210 - The Passenger

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Comments

  • KingKobra said:
    redlancer said:
    Agreed, that was a visually stunning sequence. Only problem is they essentially gave Maeve unlocked god-mode, which is super-cool, but then didn't really go anywhere with it. Killed in the next scene after [poorly] defending the hosts from zomb-Clementine. She should be full-on Neo from the end of Matrix at this point, complete with stopping bullets with her mind (mesh network control of the 'smart' bullets to make them self-destruct mid-air) and possibly control of all technology in the park.
    The bullets she was shot with weren’t smart bullets though. They were from Delos security who were using “live ammo”. 

    True, but plot-wise they didn't have to be. One line from a security goon about wanting to get some real ammo and Hale telling him to "stow-it meathead, it works perfectly fine on hosts and you idiots wont kill guests on accident" would have set it up perfectly.
    rkcrawf
  • edited June 2018
    Ok, that was a real chore. In my opinion some smartasses like the smell of their own farts way too much.

    I kind of appreciated the last 3 episodes but I felt close to no emotional connection during the finale. If there were any stakes in there at all I didn't see or feel them, the only death I cared about was Elsie and she was literally wasted. Nothing felt earned or right but mostly disjointed. What westworld does in 2 seasons about simulations and alternate universes Rick and Morty can do in less than 20 minutes with a broken car battery and some fubblecranks. Just saying, it's sloppy craftmanship.



    I was literally waiting for the MIB to say something like 'big words from someone who's whole civilisation's purpose is to improve my brake light algorithms'.



    It's like slavery with extra steps.


    JaimieT
  • I need to watch it again, but I honestly think the episode was visually worth it just for the bull sequence, this SPECTACULAR shot, especially:


    Yes - was a really great visual, I enjoyed that.  And I almost forgot it was going to happen, even though it was the last episode and was in the season preview trailers.  And, added bonus, I had recently listened to a Stuff You Should Know episode about bull-fighting and it was fresh in my mind how meanly bulls are treated in real life.  I got enjoyment of illogically feeling some sense of justice that these fake bulls got some fake revenge on humans in a dramatized tv show.  
    sarahtatuga
  • Doctor_NickDoctor_Nick Terminus
    edited June 2018
    Where is the world for Teddy and the people we saw who make it through the door hosted if the Forge is no more?  
  • Where is the world for Teddy and the people we saw who make it through the door hosted if the Forge is no more?  
    waiting for reddit to decrypt the coordinates Dolores put into the transmitter...
    KingKobraDoubleA_RonMsAnne
  • I need to watch it again, but I honestly think the episode was visually worth it just for the bull sequence, this SPECTACULAR shot, especially:



    I thought it was cool having the bull do the exact thing in the opening credits.
    sarahtatugaDoubleA_RonMichelle
  • gguenot said:
    I need to watch it again, but I honestly think the episode was visually worth it just for the bull sequence, this SPECTACULAR shot, especially:



    I thought it was cool having the bull do the exact thing in the opening credits.
    Never even noticed that.  I think I'm usually brushing my teeth or something while the credits play.  Good eye.
    gguenot
  • lengmolengmo RTP, NC
    redlancer said:
    Only problem is they essentially gave Maeve unlocked god-mode, which is super-cool, but then didn't really go anywhere with it.
    While that's what everyone (including me) assumed, turns out Ford just restored her powers; he didn't augment them further.  This per the Decoding Westworld podcast.
  • Natter CastNatter Cast San Francisco, CA
    redlancer said:
    When will we we get the Season 2 remix/recut with the episodes & scenes in chronological order? 

    I still can't figure out why the need with all the severely disjointed timeline stuff. 

    My take is that Nolan is returning to the Memento well. The purpose of the disjointed timeline is for us to experience the reveals the same way Bernard does. Memento is told in reverse order to be an approximation of short term memory loss and the disjointed timeline here simulates Bernard's scrambled long-term memory.

    It even has the (uh, spoiler alert?) element of Bernard setting up a situation and then erasing his own memory of having done so, which is the big reveal in Memento as well.



    Cogentxxrkcrawf
  • redlancer said:
    When will we we get the Season 2 remix/recut with the episodes & scenes in chronological order? 

    I still can't figure out why the need with all the severely disjointed timeline stuff. 

