US Politics Vol. 6: A Song of Fire and Fury - The Winds of Midterms

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  • hitmy said:
    Geeze Emn, wonder how Gorsuch made it through the evil dem smear machine.
    He wasn’t replacing Kennedy, plus it was too far from the next election to potentially block a seat and run it as an issue. 
    What does that have to do with anything? This is the Supreme Court after all. If it is so easy to just find (multiple) people to go public with accusations of sexual violence, then surely they would have done the same for Gorsuch.
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  • CretanBullCretanBull Toronto
    edited September 2018
    Bye Ted!





    AWESOME!!

    Ted Cruz just got chased out of a DC restaurant pic.twitter.com/i5GE90M7hl

    — jordan (@JordanUhl) September 25, 2018
    JaimieT
  • hitmy said:
    hitmy said:
    Geeze Emn, wonder how Gorsuch made it through the evil dem smear machine.
    He wasn’t replacing Kennedy, plus it was too far from the next election to potentially block a seat and run it as an issue. 
    What does that have to do with anything? This is the Supreme Court after all. If it is so easy to just find (multiple) people to go public with accusations of sexual violence, then surely they would have done the same for Gorsuch.

    Plus it was worse in the minds of most democrats, since Gorsuch was taking the stolen Merrick Garland seat.
  • FlukesFlukes Calgary, Canada
    “They just keep saying ‘He was in high school—boys will be boys,’” says Maurielle, a 17-year-old from Houston. “But I’m in high school—I don’t want that to happen to me.”
    This is exactly where I keep ending up on this. We all pay lip service to educating young people about consent and changing the culture that teaches young men that "no means keep trying." Social conservatives are so focused on Roe that they are willing to send teen boys the message that sexual assault isn't a big deal and tell teen girls they're disposable.

    There are plenty of regressive assholes dying to overturn Roe who will gladly "answer Trump's call." This is yet another example of wanting to win at all costs - as long as someone else pays the bill. We've seen plenty of examples in this very forum of this attitude and I think it's bullshit. It should matter how you get what you want and the price matters even if you're not the one to pay it.
    CretanBullJaimieTMrXDee
  • Trump brags to the UN General Assembly about how great his Administration has been and the members literally laugh at him.


    Flukes
  • emnofseattleemnofseattle Mason County, Washington USA
    Don't you know, women everywhere are just dying to label themselves with this and bring much scorn and death threats upon themselves.
    Some people are in fact willing to make sacrifices for a cause. Especially temporary ones if they feel the consequence is protecting Roe v Wade. 


  • emnofseattleemnofseattle Mason County, Washington USA
    Flukes said:
    “They just keep saying ‘He was in high school—boys will be boys,’” says Maurielle, a 17-year-old from Houston. “But I’m in high school—I don’t want that to happen to me.”
    This is exactly where I keep ending up on this. We all pay lip service to educating young people about consent and changing the culture that teaches young men that "no means keep trying." Social conservatives are so focused on Roe that they are willing to send teen boys the message that sexual assault isn't a big deal and tell teen girls they're disposable.

    There are plenty of regressive assholes dying to overturn Roe who will gladly "answer Trump's call." This is yet another example of wanting to win at all costs - as long as someone else pays the bill. We've seen plenty of examples in this very forum of this attitude and I think it's bullshit. It should matter how you get what you want and the price matters even if you're not the one to pay it.
    No, you got that all wrong. It’s the people backing the accusers using the “Boys will be boys argument” the defense is “it didn’t happen” and then showing the facts, the lack of agreement amongst witnesses, the lack of ability to show a location, the lack of connection between the accuser and accusee to explain why they would be at 5 person party together in the first place, the fact that on the second accusation there accuser herself had tried to call ahead and get other witnesses (who deny it) to say it happened. “Boys will be boys” is being used to say Kavanaugh is guilty purely because he’s a man. The defense is based on the statement the events referred to didn’t happen at all. That’s not “boys will be boys” 




  • FlukesFlukes Calgary, Canada
    Don't you know, women everywhere are just dying to label themselves with this and bring much scorn and death threats upon themselves.
    Some people are in fact willing to make sacrifices for a cause. Especially temporary ones if they feel the consequence is protecting Roe v Wade. 


