advice. I just want to give you props. PROPS.
    cdriveJaimieT
  • FlukesFlukes Calgary, Canada
    edited May 2018
    Also, if you have any interest in a non-adversarial relationship with your employer, don't start that relationship with a lie. The best way to get honesty is to offer it.

    Life (or work) doesn't have to be Lord of the Flies.
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL

    Tip: never be honest about your previous salary, what you make plus 25% so you actually get a raise when switching jobs. 
    I think this is good advice if the company is going to potentially base their offer on your current salary. Of course, this could all be avoidable if companies would just be transparent in at least giving out a ballpark of what they are willing to pay for the right candidates, instead of putting it all on the candidate to pull a number out of the air. People looking for jobs have enough worry about without needing to worry about potentially pricing themselves out of a job or saying that they would work for far less than what the company would normally be willing to pay (then finding out later their co-workers make 10-15k per year more than them for the same position and qualifications).

    This is especially true in my case from my last transition of employment. I worked for a software company who was closing down our location They gave me an option to relocate or work there for the next 10 months and also get severance + a retention bonus if I stayed until the end of July 2018 (at which point I would be let go). Of course, I wasn't going to count on severance if I found a good job in the meantime. So I went on around 15 or so interviews over around a 4 month period.
    During the interview process, the company who hired me asked me how much I currently make. Now, this company also knows that my reason for wanting to leave the company I was currently employed by was due to them closing down our location, so I wasn't unemployed but I also wasn't holding all of the bargaining chips that a happily employed applicant normally has.
    I researched the position and around how much others had reported being paid at that company using websites such as Glassdoor and Salary . com. When they asked me how much I was currently earning, I told them it was around 10k more than my actual salary. 

    I'm glad I did, because when they offered me, they literally offered me the exact same amount as what I reported I was currently earning, plus .16 cents.

    So, if I had not embellished my salary, one could conclude that it likely would have cost me 10k per year. I have a wife and a 4 year old girl. They appreciated the lie.
  • HatorianHatorian Dagobah
    edited May 2018

    Tip: never be honest about your previous salary, what you make plus 25% so you actually get a raise when switching jobs. 
    I think this is good advice if the company is going to potentially base their offer on your current salary. Of course, this could all be avoidable if companies would just be transparent in at least giving out a ballpark of what they are willing to pay for the right candidates, instead of putting it all on the candidate to pull a number out of the air. People looking for jobs have enough worry about without needing to worry about potentially pricing themselves out of a job or saying that they would work for far less than what the company would normally be willing to pay (then finding out later their co-workers make 10-15k per year more than them for the same position and qualifications).

    This is especially true in my case from my last transition of employment. I worked for a software company who was closing down our location They gave me an option to relocate or work there for the next 10 months and also get severance + a retention bonus if I stayed until the end of July 2018 (at which point I would be let go). Of course, I wasn't going to count on severance if I found a good job in the meantime. So I went on around 15 or so interviews over around a 4 month period.
    During the interview process, the company who hired me asked me how much I currently make. Now, this company also knows that my reason for wanting to leave the company I was currently employed by was due to them closing down our location, so I wasn't unemployed but I also wasn't holding all of the bargaining chips that a happily employed applicant normally has.
    I researched the position and around how much others had reported being paid at that company using websites such as Glassdoor and Salary . com. When they asked me how much I was currently earning, I told them it was around 10k more than my actual salary. 

    I'm glad I did, because when they offered me, they literally offered me the exact same amount as what I reported I was currently earning, plus .16 cents.

    So, if I had not embellished my salary, one could conclude that it likely would have cost me 10k per year. I have a wife and a 4 year old girl. They appreciated the lie.
    I agree that can work. But I can also tell you that my last interview when we got to salary negotiation they wanted a pay slip. Now if I lied before this I probably don’t get the job. But if I was honest and told them my expectation was a 10-15% increase or your industry pays more so my salary expectation is higher is a much safer play. In my specific example I was honest and showed them a pay slip but told them I wanted more. But I was also in a better position where it was clear they saw my value and wanted me and knew I wasn’t going to switch jobs without better compensation. 