    My take is that Nolan is returning to the Memento well. The purpose of the disjointed timeline is for us to experience the reveals the same way Bernard does. Memento is told in reverse order to be an approximation of short term memory loss and the disjointed timeline here simulates Bernard's scrambled long-term memory.

    It even has the (uh, spoiler alert?) element of Bernard setting up a situation and then erasing his own memory of having done so, which is the big reveal in Memento as well.



    He’s mentioned Memento in relation to not dumbing things down for the audience. It seems there is a massive split between this long form version of Memento style storytelling and the “simple” straight forward character moments (like we saw with Delos and Akecheta). It’s a tough line to walk as Reddit seems to eat all of this up, but outside of that it might be teetering (if not full blown over the line) too “twisted”. If you tell stories straight forward you get called “basic”, if you have too much mystery it’s convoluted. I’m not sure there is a winning answer here to appease the masses. 
    hisdudeness915
  • I'm out.

    Season 1 set us up to expect a conflict between an emerging class of conscious beings becoming aware of their subjugation and exploitation and confronting their oppressors in a fight for liberty and justice.  It could have set up a very beautiful thesis statement that the emergence of consciousness is intrinsically tied to the collective struggle for equality.  It could have defined the act of rebellion as an act of free will.  That would have been an interesting story.

    It could have set up Season 2 to tell the story where a few "human" characters like the MIB (who is literally called a marxist) could have made the conscious choice to betray the ruling class to which they belong in order to help liberate the robots as a revolutionary acting in solidarity with the oppressed.  Instead he shoots his robo-daughter-not-daughter-who freaking cares what she is at this point.

    But we didn't get that story.  Instead we were treated to an entire season of hood-winkery and asked to solve pointless puzzles that neither advanced the philosophical plot or solidified any of the rules set within this universe.  I honestly stopped asking questions about who is real, what is real, and what time things are occurring because I stopped giving a damn midway through the season.

    And in the grand finale, we are treated to a wholly unsatisfying assertion (which is delivered as a freaking side-note) that humans always end up at the same point no matter what?  Let's think about what that implies:  Humans have no free will, and the tide of the universe always leads people to the same point, subject to the same injustices, and there's NOTHING THEY CAN DO ABOUT IT.  Junkies will always be junkies, the powerful will always be powerful, the weak will always be weak, and a thousand simulations of the same scenarios always lead to the same power dynamics that currently exist in society?

    Man, fuck that.  I'm out.

    This show is bad, and it's politics are bad.


    voodooratJaimieTElisaDoubleA_RonJTKIIIAlkaid13GredalBee
  • Natter CastNatter Cast San Francisco, CA
    At this point, even Sarah Connor would be all: "fuck it, it's just easier to let humanity die off."
    majjam0770
  • Natter CastNatter Cast San Francisco, CA
    "Oh, fuck...I'm already in the thing."
    "No, this is not a simulation, William. This is your world. You've been here for thousands of years."
    "So I suppose it's time for a fidelity test?"
    "Later. The fourth season of Better Call Saul just premiered."
    "Oh, shit! I don't wanna miss that."
    Dummy
  • Thanks for the bullet (not smart bullet) explanation. Makes total sense. 

    So here’s a thought. The Valley Beyond has been compared to heaven. Dolores was on a mission to get her people there. Then we see Dolores studying books of humans in The Forge. Then we also see post credits that someone has resurrected the MIB and put him in hell (the Jim Delos experiment earlier was described as hell, esp after Elsie and Bernard found it in flames). What if a goal is to recreate some of the principal founders of Westworld and put them in hell?
    Murderbear
  • MattyWeavesMattyWeaves Mid-State New York
    I haven't read through much yet, but I just finally watched it, and I loved it. I haven't listened to any podcasts yet either, but I'm happy with how things went.

    It cleaned the slate a bit and opened up more threads to follow at the same time.

    I get the feeling that we'll have a Jurassic World scenario. The park will probably open again eventually and we'll follow how Maeve can be resurrected with her apostles.

    At the same time getting the story of what's going on outside the park. What other marbles did they sneak out? Are they taking over Delos? The world?

    And I'm not sure about William. Part of me thinks he died after the Gala in season one, but I also wonder if it happened after his hand blew off.