    There's no doubt that these woman are making a huge sacrifice - and not a temporary one - by coming forward. That doesn't mean they want to. It's not hard to imagine they feel a responsibility to come forward in these circumstances. That's not the same as a strong desire to subject themselves to the treatment they're enduring.

    I admire their willingness to pay a personal price and in my opinion it only strengthens their credibility.
  • FlukesFlukes Calgary, Canada
    edited September 2018
    Flukes said:
    “They just keep saying ‘He was in high school—boys will be boys,’” says Maurielle, a 17-year-old from Houston. “But I’m in high school—I don’t want that to happen to me.”
    This is exactly where I keep ending up on this. We all pay lip service to educating young people about consent and changing the culture that teaches young men that "no means keep trying." Social conservatives are so focused on Roe that they are willing to send teen boys the message that sexual assault isn't a big deal and tell teen girls they're disposable.

    There are plenty of regressive assholes dying to overturn Roe who will gladly "answer Trump's call." This is yet another example of wanting to win at all costs - as long as someone else pays the bill. We've seen plenty of examples in this very forum of this attitude and I think it's bullshit. It should matter how you get what you want and the price matters even if you're not the one to pay it.
    No, you got that all wrong. It’s the people backing the accusers using the “Boys will be boys argument” the defense is “it didn’t happen” and then showing the facts, the lack of agreement amongst witnesses, the lack of ability to show a location, the lack of connection between the accuser and accusee to explain why they would be at 5 person party together in the first place, the fact that on the second accusation there accuser herself had tried to call ahead and get other witnesses (who deny it) to say it happened. “Boys will be boys” is being used to say Kavanaugh is guilty purely because he’s a man. The defense is based on the statement the events referred to didn’t happen at all. That’s not “boys will be boys” 




    Pushing through a confirmation without a proper investigation sends the message that it doesn't matter whether it happened or not.

    “Boys will be boys” is being used to say Kavanaugh is guilty purely because he’s a man.
    No, it's not. See, I can just assert things too.


    It’s the people backing the accusers using the “Boys will be boys argument”
    For instance, Stephen L. Miller, a writer for Fox News’s website, tweeted that the allegations didn’t amount to sexual assault, but rather “drunk teenagers playing seven minutes of heaven.” The radio-show host and columnist Dennis Prager advised his readers not to be shocked if a future Republican nominee “is accused of sexual misconduct … from when he was in elementary school.” Going back to an even earlier developmental stage to make her point, the Washington Post columnist Kathleen Parker wondered, “What’s next, his potty training?" On Instagram, Donald Trump Jr. engaged in his own infantilizing of Ford’s accusations, likening the scene she described to the result of a schoolyard crush.
    These people are "backing the accusers?"

  • Yeah I’m pretty much over this type of argument now, if this were a first offense type thing I’d let it slide but since it’s like the hundredth time we’re just gonna end things here. 
    CretanBulldarwinfeeshy
  • FlukesFlukes Calgary, Canada
    Alkaid13 said:
    Yeah I’m pretty much over this type of argument now, if this were a first offense type thing I’d let it slide but since it’s like the hundredth time we’re just gonna end things here. 
    But... this time I was totally going to change Emn's mind!
    CretanBull
  • Trump brags to the UN General Assembly about how great his Administration has been and the members literally laugh at him.


    Fox edited out the laughter, of course. 


    JaimieTCretanBull
  • Alkaid13Alkaid13 Georgia
    edited September 2018
    Yeah that’s part of the issue as well, at a certain point after you keep making false statements and people keep having to correct you on your ignorance you either have to put some effort in or just admit you’re unwilling to learn from your ignorance and we’re no longer in the business of teaching people who are unwilling to learn. Look at your life, look at your choices, ask yourself how you got here, and do some independent research next time.
    Dee
  • My apolitical wife was watching the news with me last night and saw the clip from Kavanaugh’s Fox News interview where he proclaimed his virginity for “many years” after high school.

