803 - “The Long Night”

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  • My gripe and hopefully ya’ll can help me understand, but I’m confused with Bran. For being the next three eyed raven and having greensight, he didn’t give a lot of helpful information. Him and Jon knew the size of the AOTD and their might, so I was looking for more a tactical and clever battle.

    It’s my understanding that Bran can scroll through information related to the night king, so how can the night king know he’s impervious to dragon fire and Bran not know. Maybe it’s bc Bran is new to all of it. Also, why can an zombie dragon bring down a ancient magical ice wall but be ineffective against the night king? Really wanted Bran to be more of an asset. I’m not sure what his purpose is other than becoming the three eyed raven for the future.

    I appreciate D&D showing how formidable the AOTD was, they certainly lived up to their billing.
    alexander.klassen
  • AnominalAnominal San Francisco Bay Area
    edited April 2019
    I don't remember exactly how Show Bran's abilities work. I don't think it's really ever been clearly defined. But his what they do with his character going forward is a big mystery for me as well. I was expecting Bran to *do* something in regards to the Night King. But he really mostly just let things play out. Maybe lured him to his spot by warging into the crows. Is that enough if that really was his major role in the story? Is what's left for him just to provide proof of Jon's parentage after all that build up he's had? 

    What if he sits the iron throne? Everyone *did* see that the Night King came to kill Bran, giving legitimacy to his claims. (No, I don't really believe this.)
  • AnominalAnominal San Francisco Bay Area
    From Reddit: 

    Dragon fight with the brightness turned up, speed turned down.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/bj0mmg/spoilers_s08e03_fight_of_the_dragons_brightness/
    lengmoKate23rustywright4OliviaDElisaSanguinePenguin
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    Anominal said:
    From Reddit: 

    Dragon fight with the brightness turned up, speed turned down.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/bj0mmg/spoilers_s08e03_fight_of_the_dragons_brightness/
    I prefer the original as it seems scarier and more 'realistic', but that is incredible. I love when you can actually see the different colors of the dragons pop on the screen.
    Elisa
  • My theory is that Bran figured they were fucked and the whole time he was just working on his exit strategy:

    Image result for pigeon man hey arnold
    chuck1991
  • I'm sure I'm not the only one - but it feels like everything after this episode is going to be a bit of a letdown. As Jim mentioned in the podcast, THIS was the battle that actually mattered to 99.9% of Westeros, not one with Circe. EVERYONE had an interest in defeating the Night King, which is going to make every battle after that seem kinda petty. Besides Dany and Jon - who in their right mind is going to want to march south now for another fight? What a disappointing death it would be to survive the craziest zombie battle in 1000 years, only to get smoked by some Golden Company rando to settle a (at this point) seemingly-frivolous dispute over a sword chair - the stakes are just so much lower? This show has shrunk a story that everyone in Westeros cares about to a story that no one in Westeros cares about.  Don't get me wrong, I want to see how Circe's story ends up too, I just feel like they put the wrong story-line ending first... 
    JTKIIIrustywright4
  • Doctor_NickDoctor_Nick Terminus
    edited April 2019
    A possible explanation for Bran is that he knows the possibilities and possibly the outcome of events, but telling people information will result in changing the outcome. For example, Theon needed to die so Arya could make her play, Bran telling Theon not to bother would have changed the outcome. 
    mylifeaskirkElisaSanguinePenguin
  • MuyiwaMuyiwa Ocean, NJ
    maxdemian said:
    I'm sure I'm not the only one - but it feels like everything after this episode is going to be a bit of a letdown. As Jim mentioned in the podcast, THIS was the battle that actually mattered to 99.9% of Westeros, not one with Circe. EVERYONE had an interest in defeating the Night King, which is going to make every battle after that seem kinda petty. Besides Dany and Jon - who in their right mind is going to want to march south now for another fight? What a disappointing death it would be to survive the craziest zombie battle in 1000 years, only to get smoked by some Golden Company rando to settle a (at this point) seemingly-frivolous dispute over a sword chair - the stakes are just so much lower? This show has shrunk a story that everyone in Westeros cares about to a story that no one in Westeros cares about.  Don't get me wrong, I want to see how Circe's story ends up too, I just feel like they put the wrong story-line ending first... 
    Wouldn't that be based on GRRM's plans? So wouldn't that criticism be placed at his feet?
    Kate23maxdemianSanguinePenguin
  • I'm sure it's been mentioned, but that score at the end of the battle was grade A Ramin Djawadi.
    "Light of the Seven" is still his best and most unique work on the show, but this is up there as memorable.
    Until you listen to the scene set to the Avengers theme: 
    hisdudeness915awookiee
  • HunkuleseHunkulese Québec, Canada
    edited April 2019
    What I'm hoping for now is that we get a Harry Potter ending. Everyone survives and they all marry each other and name their kids after dead people.