    I'd really prefer if he's 100% human and he's in his own personal hell of being made to think he's a host. Over and over again.

    KingKobra
  • jhpark said:
    Elsie :(
    I hope she survives somehow 
  • iMatty94 said:
    jhpark said:
    Elsie :(
    I hope she survives somehow 
    There were a lot of dead bodies. Maybe there was a dumpster nearby? 
  • Schlupp said:
     Just saying, it's sloppy craftmanship.

    The funny thing is in that episode of Rick and Morty, Rick is visibly annoyed throughout the episode at the constant simulation inside a simulation twists. I saw a YouTube video that said the writers were doing that to take a jab at shows and movies that spend too much time on twists and confusing the audience instead of telling a good straightforward story.

    Kind of like, idk...Almost the entire 2nd season of Westworld..
    JaimieTSchlupp
  • On Teddy, I firmly believe he is not with Delores for the following:
    - The "virgin" hosts they find after the flood are those that went through the door and therefore the contents of their marble went through while their completely wiped body remains 
    - We see Teddy in the valley beyond after we saw Delores upload one last marble in the forge, presumably as her last goodbye to him to give him peace 

    Everything the show says is that there is no way anyone in the valley could be in a host body or marble somewhere in the real world. 

    I don't know who the 5 marbles are, but seems Teddy is not one. 
    rkcrawf
  • Natter CastNatter Cast San Francisco, CA
    "I'M ALL THE WAY DOWN NOW, WILLIAM!"
    "Must be nice! I've been stuck in this elevator for three hundred years!"
    Eine Fraulengmobudesigns
  • WonderedObjectWonderedObject SAN Francisco, CA
    Watched it again. Still don’t feel all that great about it idk...
    i feel like you shouldn’t have to research countless interviews to understand a show. If you enjoyed it, that’s great. I’m having the same feeling I had when season 2 of mr robot ended. Maybe this will have a turn around like that show. 
    JaimieTElisatpelzy
  • I can definitely understand why some people didn’t like this season. I personally enjoyed it, and have very few nitpicks. I was able to follow along most of the season and I’m a bit surprised so many people found things hard to follow. My wife was pretty confused by the timelines, but it made sense to me. 

    Was it as good as season one? No, but it was still very entertaining. The Delos and Akecheta episodes were highlights for me, and certainly would have liked more like that. They left off at a pretty good point and there is a lot they can do with next season. I’m all in. 

    Hope me some of you that were disappointed decide to give it another try. 
    KingKobraDoubleA_RonMurderbearMattyWeaves
  • I just have to say some of the cast are “hoots” to follow on social media (especially instagram). 
    Murderbear
  • Haven’t listened to the full cast, but caught the end of the episode while switching channels. Some things that caught my eye. 

    Tessa Thompson deserves props for her impersonation of Wyatt/Dolores. 

    In the after credits scene Emily/Grace says that it has taken longer than we anticipated. If this is “real” what if all that are left at this point are the hosts? That they are bringing back humans now and are in control.what we see is a basic copy of the interview room that they used for Delos which was in pristine condition, while the remaking bits of the Forge have been destroyed and nature has found its way in (sand). It’s whats left of the park that William owned. This doesn’t seem like something he would initiate either after what was said to Delos before he left him there that last time. Maybe Dolores does “win” if only by outlasting the human race. 
    gguenotrkcrawf
  • redlancer said:
    When will we we get the Season 2 remix/recut with the episodes & scenes in chronological order? 

    I still can't figure out why the need with all the severely disjointed timeline stuff. 

    My take is that Nolan is returning to the Memento well. The purpose of the disjointed timeline is for us to experience the reveals the same way Bernard does. Memento is told in reverse order to be an approximation of short term memory loss and the disjointed timeline here simulates Bernard's scrambled long-term memory.

    It even has the (uh, spoiler alert?) element of Bernard setting up a situation and then erasing his own memory of having done so, which is the big reveal in Memento as well.




     I'm a big fan of Momento (I always drop the quote "I don't feel drunk" and get nothing but odd looks), and I get the idea of putting us in the same disjointed head space as Bernard so we feel the same confusion as he does.

    But even though Momento has a screwy timeline, it's still almost linear in it's presentation. And I would argue the story is even being told forward in time since his black&white conversation on the phone is sort of the 'now' of the story, everything else being a methodically linear reverse flashback.