    She laughed out loud and said that this is the kind of crap where he’s really going to catch himself. Unnecessary to proclaim, nobody has alleged actual intercourse up to this point, and it begs for a follow up of how he defines virginity. Is a handy sexual relations? Is oral moral? Is the poop-hole a loop-hole? What if it’s just the tip for a minute, does that count?

    These kinds of uncomfortable questions are what Kavanaugh himself advocated that President Clinton be subject to during the 90s.
    ”It may not be our job to impose sanctions on him, but it is our job to make his pattern of revolting behavior clear - piece by painful piece - on Monday.”

    If a lame duck president who could not serve for more than a couple of years should be questioned in such a way on the record and face removal from office because he’s such a dirty birdy, then it’d be pretty hypocritical to refuse to answer similar questions ahead of a lifetime appointment that could have a significant affect on the nature of government for a generation.
    FlukesJaimieTasmallcat
  • Other silly tidbits:
    I’ve always treated women with dignity and respect. #RenateAlumni
    (regarding Avenatti’s allegations) I’ve never done any such thing, known about any such thing... Never saw or heard of any such thing.
    (ever drink so much that that you couldn’t remember the night before) No, that never happened.
    (ever said to anyone “I don’t remember anything about last night.”) No, that did not happen. #TreasurerOfKegCityClub #100KegsOrBust

    This interview was obviously not under oath, but if his testimony is similar on Thursday there are a lot of openings to attack the credibility of it. Renate, for example, found out about the alumni thing and asked that her name be taken off of a letter of support she had signed. She does not appear to be feeling very dignified or respected about the issue.

    FlukesJaimieTtom_g
  • TravisTravis CA
    edited September 2018
    Also, can someone explain this asinine notion of his "calendar" to me? Are we meant to believe that he, as a teenager, kept a detailed calendar which would include honest details of his life and that he still has it? Not to mention, is his personal calendar going to contain things like "went to a party, got drunk?" First off, unless he didn't go to a single party in high school (which would certainly fly completely contrary to his mega-douche yearbook page), they still haven't honed in on what party it was so what does that even add up to? I literally almost spat my coffee out yesterday when they said he would provide his "calendar." What the fuck is that? How stupid are we supposed to be?

    Also, I think sexual assault or no, after reading that guy's yearbook page I don't want him deciding anything on a Supreme Court level. Like all of us, I went to high school with THAT guy. Even if none of this had come out, all I need is that page. Fuck that guy. 

    Also, to this Trump "why'd it take 30+ years? Where's the police report?" shit. I was touched inappropriately when I was a child and it really didn't resurface to my mind until my early 20s. I just repressed it, and even after that I only told my immediate family (it was my cousin and there was a lot of baggage). Anyways, it just laid dormant in my system until one night it flooded out. I suppose I was aware that he was a creep who had been creepy to me. It wasn't TOTAL repression, but it floated around in my consciousness like unconnected dots. Even after that realization, I still didn't know what to do with the knowledge (aside from a fair amount of drinking, crying, and getting really angry). So many years had gone by. His character was already known by then because of other incidents and adding my story wasn't going to change anything, particularly all those years later. I was almost 3 times the age that I was at the time. The relevant part though is that this notion of a timeline problem is false. Sometimes (more accurately "quite often" according to my understanding) these things take time to process. Sometimes after all that time you just want to move on with your life, but it doesn't change what happened. When my cousin was on trial (this happened in my 30s. Apparently he hadn't changed as everyone had been promised. He is in prison now.) I spoke to the police and told them what I could, but even then, knowing that he had been inappropriate with me, I kept telling them "this is what happened, but I would be a terrible witness" still doubting that there was no blame to be placed on a 7 or 8 year old kid having trouble in the bathroom. These are complicated stories and difficult things to put out in the world. Filled with emotion and doubt and fear. Is it completely outside the realm of possibility that Kavanaugh is innocent? No. I wasn't there. I don't know these people, but they have nothing to gain but a world of shit and to hear these various Republicans in the Senate or the White House speaking as they are is so fucking disgusting I can't stand it. From "where's the police report" to "this little hiccup" to a just out and out dismissal of these women. Accusations true or false, these people are entirely soulless. Seeing President Trump's comments on this yesterday (I'm not sure if they were from yesterday or the day before, but the "it's been 30 years, where's the police report" line he's been towing) sickened me.
    JaimieTTxSandManDeeFlukesShumCretanBulltelephoneofmadness
  • DeeDee Adelaide
    @Travis I feel for you, and I get exactly what you’re saying. I wasn’t abused as a child (thankfully), but I did have experiences when I was a teen/young adult that in hindsight I can see were clearly sexual assault, but at the time just made me feel bad and uncomfortable and I couldn’t articulate why. They had a lasting impact on me too, but again, it’s only in recent years I’ve recognised that. And it’s not just me - nearly every woman I know has at least one experience in their past that still haunts them. If we’d all recognised these things for what they were back in the day and marched off to police stations, I could just imagine the reactions. 