    Series ends with little Eddard Targaryen gleefully building a snowman with Tywin Stark and Catelyn Baratheon.
    MurderbearCeciliaMMFGSanguinePenguin
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    maxdemian said:
    I'm sure I'm not the only one - but it feels like everything after this episode is going to be a bit of a letdown. As Jim mentioned in the podcast, THIS was the battle that actually mattered to 99.9% of Westeros, not one with Circe. EVERYONE had an interest in defeating the Night King, which is going to make every battle after that seem kinda petty. Besides Dany and Jon - who in their right mind is going to want to march south now for another fight? What a disappointing death it would be to survive the craziest zombie battle in 1000 years, only to get smoked by some Golden Company rando to settle a (at this point) seemingly-frivolous dispute over a sword chair - the stakes are just so much lower? This show has shrunk a story that everyone in Westeros cares about to a story that no one in Westeros cares about.  Don't get me wrong, I want to see how Circe's story ends up too, I just feel like they put the wrong story-line ending first... 
    I am glad it is playing out this way. Yes, the Night King was actually the most important threat, but now comes the fun part: destroying Cersei Lannister. It's like the show itself. Yes, I enjoy the huge spectacle battles but I am here for the politics and plotting and scheming and backstabbing and general fuckery this show has always been so good at doing. I obviously have no idea what all is coming but I am pleased to see that we have three super sized episodes left to finish it all out.
    maxdemianElisa
  • Seems to me this is exactly what GRRM wanted, isn't it?

    From all directions I've heard that his one complaint about LotR was, what comes after, what about the taxes, etc etc etc etc. 

    Isnt that what we're getting here? Vanquishing the one huge supernatural, seemingly world-ending threat.....and moving on to What Comes After. 


    Fwiw, I think uniting ice and fire, TPTWP, all that, will still play out in the next 3 episodes. Nobody saw ep3 playing out exactly as it did; I'm pretty sure a lot of our expectations for the rest of the series were based an what we expected from this battle. So I'm prepared for anything this point. Also, I have no doubt GRRM had Arya v. NK all along. 
    maxdemianBenElisaSanguinePenguin
  • MuyiwaMuyiwa Ocean, NJ
    maxdemian said:
    I'm sure I'm not the only one - but it feels like everything after this episode is going to be a bit of a letdown. As Jim mentioned in the podcast, THIS was the battle that actually mattered to 99.9% of Westeros, not one with Circe. EVERYONE had an interest in defeating the Night King, which is going to make every battle after that seem kinda petty. Besides Dany and Jon - who in their right mind is going to want to march south now for another fight? What a disappointing death it would be to survive the craziest zombie battle in 1000 years, only to get smoked by some Golden Company rando to settle a (at this point) seemingly-frivolous dispute over a sword chair - the stakes are just so much lower? This show has shrunk a story that everyone in Westeros cares about to a story that no one in Westeros cares about.  Don't get me wrong, I want to see how Circe's story ends up too, I just feel like they put the wrong story-line ending first... 
    I am glad it is playing out this way. Yes, the Night King was actually the most important threat, but now comes the fun part: destroying Cersei Lannister. It's like the show itself. Yes, I enjoy the huge spectacle battles but I am here for the politics and plotting and scheming and backstabbing and general fuckery this show has always been so good at doing. I obviously have no idea what all is coming but I am pleased to see that we have three super sized episodes left to finish it all out.
    I'm coming to terms myself on that note.

    For me, the most interesting part of the story was watching the lords and kings fight over who would rule at the end, despite the fact that an existential threat was bearing down on them. I always felt that the battle for the realm was always the one vs the dead, and that would be the final battle.

    Now, I feel that the show has successfully brought me around in the way they handled it. 
    MurderbearSanguinePenguin
  • mtron32mtron32 San Diego
    JaimieT said:
    For reals now.

    Man, the show was broken for me a long time ago. It's been morphed into serving up big moments for several seasons now, as if that's why we like the show. A complete misunderstanding of what makes something like the Red Wedding satisfying. Or dragons satisfying. The show has been disregarding the groundwork of big moments in favor of just having big moments constantly. It's obvious that the show just broke for a few more people Sunday night. That's fine, welcome to the club. I think some people are subconsciously sexist with the Arya complaint, but I don't think everyone is; I can understand why you might not like it from a holistic standpoint. So have a seat in the We Watch GoT Although It's Bullshit club.
    I think my breaking point was when they went north to bring a walker back so Cersei would be convinced, as if she would ever honor a deal.  All they needed to do was blitz Kings landing after the caravan assault but for some reason they found it necessary to go North.  The wall was holding the dead at bay pretty well by itself UNTIL they went North and gave NK a dragon so what was the point in going to begin with?  

