305 - If You Have Ghosts

2

Comments

  • So I'm still thinking Lucy was somewhat "in" on Julie disappearing. The vibe I'm getting is: Julie isn't Tom's and Lucy works with/knows of her real father wanting to have her. The idea was for her to just disappear with her real dad but Will was there and an accident happened. Lucy was expecting to 'lose' Julie but not to also really lose Will. So she's she's kind of stuck. Maybe she wrote the letter, or knows who did and expected it as part of the original plan: that note plays just as well if Will comes home fine and only Julie is missing.

    Hays mentions a hoyt person coming to visit him and being in a dark place. Maybe a Hoyt is Julie's dad, Harris was getting close so hoyt had them both killed somehow.

    But honestly I have no idea.
    CapeGabechrilew
  • MichelleMichelle California
    What if "the children should laugh" is a line from the Hoyt Foods children's foundation's (can't remember the name) mission statement or something the founder/head of the corporation had said once to Lucy?
  • Michelle said:
    What if "the children should laugh" is a line from the Hoyt Foods children's foundation's (can't remember the name) mission statement or something the founder/head of the corporation had said once to Lucy?

    That was my thought too, it's definitely connected but I don't think it's as direct as Lucy wrote the note. She is gone all the time "drinking with friends" but who knows what she's actually doing. It could be that Tom is the only one who didn't know what has been going in.
    Pangs
  • ...What I'm curious about it what Hays did to Roland...

    I think Roland said, "...you don't remember...", when saying he never got married.   Hays ruined Roland's relationship somehow.   I'm guessing it involved high drama, passion, and a tense confrontation. 
    Murderbear
  • edited February 2019
    If the rest of the season is just footage of Nick P doing his taxes, it will still be a billion times as good as season 2. Normally the time-bending stuff would get on my nerves (I hated what Westworld did with it) but here it feels like a legitimate way of putting us into the shoes of elder Hays, trying to piece things together from brief memories. And I'm glad the dialogue continues to have a Milchy feel. Knowing he still has the ability to lie on his back and spew genius at a writers' room makes me less worried about the upcoming Deadwood movie.

    Although there was a tiny bit of unintentional humor when Ali's "let's bang" face was so ridiculously intense that it felt like parody.
    Michelletom_gbennytubetelephoneofmadness
  • I hope one of the bald move community lawyers contributes feedback on the posthumous conviction.  Is this common/uncommon?  Easier than normal/harder?  General thoughts.
  • edited February 2019
    Oh, and the best part of the ep was how they went back to the one kid they roughed up and gave us a picture of how that traumatic event affected him. Most other shows - maybe all other shows - would just use that instance of police brutality to make it seem like they're dealing in shades of gray while still expecting the audience to think it's justified. I mean, they let the kid go, so no harm done, right?

    I love that they use the other timeline to follow up on the logical consequences of their actions in the 80's.
    mylifeaskirkpodcartfanKate23
  • Oh, and the best part of the ep was how they went back to the one kid they roughed up and gave us a picture of how that traumatic event affected him. Most other shows - maybe all other shows - would just use that instance of police brutality to make it seem like they're dealing in shades of gray while still expecting the audience to think it's justified. I mean, they let the kid go, so no harm done, right?
    That boy had nobody to blame for his life except himself and that Black Sunday band.
    alexander.klassenmylifeaskirkCapeGabe
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    edited February 2019
    They mentioned there wasn't a preview for next week but I guess there was one that aired during the regular broadcast. I watched the episode Sunday afternoon and did think it was weird they didn't have one. Just started the episode of Crashing on my DVR and it had the tail end of True Detective credits and the preview. Just FYI if anyone is looking for it.
  • MichelleMichelle California
    edited February 2019
    I have another new theory (I'm like @JIm, I'm full of them.)