    Why don’t people report sexual assaults? Read the news and then the comments on the news - you’ll see why. 
    TravisFlukesCretanBull
  • TravisTravis CA
    edited September 2018
    Dee said:
    @Travis I feel for you, and I get exactly what you’re saying. I wasn’t abused as a child (thankfully), but I did have experiences when I was a teen/young adult that in hindsight I can see were clearly sexual assault, but at the time just made me feel bad and uncomfortable and I couldn’t articulate why. They had a lasting impact on me too, but again, it’s only in recent years I’ve recognised that. And it’s not just me - nearly every woman I know has at least one experience in their past that still haunts them. If we’d all recognised these things for what they were back in the day and marched off to police stations, I could just imagine the reactions. 

    Why don’t people report sexual assaults? Read the news and then the comments on the news - you’ll see why. 
    Thanks @Dee. I appreciate that, and I'm really sorry for what has happened to you as well. As if on queue with your last sentence, I just saw a quote where Donald Trump said (paraphrasing, but sentiment was just as clear) that the second accuser (I feel bad that her name is escaping me) doesn't count because she was admittedly drunk at the time. I literally got a little nauseous when I read it. That's our President folks. What a disgrace.

    At any rate, hopefully that sort of mentality of recognizing that you have been victimized will be a true positive to come out of the me too movement. I think the awareness that it brings to the subject and these sorts of situations being exposed for what they are is the ground that needs to be broken to start empowering people.
    DeeFlukesCretanBull
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  • DeeDee Adelaide
    Dee said:
    @Travis I feel for you, and I get exactly what you’re saying. I wasn’t abused as a child (thankfully), but I did have experiences when I was a teen/young adult that in hindsight I can see were clearly sexual assault, but at the time just made me feel bad and uncomfortable and I couldn’t articulate why. They had a lasting impact on me too, but again, it’s only in recent years I’ve recognised that. And it’s not just me - nearly every woman I know has at least one experience in their past that still haunts them. If we’d all recognised these things for what they were back in the day and marched off to police stations, I could just imagine the reactions. 

    Why don’t people report sexual assaults? Read the news and then the comments on the news - you’ll see why. 
    Yeah and the other thing about @Dee and  I, and these women who are just a bit older than us, when we were high school and college age, when things like this happened, there was such a different attitude that you really, literally often didn't even think of with the label of "sexual assault" even though you felt it was creepy and wrong, and everyone knew it was wrong. So it didn't feel like there was any recourse unless someone was "actually" raped and "rape" meant forcible intercourse.
    When I was about 16, there was this guy friend of ours who was really into my friend, and she liked him as a friend but she wasn’t into him. He came round to her house to hang out one time, and then he wouldn’t leave until she had sex with him. She didn’t want to - she wasn’t interested in him - but he would not go, and eventually she did have sex just to get him to leave. I remember afterwards she was angry and upset, and we were all a bit surprised because he was a “nice” guy (heh - didn’t know about those yet), but myself and her other friends didn’t make much else of it other than bitching about him a bit. She seemed none the worse for wear and this guy continued to be in our friend circle for a couple of years after. It wasn’t til years later that my friend (and myself) realised she had actually been raped. 
    JaimieTJoshTheBlackCretanBullTravis
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  • MrXMrX CO
    edited September 2018
    Avenatti made public his client who in a deposition described her first-hand knowledge about the parties that Kavanaugh and Judge frequented in high school and seems to contradict the picture that Kavanaugh painted during is Fox News interview. I don't see how they can go forward with a hearing tomorrow for just Ford and Kavanaugh and then vote on Friday. 