    After that, I had a good two years to say fuckit, bring on the end, so for me last Sunday it was fine.  Just seems like GRRM fucked up by allowing the show to begin when he had no idea if he'd ever conclude the novels in time.  Once the leapfrogged the books it was a different show.
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    I hated that stupid plot last year but they did at least keep Cersei from marching north and attacking them either right before or right after the NK fight. That's.....something? Ha
  • Teresa from ConcordTeresa from Concord Concord, California
    JaimieT said:
    I think they certainly set up Arya's skill sets for this, but does her internal planning really matter? This was a Hail Mary! Someone at the top of their game, executing against all odds at the last minute for the upset. You only hate to see it when you're on the losing end. 

    (Yeah this level of criticism is where it starts to feel sexist.)
    And how exactly is this sexist? 
    ken hale
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    edited April 2019
    I hated that stupid plot last year but they did at least keep Cersei from marching north and attacking them either right before or right after the NK fight. That's.....something? Ha
    I'm not sure that's what stopped her. She would have been incredibly stupid to fight them in the north, regardless of circumstance. Cersei isn't the smartest, but she at least knew that much.

    And mtron is right, if they would have just attacked Cersei instead of going north of the wall to bring her a wight, then she would have been easily defeated in S7 AND they would have still had all 3 dragons, which means no getting through the wall for the Night King and his army. Even if the Night King found a way to get through the wall, he has no wight dragon to bring to Winterfell.
    rustywright4Elisa
  • lengmolengmo RTP, NC
    And mtron is right, if they would have just attacked Cersei instead of going north of the wall to bring her a wight, then she would have been easily defeated in S7 AND they would have still had all 3 dragons [...]
    If they attacked Cersei, there's no guarantee any of the dragons or any of the dragon riders would have survived.
    MurderbearElisaSanguinePenguin
  • I didn't enjoy this episode, though I can see why others did.
    For me, the main disappointment is because I got into this show because it was the Wire in a fantasy setting, and now it's clear that it has become Marvel in a fantasy setting. Which is to say, it's fine, it's just not what i signed up for.
    Doctor_NickOldGriswoldken haleSchluppMFGalexander.klassen
  • I believe the reason that the NK wants to kill the 3ER is because he is the only one with memory of how the NK was created - and subsequently how he can be killed. Although, they pretty much figured out Valyrian steel and dragonglass by accident. Perhaps it's the location (e.g. heart) that was the key? 
    Elisa
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    lengmo said:
    And mtron is right, if they would have just attacked Cersei instead of going north of the wall to bring her a wight, then she would have been easily defeated in S7 AND they would have still had all 3 dragons [...]
    If they attacked Cersei, there's no guarantee any of the dragons or any of the dragon riders would have survived.
    Why? There is no evidence that they had fortified KL with ballistas at all at that point. The Targaryen army alone dwarfed what little army Cersei had left. 

    It would have been such an easy win for team Targaryen. Even now with ballistas likely built and playing a hand in the upcoming conflict, those things are purely lucky shots to hit a dragon flying around at full speed before it destroys the ballista. In the 300+ years of dragons battling and attacking kingdoms who DID have ballista weapons, only 1 has ever been killed by one and only 1 has been  slightly injured by one.
    rustywright4
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    I hated that stupid plot last year but they did at least keep Cersei from marching north and attacking them either right before or right after the NK fight. That's.....something? Ha
    I'm not sure that's what stopped her. She would have been incredibly stupid to fight them in the north, regardless of circumstance. Cersei isn't the smartest, but she at least knew that much.

    And mtron is right, if they would have just attacked Cersei instead of going north of the wall to bring her a wight, then she would have been easily defeated in S7 AND they would have still had all 3 dragons, which means no getting through the wall for the Night King and his army. Even if the Night King found a way to get through the wall, he has no wight dragon to bring to Winterfell.
    I thought their plan was to just get a truce from her. If that was the case then they could have just not attacked her and worried about the Night King. I don't know, maybe they were asking for both a truce and for her help. I thought they were surprised that she agreed to the first one and then doubly surprised when she pledged her troops.