    I Guess it all comes down to how you want to play it. There’s nothing wrong with your method per se. And they maybe just believe you and make an offer. But if you get put into a prove it situation and you can’t back it up then I really don’t see how they offer the job when one of your first initial interactions with a new employer is lying to them. 

    It really comes down to risk or risk mitigation. You can risk it with your play or your can mitigate the risk by playing it safe but setting a higher salary expectation. 
    Flukes
  • FlukesFlukes Calgary, Canada

    Tip: never be honest about your previous salary, what you make plus 25% so you actually get a raise when switching jobs. 
    I think this is good advice if the company is going to potentially base their offer on your current salary. Of course, this could all be avoidable if companies would just be transparent in at least giving out a ballpark of what they are willing to pay for the right candidates, instead of putting it all on the candidate to pull a number out of the air. People looking for jobs have enough worry about without needing to worry about potentially pricing themselves out of a job or saying that they would work for far less than what the company would normally be willing to pay (then finding out later their co-workers make 10-15k per year more than them for the same position and qualifications).

    This is especially true in my case from my last transition of employment. I worked for a software company who was closing down our location They gave me an option to relocate or work there for the next 10 months and also get severance + a retention bonus if I stayed until the end of July 2018 (at which point I would be let go). Of course, I wasn't going to count on severance if I found a good job in the meantime. So I went on around 15 or so interviews over around a 4 month period.
    During the interview process, the company who hired me asked me how much I currently make. Now, this company also knows that my reason for wanting to leave the company I was currently employed by was due to them closing down our location, so I wasn't unemployed but I also wasn't holding all of the bargaining chips that a happily employed applicant normally has.
    I researched the position and around how much others had reported being paid at that company using websites such as Glassdoor and Salary . com. When they asked me how much I was currently earning, I told them it was around 10k more than my actual salary. 

    I'm glad I did, because when they offered me, they literally offered me the exact same amount as what I reported I was currently earning, plus .16 cents.

    So, if I had not embellished my salary, one could conclude that it likely would have cost me 10k per year. I have a wife and a 4 year old girl. They appreciated the lie.
    I would argue that it wasn't necessary to lie, but you know more about your specific situation than I do.

    I'd also argue that they appreciate the money, not the lie.

    I'm glad that it worked out for you. The lie was still a risk, but it paid of in your case. My overall advice is still to stick to honest answers. Honesty can still mean choosing what information to share with people not entitled to it.
    JaimieT
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    Hatorian said:
    I agree that can work. But I can also tell you that my last interview when we got to salary negotiation they wanted a pay slip. Now if I lied before this I probably don’t get the job. But if I was honest and told them my expectation was a 10-15% increase or your industry pays more so my salary expectation is higher is a much safer play. In my specific example I was honest and showed them a pay slip but told them I wanted more. But I was also in a better position where it was clear they saw my value and wanted me and knew I wasn’t going to switch jobs without better compensation. 

    I Guess it all comes down to how you want to play it. There’s nothing wrong with your method per se. And they maybe just believe you and make an offer. But if you get put into a prove it situation and you can’t back it up then I really don’t see how they offer the job when one of your first initial interactions with a new employer is lying to them. 

    It really comes down to risk or risk mitigation. You can risk it with your play or your can mitigate the risk by playing it safe but setting a higher salary expectation. 
    I agree that the best way is to just be honest. However, in that case the hiring party shouldn't treat your current salary as a bargaining tool. There cannot be any other possible reason for them to ask the question. Instead, simply the applicant how much they are wanting. That way, you're really getting down to the actual point of the question, and not negotiating based on your current salary. Because when I tell you my salary, my cards are all face up on the table and theirs aren't. 

    It's the equivalent of me asking an employer during an interview what the average salary of their current employees in my same position are. It wouldn't be illegal for them to answer since it doesn't disclose private information about any particular employee, but it's likely not something they would be willing to answer because it shows their cards in the negotiating game. And that is what it is. 