    Also - Kavanaugh's 1982 calendar was released - from what I've seen not sure if it comes close to exonerating him, since it mentions several parties and "beach week". WaPo is doing a good job of breaking it down:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2018/09/26/kavanaughs-calendar-annotated
    Travis
  • If Kavanaugh is confirmed this weekend, our democracy is broken, too much not being investigated.  Avenatti and his client just dumped the hinted at details.
    MrXTravis
  • LordByLordBy Utah
    edited September 2018
    The calendar hardly seems exculpatory, seems like he was having a good time as a spoiled rich kid that summer other than losing every basketball game.

    What prescription medication was he taking in high school? Probably just an inhaler for asthma or something and nobody’s business, unless they were tranquilizers or pain meds that could be used to “spike” punch at parties.

    Several folks, some previously vocal supporters, objecting to the innocent choir-boy image during high school and college portrayed by the Fox News interview. Horrific allegations by Avenatti’s client Julie Swetnick including specific placement of Mark Judge at the scene(s) by another accuser.

    Committee limiting to 5min of questions per senator meaning Kavanaugh will be cross examined for no more than 50min including the time it will take to answer with boilerplate repetitious non-answers, hiring a mouthpiece to do GOP questions because they know they’re creepy old white men, no FBI checking on anything, no need to get any statement under oath from Judge who is a direct witness to at least 2 of 3 allegations, committee has already scheduled vote for less that 24hrs after hearing ends, McConnell and others already publicly proclaiming the outcome, the President publicly proclaiming that if you’re drunk you deserve whatever happens and have no right to speak out, etc.

    I don’t know whether Kavanaugh did any of these things or not, but the process being constructed makes the confirmation look like a boys club covering something up and you have to be able to take a step back and see that at some point no matter what side of the issue you are on.

    We’re less than two weeks since the first accusation was known publically. The committee is scheduled to vote less that 2 days after the third accusation was known publically.

    At a minimum the FBI needs to vet the allegations to make sure the accusers, the accused, and the witnesses are on the record in a way that lying about it is a crime. The GOP can’t simulteanously say that they take these things seriously and ignore them.
    Travis
  • TravisTravis CA
    edited September 2018
    MrX said:
    Avenatti made public his client who in a deposition described her first-hand knowledge about the parties that Kavanaugh and Judge frequented in high school and seems to contradict the picture that Kavanaugh painted during is Fox News interview. I don't see how they can go forward with a hearing tomorrow for just Ford and Kavanaugh and then vote on Friday. 



    Also - Kavanaugh's 1982 calendar was released - from what I've seen not sure if it comes close to exonerating him, since it mentions several parties and "beach week". WaPo is doing a good job of breaking it down:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2018/09/26/kavanaughs-calendar-annotated
    This is a sworn statement subject to perjury. @tom_g is 100% right. It was egregious enough that they couldn't be bothered to bring in the FBI before, if they don't now I just don't even know what to do with that. It would show that our system is completely broken. At least, even as absolutely terrible as the core R senators are it sounds like Murkowski, Collins, and Flake are on the fence. This certainly won't help that. Honestly, how do you not investigate this? This is some seriously fucked up stuff.
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  • TravisTravis CA
    edited September 2018
    Totally frivolous sidebar question: Has anyone ever looked more definitively like an asshole than Tucker Carlson? I mean, when someone asks "who in this room is an asshole?" (great party game) don't you just look for the dude who looks the most like Tucker Carlson?

    voodoorat
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