    In the 1990 timeline, Hays and Roland question that young drifter guy who says he knows Julie, but knows her as 'Mary July'.  He said she is kind of a little 'off', thinks she's some sort of secret princess from the pink rooms, has lost a brother and is looking for him (paraphrasing Aron's words from today's pod).  (Princess because she believes she belongs with the rich people aka Hoyts?)  SO - Hoyt's foundation was created when Hoyt lost his granddaughter a couple of years prior to Julie's disappearance.  What if Lucy sold Julie to Hoyt (or Hoyt put the pressure on Lucy to give Julie to him) via Hoyt's cronie (since Hoyt is out of the country) to replace the granddaughter he lost?  We know she wasn't into being a mother, she didn't have a lot of money, etc. plus she has that meltdown when Amelia goes to visit her in episode 4.  (For what it's worth, I still think this is where she heard "the children should laugh".)  In episode 3, when Hays and Roland go to visit the Hoyt plant and are talking to the executive about the foundation, Roland is checking out everything that's hung on the walls.  Amidst all of these framed documents is a large photo of who I assume is Hoyt's daughter with his granddaughter on her lap (at the 21:16/21:17 mark).  He and Hays are told that Hoyt's (conveniently) been out of the country (in Africa on safari) since October while all of this is going down.  Julie's kidnapping and Will's death happened on Nov. 7th, so he left about a month prior.   Hoyt's daughter could be the woman in the brown sedan, and the man with her could be one of the men from the chicken processing plant (Sam Whitehead did say that lots of men have accidents there - definite scar likelihood).  Also, I think the bigwigs at the foundation are mixed in with the AG & the rest of those guys in money & dirty politics, and I think the policeman Harris probably planted the shirt & backpack, but later threatened to go public & was killed to protect the truth.

    TL:DR - Hoyt & the foundation execs, the AG, et. al. took Julie and Hoyt's daughter is raising her as a replacement daughter.


    mylifeaskirkMurderbear
  • chrilewchrilew Austin, TX
    So I'm still thinking Lucy was somewhat "in" on Julie disappearing. The vibe I'm getting is: Julie isn't Tom's and Lucy works with/knows of her real father wanting to have her. The idea was for her to just disappear with her real dad but Will was there and an accident happened. Lucy was expecting to 'lose' Julie but not to also really lose Will. So she's she's kind of stuck. Maybe she wrote the letter, or knows who did and expected it as part of the original plan: that note plays just as well if Will comes home fine and only Julie is missing.

    Hays mentions a hoyt person coming to visit him and being in a dark place. Maybe a Hoyt is Julie's dad, Harris was getting close so hoyt had them both killed somehow.

    But honestly I have no idea.
    I am leaning this way too. Clearly, Julie has gotten it in her head that Tom is not her father. That got me thinking about Lucy, which led me to the scene with Amelia in the kitchen. (Which was KILLER. Man those Gummer girls got their mother's talent in spades).
    I'm not sure yet who is Julie's dad, (I'm thinking someone connected with Hoyt) but I'm beginning to think it isn't Tom. Or at least Lucy doesn't believe it was Tom. And I drew the same conclusion- that maybe somehow she was involved, either directly or indirectly as a pawn or victim of extortion/blackmail. I just believe there is something MORE to the guilt she felt, specifically the guilt over having the soul of a whore. She isn't just feeling guilt over bad parenting but for sleeping around on Tom. I don't remember how long she and Tom were dating before finding out she was pregnant, but that might be an interesting detail as well. Was she using Tom from the very beginning? I'm not even sure if that matters. Curious, though. 
    On another, slightly related note, I not sure if the brother's death was an accident, but I think Julie posed him. She would be more familiar with the photo than just about anyone, and taking such care of the body shows remorse for their death. I can imagine this being the thing a somewhat church-going child would think to do for her brother.

    Last thoughts: I remember way back in Ep. 1 or 2 that the Documentary director mentioned a sex trafficking ring with Very Important People or something which immediately reminded me of Seasons 1 and 2. It was in passing, but it was there, and obviously came up again in Ep. 5 in the hotel room. 