    But yes, I agree, if you make the mistake of lying about your salary to a company who would actually want documented proof, you're certainly putting yourself in a bad position, especially if you put the salary number on an application rather than just off-hand giving it to the interviewer verbally.
    Flukes
  •  This is an interesting thread -   I have a situation I would like to throw out and see if I can get some advice when looking for a job.  I have a strong resume and I have a lot of skills and training unique to my industry so I am pretty certain I will get call backs from sending my resume out there.  But I am TERRIBLE at phone interviews.  I am naturally very soft-spoken, and interview situations do make me a bit nervous.   I feel that I come across as timid and mushy mouthed over the phone.  My friends and family that I have asked agree with this assessment of myself so I know it is not just me being too self-conscious.  This is also a bit of an issue in face-to-face interviews tbh.   I have tried to address this directly in phone interviews, like by just saying straight out that I am not as wussy as I come across over the phone (worded a bit more professionally), and I got to the next step  and got my current job when I did that, but I don't think that is a good overall plan.

    I have had some success by trying vocal exercises prior to phone interviews and assuming a confident posture (there is a great TED Talk about how this helps)  but I am curious if anyone has advice or something they have used in the past if they have a similar issue.   I am currently employed but am thinking more and more of looking for a new job.  
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
     This is an interesting thread -   I have a situation I would like to throw out and see if I can get some advice when looking for a job.  I have a strong resume and I have a lot of skills and training unique to my industry so I am pretty certain I will get call backs from sending my resume out there.  But I am TERRIBLE at phone interviews.  I am naturally very soft-spoken, and interview situations do make me a bit nervous.   I feel that I come across as timid and mushy mouthed over the phone.  My friends and family that I have asked agree with this assessment of myself so I know it is not just me being too self-conscious.  This is also a bit of an issue in face-to-face interviews tbh.   I have tried to address this directly in phone interviews, like by just saying straight out that I am not as wussy as I come across over the phone (worded a bit more professionally), and I got to the next step  and got my current job when I did that, but I don't think that is a good overall plan.

    I have had some success by trying vocal exercises prior to phone interviews and assuming a confident posture (there is a great TED Talk about how this helps)  but I am curious if anyone has advice or something they have used in the past if they have a similar issue.   I am currently employed but am thinking more and more of looking for a new job.  

    I smile because they can hear it in your voice, stand up, and imagine the person is in the room with me. 
    majjam0770
  • edited May 2018
    Hatorian said:

    Tip: never be honest about your previous salary, what you make plus 25% so you actually get a raise when switching jobs. 
    I think this is good advice if the company is going to potentially base their offer on your current salary. Of course, this could all be avoidable if companies would just be transparent in at least giving out a ballpark of what they are willing to pay for the right candidates, instead of putting it all on the candidate to pull a number out of the air. People looking for jobs have enough worry about without needing to worry about potentially pricing themselves out of a job or saying that they would work for far less than what the company would normally be willing to pay (then finding out later their co-workers make 10-15k per year more than them for the same position and qualifications).

    This is especially true in my case from my last transition of employment. I worked for a software company who was closing down our location They gave me an option to relocate or work there for the next 10 months and also get severance + a retention bonus if I stayed until the end of July 2018 (at which point I would be let go). Of course, I wasn't going to count on severance if I found a good job in the meantime. So I went on around 15 or so interviews over around a 4 month period.
    During the interview process, the company who hired me asked me how much I currently make. Now, this company also knows that my reason for wanting to leave the company I was currently employed by was due to them closing down our location, so I wasn't unemployed but I also wasn't holding all of the bargaining chips that a happily employed applicant normally has.
    I researched the position and around how much others had reported being paid at that company using websites such as Glassdoor and Salary . com. When they asked me how much I was currently earning, I told them it was around 10k more than my actual salary. 

    I'm glad I did, because when they offered me, they literally offered me the exact same amount as what I reported I was currently earning, plus .16 cents.