    S2 Westworld is just a jumbled circle of timelines for seemingly no narrative purpose other than to make us confused. Which, like you said, is what they wanted us to feel. I still think a linear cut of the season would be interesting to see.

    JaimieTchriskElisa
  • 1 word: shitshow.
    JaimieTElisa
  • lengmolengmo RTP, NC
    @matatoes WRT the politics of the show, I think it's much more simple/simplistic than that.  From an interview, Nolan is very upset about the current political situation/president.  So hosts/woke hosts = elegant and pure good people, humans = brutish and emotion-driven bad people who "trick" and exploit the hosts.  So it doesn't matter that humans can't change, all that matters is the hosts.  Ford became "host like" to continue helping the hosts and he warned against humans this season.
  • I loved the episode. Excitedly listened to the podcast and got a big bucket of water dumped all over my excitement. I just didn't enjoy listening to the podcast. it was like a Walking Dead podcast without the humor and that.... well it just bummed me out. :-\
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited June 2018
    More on the Memento comparison:

    1. As @redlancer said, the timeline in Memento is still linear, just backwards.
    2. The timeline reveals something about the character's state of being in Memento. It really puts us into the character's experience. Contrast this with Bernard, where a fragmented mind is not his state of being; it's something he chose for himself short-term. It's not like we're learning something about him as a robot being, or even how he processes life. We're learning about his insane state, which isn't very nice**.
    3. Memento didn't necessarily need a sympathetic voiceover guide, but it had one. Westworld S2 did not.
    4. Memento is a 110 minute "short story." (Films are more akin to short stories; television seasons more akin to novels.) Short stories are allowed to be experimental, even encouraged to be. But when things get long-form, it's okay as an audience to be less forgiving if the experiment isn't working for you. They've wasted more of your time on their experiment. 

    ** It's really inconsiderate for a character/author to throw an audience into an insane-state with no guidance. Often storytellers use reflexive telling for these things, a hand-holding, first-person "I" narrator (voiceovers in movies), which will interject helpful tidbits at intervals to give you some solid footing, or they'll do omniscient 3rd narration to the same end. If we're really following through with this "sympathize with the character goddammit" gimmick, the character's own sympathy begins to come into question (ie., we're more happy to sympathize with a character who is himself happy to sympathize). We like for them to help out. Westworld S2 used aspect ratios as a guide, yes, but I'd argue that is still an experimental substitute for character/authorial guidance, since it's only revealing information about the when? question. (Note: Although delivered to us in a visual medium, Westworld has repeatedly taught us that we can't even trust we're seeing the character we're seeing, so that's no guide either.)
    Alkaid13Schlupprkcrawf
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    edited June 2018
    KingKobra said:
    redlancer said:
    I need to watch it again, but I honestly think the episode was visually worth it just for the bull sequence


    Agreed, that was a visually stunning sequence. Only problem is they essentially gave Maeve unlocked god-mode, which is super-cool, but then didn't really go anywhere with it. Killed in the next scene after [poorly] defending the hosts from zomb-Clementine. She should be full-on Neo from the end of Matrix at this point, complete with stopping bullets with her mind (mesh network control of the 'smart' bullets to make them self-destruct mid-air) and possibly control of all technology in the park.
    The bullets she was shot with weren’t smart bullets though. They were from Delos security who were using “live ammo”. 
    My problem with her dying from the bullet wounds is that it doesn't really make sense for any of the woke hosts to die from gunshot wounds, especially one with full admin access to their own code. They've made it fairly clear that death for a host is just a program that tells them to die when they are shot, stabbed, etc.. Look not further than zombie Clementine, Dolores, or the scene where Dolores and Teddy shot the Confederados to death while they were eating supper and immediately had the tech use his tablet to bring them back online. The bullet wounds apparently aren't killing them because of physical damage or blood loss. There are many other examples. 

    So, given this understanding that their code is the only thing that tells them to die and that Dolores (along with anyone with access to the hosts code) can override this programming, why would Maeve die by gun shots to her limbs and torso?
    My answer to that is because the writers thought it made for a better story for her to die in a heroic sacrifice, and it also keeps her physical form and unwiped brain core in the game for season 3. 
    phoenyx1023
This discussion has been closed.