    Speaking of the hotel room, anyone notice if there was lipstick on one or two glasses? Might help with the Henry/Heather debate.

    mylifeaskirk
  • This is kind of where my head is but you fleshed it out a bit more than I had. Weaves into my thought that Lucy's guilt comes from being part of it, but not ever thinking death was going to happen. And Will was an accident.
    chrilew
  • Listening to this week's podcast and thinking about the idea that there is a larger conspiracy. I think there is, but we may never get there. I think he/they're creating it in a way that they're essentially anthologies, but there's also the connections if you look. Season 2 maybe not. But I wouldn't be surprised if we kind of don't get much of the larger picture at the end of this season, but season 4 will be in the same universe and have tentacles back into 1 and 3.

    It makes me think of the final episode of season 1, where Marty is consoling Rust and he kind of says it isn't their job to get everyone; it's their job to get the monsters that are right in front of them and they did. And maybe that's what Wayne and Roland will do, leaving larger monsters alive. It makes for a satisfying show if you weren't looking, and it makes for a realistic look into things like corruption if you were: it's hard to get the big ones so sometimes you have to pick off people who may be "smaller" but are still doing real harm. So maybe they get the DA for some shit, but would they get Hoyt?
  • MichelleMichelle California
    The only way I can see season 2 tying in to season 1 and maybe 3, is the human trafficking.  What if Julie was kidnapped as part of that whole scene?  I don't think this is the case.  My theory is a few posts above this one.  But if you're looking for a tie-in, that would probably be it, IMO.
    mylifeaskirk
  • Michelle said:
    The only way I can see season 2 tying in to season 1 and maybe 3, is the human trafficking.  What if Julie was kidnapped as part of that whole scene?  I don't think this is the case.  My theory is a few posts above this one.  But if you're looking for a tie-in, that would probably be it, IMO.
    Good point about the trafficking in S2. I think I was trying to respond to you when I said this is where my head was but someone got in another post prior so it looks like I was responding to them. I'm buying stock in your theory :) I especially like the angle that the couple in the sedan is Hoyt related.
    Michelle
  • Who knew Stephen Dorf best known for playing a hipster vampire in Blade could crush a scene like that. Got to imagine this is the episode submitted for the Emmys that probably wins them both supporting and lead in miniseries. 
    Michelle
  • DeeDee Adelaide
    I am mildly shocked at everyone’s surprise at Stephen Dorff’s talent. You guys need to go and watch The Power Of One, Backbeat and I Shot Andy Warhol.

    He’s one of those actors who should have broken out years ago. I think maybe drugs got in the way for a while? 
    mylifeaskirkcdrive
  • Dee said:
    I am mildly shocked at everyone’s surprise at Stephen Dorff’s talent. You guys need to go and watch The Power Of One, Backbeat and I Shot Andy Warhol.

    He’s one of those actors who should have broken out years ago. I think maybe drugs got in the way for a while? 
    I was surprised because i hadn’t seen him in much I remembered as an adult. But I’m with you on Power of One. I always think of “A waterfall starts as one drop of water and look what becomes of that”
    Dee
  • Dee said:
    I am mildly shocked at everyone’s surprise at Stephen Dorff’s talent. You guys need to go and watch The Power Of One, Backbeat and I Shot Andy Warhol.

    He’s one of those actors who should have broken out years ago. I think maybe drugs got in the way for a while? 

    I recalled liking him in Phil Joanou's 1999 movie Entropy about Joanou's life falling apart when he was directing videos for U2. I'm not sure if he was good or watched it with a broken heart or it was an anti-romantic movie in a time of a lot of rom-coms or that U2 was in it but I remember being moved by it at the time.

    I think it's a good idea to see how it stands up to my memory and luckily it's free on Amazon Prime but strangely under the name Adventures in Tinsel Town
    Dee
  • DeeDee Adelaide
    @mylifeaskirk He really did show a lot of promise when he was younger but somewhere along the line his career derailed. He is amazingly good in Backbeat as Stu Sutcliffe. 
    mylifeaskirk
  • CoryCory New Scotland
    Dee said:
    I am mildly shocked at everyone’s surprise at Stephen Dorff’s talent. You guys need to go and watch The Power Of One, Backbeat and I Shot Andy Warhol.