    So, if I had not embellished my salary, one could conclude that it likely would have cost me 10k per year. I have a wife and a 4 year old girl. They appreciated the lie.
    I agree that can work. But I can also tell you that my last interview when we got to salary negotiation they wanted a pay slip. Now if I lied before this I probably don’t get the job. But if I was honest and told them my expectation was a 10-15% increase or your industry pays more so my salary expectation is higher is a much safer play. In my specific example I was honest and showed them a pay slip but told them I wanted more. But I was also in a better position where it was clear they saw my value and wanted me and knew I wasn’t going to switch jobs without better compensation. 

    I Guess it all comes down to how you want to play it. There’s nothing wrong with your method per se. And they maybe just believe you and make an offer. But if you get put into a prove it situation and you can’t back it up then I really don’t see how they offer the job when one of your first initial interactions with a new employer is lying to them. 

    It really comes down to risk or risk mitigation. You can risk it with your play or your can mitigate the risk by playing it safe but setting a higher salary expectation. 
    I'm going to agree with Hatorian here. Any time you lie about something you're taking a risk that someone might find out you've been dishonest. When they ask you, "How much are you making?", why not just say, "I'm looking for something in the XX-XXk range." 

    Obviously you can sidestep the question about your current salary, and if someone really presses (which is rare), you can always just be honest and say, "I'm making XXk, but I'm underpaid in my current position because [insert reason]. I'm looking for something that brings me more in line with my skills and experience, which is [whatever raise you want]." You could also refer to your total compensation rather than salary, which would include things like 401k matching, and included healthcare benefits, etc. If your salary is 50k, but you get a 5% match, and free healthcare, your total compensation might be 60k. 

     It's a negotiation and giving away your current salary is giving away some leverage, especially if you're looking for a big raise. That's why some states have passed laws to stop employers from asking for your current salary. 

    I'd rather be honest and just tell them what amount of money I want to take the job, than actually lie about what you're currently making. It's just not necessary and has a big downside if someone actually asks for proof. 
    ghm3cdrive
  • ghm3 said:
    @cdrive To be perfectly honest it sounds to me like he just Lucy footballed you. "Be patient with the money" sounds like asking someone on a date and them saying "oh yeah totally I'd love to!" and never committing to actual time and place. 

    I hope I'm wrong, but I think most people are far too easy on/understanding of bullshit excuses companies give. And depending on the company, getting a raise outside of the annual review period is actually the best time to get one, and you're actually less likely to get one during the normal review period since everyone else is looking for one at the same time and those raises may be more structured. 
    Hate to be a downer, since he seems really happy about how everything turned out, but I definitely thought the same thing. You went in asking for a raise, and you left without that raise. Now your employer knows you feel underpaid. I'd be surprised if they weren't considering how to replace you with someone else. 

    Think of it this way. If you were quitting your job today, how hard would it be for your employer to replace you? it makes a lot of sense from them to do everything they can to convince you to stay for as long as possible at your current salary. In the mean time they can develop a contingency plan if you do decide to quit. It could be hiring more staff to eventually replace you, or slowly moving your important work over to others, etc. 

    I'd be real interested to see if you actually get this raise. My experience is unless you get something in writing during that conversation it's probably not going to happen. 

    (My own personal bald move rule: A handshake agreement doesn't mean anything, always, always get something in writing.)


  • edited May 2018
    Giovanni said:
    Hatorian said:

    I'm going to agree with Hatorian here. Any time you lie about something you're taking a risk that someone might find out you've been dishonest. When they ask you, "How much are you making?", why not just say, "I'm looking for something in the XX-XXk range." 

    Obviously you can sidestep the question about your current salary, and if someone really presses (which is rare), you can always just be honest and say, "I'm making XXk, but I'm underpaid in my current position because [insert reason]. I'm looking for something that brings me more in line with my skills and experience, which is [whatever raise you want]." You could also refer to your total compensation rather than salary, which would include things like 401k matching, and included healthcare benefits, etc. If your salary is 50k, but you get a 5% match, and free healthcare, your total compensation might be 60k. 