    But whatever. The wight-napping mission was one of the dumbest things ever so best to just forget it. Ha
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    Demerol said:
    I believe the reason that the NK wants to kill the 3ER is because he is the only one with memory of how the NK was created - and subsequently how he can be killed. Although, they pretty much figured out Valyrian steel and dragonglass by accident. Perhaps it's the location (e.g. heart) that was the key? 
    D&D confirmed in the post episode interview that Arya had to stab the NK in the same exact spot where the Children of the Forest shoved the dragonglass, which like you mentioned was the heart.

    Although I have no idea if Bran had given those small details to Arya. Seems likely he wouldn't have. Arya was trained by the Hound to know where the heart is, so that's why I assumed she went for the heart.
    MurderbearSanguinePenguinalexander.klassen
  • Dansbury said:
    Sorry if this has been discussed but I gotta ask. Everyone keeps saying that the giant that killed Lyanna was Wun Wun. How on earth did Wun Wun die at Winterfell during season 6 at the BOB, then somehow end up beyond the wall as a whight at the beginning of season 7 during Bran's vision? I know he looks like Wun Wun and has one eye but the logistics of it don't make sense. Am I missing something? 
    Yeah, @All the Chickens is right. It's not Wun-Wun. I am sure they burned him after the Battle of the Bastards. There is no way in hell they didn't. Also, he has a different face. And the wrong eye is missing. I think we've actually seen this giant before. I am pretty sure he was in the scene at the beginng of last season when we see the storm coming and the army marching and the camera zooms all the way into his eye. And I remember people thinking THAT was Wun-Wun then too.
    In the making of episode I believe his name was "Kunga" or something like that. They did reference him by name. It definitely wasn't Wun-Wun.
  • Demerol said:
    I believe the reason that the NK wants to kill the 3ER is because he is the only one with memory of how the NK was created - and subsequently how he can be killed. Although, they pretty much figured out Valyrian steel and dragonglass by accident. Perhaps it's the location (e.g. heart) that was the key? 
    D&D confirmed in the post episode interview that Arya had to stab the NK in the same exact spot where the Children of the Forest shoved the dragonglass, which like you mentioned was the heart.

    Although I have no idea if Bran had given those small details to Arya. Seems likely he wouldn't have. Arya was trained by the Hound to know where the heart is, so that's why I assumed she went for the heart.
    That little tidbit in the post episode commentary was the one quibble I had with this Arya scene, which otherwise I thought was perfect. We didn't need to know that she had to get him in the heart, and it just opened up all this quibbling about whether or not she had a plan to have him hold her just this way so his armor would open up and get to his heart yada yada, how on earth with Arya have known what his armor was like, and if that was a known thing, then why would he have armor that had slits in it RIGHT BY HIS DAMN HEART!

    Otherwise I have no quibbles with it and I thought it was awesome how she appeared out of nowhere right as we expected the NK to draw his sword. 

    About the Bran stuff- I don't think Bran immediately just knows everything; I think it has been explained before that he can access information but it's kind of jumbled because of the way his training or "download" session was interrupted. And it's been debated whether or not he can see the future, but it seems the general consensus is that he cannot see the future, only the past and present (and he sees the present through warging into crows, who I think of as kind of his own personal google bots). 

    But also- It was NOT in the battle plan to have Arya go after the NK, correct? What was the original plan? I can barely remember but I know Bran was supposed to be the bait and then someone (I guess I think it was Jon) was supposed to show up and showdown with the NK when he showed up. But maybe Bran had an intuition- Our intuition or "gut feelings" about topics get better when we know more, and I assume Bran knows all about Arya's training and experiences over the years in a way no one else does since she isn't prone to fireside chats or bragging over her exploits. So maybe he had an intuition that Arya was a better person for the job so he kept his ideas to himself and waited to see how things would play out. And he was warging right up until the end so maybe he even knew she was coming.
    SanguinePenguin
  • lengmolengmo RTP, NC
    Why? There is no evidence that they had fortified KL with ballistas at all at that point. The Targaryen army alone dwarfed what little army Cersei had left.
    It's war, nothing is guaranteed except things don't go according to plan.  If archers disabled or killed the riders, the dragons become much less effective/more vulnerable.  There's always 'the shot through the eye' possibility.
    Elisa
  • AnominalAnominal San Francisco Bay Area
    edited April 2019
    Wait... What was the plan? The plan was for Bran to be bait because the Night King wants to kill him, hold the dragons in reserve, and roast the Night King with dragon fire when he appears. 

    And let's place Bran in the Godswood surrounded by Theon and his men.

    To lure the Night King there. To roast him with dragon fire. With all of them in the Godswood. Including Bran and Theon. 