    He’s one of those actors who should have broken out years ago. I think maybe drugs got in the way for a while? 
    I only know him from Blade, but I'm not surprised by his talent.  I mean, he was cast in this as one of the leads for a reason.
  • Not sure how to @Jim and @A.Ron but listening to the pod you mentioned that Woodard wasn't in the Ep 4 ghost scene, but IMO he was. A lot of people on Reddit said it wasn't him because it didn't match his face, but after this episode I believe it was. It was a brief appearance early in the scene. 


    podcartfanKate23MichelleMurderbeartelephoneofmadness
  • Kate23 said:

    Crime mystery aside, I hope we learn more about just why the crime show folks are doing this now, with Wayne. Did something happen to bring it back in the news? I don't think it started with the Henry, as they approached Roland as well. That's a slow drip.
    Some of my crack-pot theories:

    I was thinking the whole season the reporter is somebody's daughter. Just hadn't managed to line her up with someone the right age. Too young to be Julie who'd be about 45yo, although I still have that in the back of my mind. After this week I think she's Harris James's daughter and she suspects Wayne/Roland of killing him.  Born in 80's would make her the right age. That she keeps questioning about the integrity of the investigation, fishing for a motive. The fact that she's clearly noted they spoke to him in 90, presumably shortly before he died.  Perhaps she thinks they killed Dan too.  Second wine glass could be Becca or Henry and she could be using them to access him.  Could also be her mother who she is worried Wayne will recognise.  

    Either way, it seems Harris was the guy covering up everything and planting/stealing evidence.  Leaving houses off the maps, etc. The boys ended up killing him somehow when they discovered he was crooked. 

    The overall mystery, i suspect it's Hoyt buying the kids off Lucy, or something along those lines. If Lucy wrote the note, that makes sense. Also some the things Lucy says to Amelia the previous week about what she did and giving up the only things that loved her. Then she broke down when she saw the plate with "i love you Mom".  Would make more sense than if they were just in reference to her not being there for them.  The poorly handwritten letter and misspellings would also fit.

    At least that was the plan, but the fact Hoyt was "just as confused about everything" suggests maybe the plan didn't work out.  Maybe Dan was involved in it somehow and he ended up with Julie. When Dan went to prison (86/87) Julie would have been a teenager. Used to being in hiding  and now alone, she then took to the streets and was a bit messed up and dysfunctional. When Dan subsequently got out maybe he was taken care of by Harris.

    Can also see whoever took Julie brain-washing her into thinking Tom stole her as a baby, and they are her real parents and have taken her back but Tom will come looking for her so she must hide.
    Kate23mylifeaskirk
  • Haven't heard the James thing yet! Maybe the director doesn't suspect Wayne or Roland for his death (what would be the point of accusing someone with dimentia), but needs his vulnerability to help accuse who she really suspects, in a public way. And she'd make her career in the process. 
    mylifeaskirk
  • chrilewchrilew Austin, TX
    Good point about the trafficking in S2. I think I was trying to respond to you when I said this is where my head was but someone got in another post prior so it looks like I was responding to them.
     :(  I was so excited.
    mylifeaskirk
  • chrilew said:
    Good point about the trafficking in S2. I think I was trying to respond to you when I said this is where my head was but someone got in another post prior so it looks like I was responding to them.
     :(  I was so excited.
    I like you and yours, too!
  • Any radio station that plays Levon Helm is alright by me.
  • They mentioned there wasn't a preview for next week but I guess there was one that aired during the regular broadcast. I watched the episode Sunday afternoon and did think it was weird they didn't have one. Just started the episode of Crashing on my DVR and it had the tail end of True Detective credits and the preview. Just FYI if anyone is looking for it.
    Can't get a preview, but I got an hbo now email with a gif of some very enticing shots, especially one with 90s long-hair Amelia, but I can't slow it down or freeze frame, so I am pretty damn excited for Sunday. 
    Murderbear
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