     It's a negotiation and giving away your current salary is giving away some leverage, especially if you're looking for a big raise. That's why some states have passed laws to stop employers from asking for your current salary. 

    I'd rather be honest and just tell them what amount of money I want to take the job, than actually lie about what you're currently making. It's just not necessary and has a big downside if someone actually asks for proof. 
    I think this is mostly very good advice, but in my opinion you should never provide your salary information to any other employer. This question is sort of like a car salesman asking what your monthly budget is for a car payment. It's none of their goddamn business, and them knowing the answer puts them at a much better position and you at a worse one, that's why the want to know.  

    You shouldn't tell them what salary you want either, for the same reason. Whoever manages to withhold the most has an advantage. You should already have a solid idea of what the salary range is for the job you're applying for, and the company most likely has a structured pay range per position. If you were to ask them that range do you think they would tell you? Doubtful, so why hell would you tell them your private information? Don't. 

    Instead I would try something like this:

    "So what's you're current salary?" 

    "I'm not really comfortable discussing that, I'd prefer that we instead focus on value I can bring to this company instead of my other job a different company"

    It's doubtful that they're going to press the issue again there, but they will definitely try to pry it out of you again at a later time. The only exception I can think of where it would make sense to tell them is if you happen to somehow know that your salary is very high for the position you have, since it can imply that you're highly valued by your current company so they should highly value you as well. 

    "What salary do you have in mind for this position?"

    "I'm looking for a significant increase in responsibility and compensation; I don't have an exact number but I'm sure you have a good notion of what value I can bring to the company so I'm looking forward to your offer."

    Refuse to tell them what you make, and make them provide an offer. Ignore "total compensation" numbers, the only thing that should matter at first is your base salary, because 401k matching is nice but it doesn't pay your mortgage. 

    And do not accept their initial offer even if you love the number. Think about it, there's basically no way they're ever going to initially offer you the maximum they're willing to pay you, or if they actually do they would almost certainly make that clear when they make the offer. 

    I'd counter at least 10-15% above whatever their offer is, based on how much you think they need you and how badly you want the job. They're very unlikely to just accept your counter too.

    So say they offer you  $100k, and you counter with $115k, they'll probably come back to you with something in-between but closer to their initial offer, maybe $106k or something. Well even if you stop right there you just made an extra $6k/year instantly by just sending an e-mail or whatever. Good luck getting that anytime soon you're already hired.

    But instead of just accepting that offer, this is where I would start looking at the perks (unless you're more desperate for the job then you think they want you, in which case it's probably best to to just accept here). But this is a good time to counter with something like, "I think $106k would work fine if we could maybe [change whatever perk, add a week of vacation, better 401k or healthplan, whatever]." If they really want you they'll definitely make something work, you'll get something extra and truly maximize your offer. If not then fine, they'll just say no sorry we can't do that, and you just go from there, no big deal. 

    Oh and I'll be looking for a job here shortly so we'll see how much of this I can follow myself haha

  • HatorianHatorian Dagobah
     This is an interesting thread -   I have a situation I would like to throw out and see if I can get some advice when looking for a job.  I have a strong resume and I have a lot of skills and training unique to my industry so I am pretty certain I will get call backs from sending my resume out there.  But I am TERRIBLE at phone interviews.  I am naturally very soft-spoken, and interview situations do make me a bit nervous.   I feel that I come across as timid and mushy mouthed over the phone.  My friends and family that I have asked agree with this assessment of myself so I know it is not just me being too self-conscious.  This is also a bit of an issue in face-to-face interviews tbh.   I have tried to address this directly in phone interviews, like by just saying straight out that I am not as wussy as I come across over the phone (worded a bit more professionally), and I got to the next step  and got my current job when I did that, but I don't think that is a good overall plan.