    I'm missing something. 

    ken halealexander.klassen
  • I hesitate to wade into the "is X criticism sexist" discussion, but I guess I am a kind of rabid feminist, so I would like to give some rulings, haha
    For context, I am a 46-year-old woman

    Criticism of Arya killing NK and how it happened: I haven't seen any evidence that this particular criticism on this board is sexist. I don't read any other forums about GoT so maybe there is something in the larger conversation that is sexist.

    Criticism of Arya having sex with Gendry last week: I found a lot of that sexist. (Please see the thread about that episode if you are interested in a full exploration of my response, LOL)

    It's not a valid argument to say "If it was a male character, you guys would be complaining less." 
    1) That's a textbook logical fallacy. You can use logic to make a feminist argument, so let's not resort to logical fallacies.
    2) People criticize and pick apart every scene of GoT left and right, up down and sideways, whether the characters involved are men, women, wolves, dragons, or undead ice zombies, so that critique just doesn't hold water for me.

    It's not a valid argument to say "I am a woman, so I just know"
    It's true, as women there are things we sense or feel about sexism that men do not see, but when we argue points, we need to be able to back them up with facts or examples. This is whether we feel something is sexist, we believe red wine and chocolate is good for our health, and god bless the scientists of all genders working on this important issue. Saying "I am a woman, so I just know" actually weakens your argument.
    AnominalCapeGabebbordrkcrawfken haleSanguinePenguinCory
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    CeciliaM said:
    Demerol said:
    I believe the reason that the NK wants to kill the 3ER is because he is the only one with memory of how the NK was created - and subsequently how he can be killed. Although, they pretty much figured out Valyrian steel and dragonglass by accident. Perhaps it's the location (e.g. heart) that was the key? 
    D&D confirmed in the post episode interview that Arya had to stab the NK in the same exact spot where the Children of the Forest shoved the dragonglass, which like you mentioned was the heart.

    Although I have no idea if Bran had given those small details to Arya. Seems likely he wouldn't have. Arya was trained by the Hound to know where the heart is, so that's why I assumed she went for the heart.

    But also- It was NOT in the battle plan to have Arya go after the NK, correct? What was the original plan? I can barely remember but I know Bran was supposed to be the bait and then someone (I guess I think it was Jon) was supposed to show up and showdown with the NK when he showed up. But maybe Bran had an intuition- Our intuition or "gut feelings" about topics get better when we know more, and I assume Bran knows all about Arya's training and experiences over the years in a way no one else does since she isn't prone to fireside chats or bragging over her exploits. So maybe he had an intuition that Arya was a better person for the job so he kept his ideas to himself and waited to see how things would play out. And he was warging right up until the end so maybe he even knew she was coming.
    Yeah, I believe Jon and Dany were supposed to locate the NK and try to kill him with their dragon fire, and if that failed, then Jon was supposed to kill him with his sword.

    The part where that broke down is that Jon could not make it to the Godswood because the wights and wight Viserion was specifically stopping Jon from making it through the Winterfell courtyard to get the Godswood, Arya (unbeknownst to us) became the only hope to kill the NK at that point.

    Arya was only able to make it to the Godswood because she was already in the castle and had a head start well before Viserion and other wights were ever trying to block anyone from going there. Hell, she had enough time that she could have been waiting somewhere in the Godswood for the NK to get there.

    I think it's confirmed that Bran gets visions of the future. In his "burn them all" highlight reel after "Hold the Door", they put in the exact clip ripped directly from the episode where Cersei blows up the Sept. It's not something that could be mistaken for a past event or anything. It was the same clip from the future episode. And he has had visions of the future before he ever became the 3ER, so I don't think that should even be in question. The kicker is that you can't always precisely interpret visions to know step-by-step what will happen. 
    I do think that he knew it was important for Arya to have that valyrian dagger and I definitely think he knew that something was about to happen when he stared up into the NK's eyes moments before Arya lept into the picture.

    I don't think that it's necessarily anything to do with Arya not bragging, since Jon is the same way.

    MurderbearCeciliaMElisaken haleSanguinePenguin
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    I really hope that they give us everyone's reaction when they are told that Arya is the one who killed the NK and saved them all. Especially Jon and the Hound, since they would be like the proudest father and older brother figures in the land. Jon would probably be a bit shocked since it doesn't seem like they've made it a point to show Jon how incredibly skilled she has become.

    Then again, I'm not holding my breath. It seems like the show hates showing character reactions to crazy news. Like they are the types who hate Youtube reaction channels, and they are taking it out on our show characters by having them receive all of the craziest and weirdest news off screen.
    Murderbear
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