    I have had some success by trying vocal exercises prior to phone interviews and assuming a confident posture (there is a great TED Talk about how this helps)  but I am curious if anyone has advice or something they have used in the past if they have a similar issue.   I am currently employed but am thinking more and more of looking for a new job.  
    The only way to overcome this is to gain confidence. Which means practice, practice, practice.

    ive led cold calling teams that made 250 calls a day and the first new time starters would be timid and easily give up when someone said no. 
    3/6 months later they sound like Wolf of Wall Street Leo in that one penny stock scene. 

    Practice with your family, friends, spouse, everyone and anyone who will. You will eventually gain confidence and sound better. 

    I also do reccomend standing and walking around a bit. Just be careful if your nervous you may get winded or tight walking around. 
    majjam0770
  • cdrivecdrive Houston, TX
    ghm3 said:
    @cdrive To be perfectly honest it sounds to me like he just Lucy footballed you. "Be patient with the money" sounds like asking someone on a date and them saying "oh yeah totally I'd love to!" and never committing to actual time and place. 

    I hope I'm wrong, but I think most people are far too easy on/understanding of bullshit excuses companies give. And depending on the company, getting a raise outside of the annual review period is actually the best time to get one, and you're actually less likely to get one during the normal review period since everyone else is looking for one at the same time and those raises may be more structured. 
    Well it happened today. I really started to get a sinking gut feeling I got Lucy-footballed like you described. After that meeting I was on a trip with the Big Boss.  We talked about it more and he tried to get me to do a handshake right then and there...and I didn't shake his hand cause we weren't seeing eye to eye, and we both acknowledged we have a problem.  Then soon after that they brought me in a closed meeting and proceeded with a series of metaphorical kicks to the dick, dressing me down.  And we had it out.  I kept my cool, kept it professional, but we had it out.  And that handshake was taken off the table. Pretty petty and cruel.  But the #1 thing was getting closure.  So I started seriously looking, and applying, responding to head hunters, revamping the resume, and I got a lot of interest which makes a guy feel good, y'know?  I'm real close with talks with one company.  It still might fall apart.  But today, 3 months after my 'power play', and 2 months after my closed-door beat down, they gave me a 15% raise that goes into effect immediately.  So, it's not all that I wanted but it is more than the handshake offer I refused.  Looking back, I definitely would not have done it that way again.  That was very risky...one could also argue that it was pretty fucking stupid.  Anyways...I'm getting some fancy whiskey tonight.  
    JaimieTDeeghm3
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  • cdrivecdrive Houston, TX
    Well dang......thanks.  Yeah I’m still talking. Funny cause the other company just called today and now I have more leverage.

    30%!? Triple Snap! 
  • It was risky but it wasn't stupid. A 15% raise is nothing to sneeze at, and it probably wouldn't have happened if you hadn't done that opening salvo. It's too bad it took so long but you got your raise and some perspective, win-win. If you follow up wth the headhunters and get better offers, you can take that back to the boss, or just take the other gig depending on how you feel.

    BTW I don't know why you tagged @Hatorian and not me for advice when I once successfully negotiated a 30% raise for myself OH SNAP!!!! lol
    Everyone comes to me for advice. And honestly I give them the shittiest advice possible because there is nothing more fun than watching people crash and burn. As the Joker would say. I’m an agent of Chaos. 
    cdrive
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  • So yeah, I think it's a dumb idea to start out a relationship with a potential new employer by lying, but if you do decide to reveal your current compensation as part of the negotiations, do include all compensation. Some employers pay all insurance premiums, offer bonuses which can usually be expected, etc.

    If this is income you can expect in your current role, you need to consider that when exploring other opportunities.

    As to the interview itself, this is more or less difficult based on your personality type, but I like to try to talk to the person as an actual human. Like, we are two (or more) people here getting to know each other, and trying to figure out if this role is suitable for both parties.

    Unless its some sort of technical check, or non-traditional format, the interview is really just to make sure that you are a reasonable person that can operate in a social organization. It can be difficult to not feel a bit nervous about having so much on the line with a single conversation, but it's important to realize why you feel that way, and try to take it in with the overall context of the situation.
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