[SPOILERS] Inside the Episode 804 - The Last of the Starks (Behind the scenes)

Gan · May 6

Warning: SPOILERS, obviously. Please keep comments relevant, ie, no spoilers outside of this specific episode of the "Inside the Episode" series, no production leaks, etc.

Watching this, it looks like A.Ron and Jim were incorrect in their analysis of Jamie in the instant talk. Apparently he has gone back to Cersei, to not kill her but to be with her.

There's also confirmation that Missandei's "Dracarys" was an intentional message to Dany to burn all of King's Landing down.

With the first point I feel that D&D have essentially betrayed Jamie's character. It would be one thing if he were leaving Winterfell with the intent to kill Cersei and finding himself unable to, but here we have him leaving with the intent to be by her side. It just seems to me like a huge betrayal of 7 and a half seasons worth of character development and doesn't make any sense to me at all. But I digress.

The second point makes sense, people have treated Missandei like complete shit since she got to the North, and further King's Landing, and then she is taken prisoner. It is understandable that she'd want to see what she perceives as a carnival of hatred to burn, and to be avenged.

What do you think of this Inside the Episode?

gguenot · May 6

I took it as them explaining Jamie’s motives to an unknowing audience instead of going “nahhh he’s gonna kill her”

All the Chickens · May 6

Yeah, Jaime might not be going to KL specifically to murder Cersei, but I think he is definitely going to try stop her, whatever that ends up meaning.

Jaime already knew that the army was going to fight her when he stayed behing with Brienne. The thing that changed was hearing what she did to the dragon and Missandei. He sees how far she is willing to take this,and seeing that surrendering is no linger an option for her.

Jaime knows that he cant be with her now. Heck, Jaime knows that even going down there means she might execute him on the spot.

hisdudeness915 · May 6

I really don’t see how this is a betrayal of his character. Every time he has had a chance to cut that cord he has gone right back to her side. Every.single.time. They are the definition of an abusive relationship. This is show Jamie, not book Jamie.

That being said, I hope that this time is different

Gan · May 6

gguenot said:

I took it as them explaining Jamie’s motives to an unknowing audience instead of going “nahhh he’s gonna kill her”

In their own words:

"As much as Jamie cares for Brienne, and admires her and loves her, he's got almost an addiction to Cersei that he just can't break. So, even though he's given a chance at happiness, and some kind of different life for himself, he can't take it. He makes the choice to go back to Cersei."

That directly implies he is not going back to kill Cersei but to be with her as lovers once more. You may say that D&D can't explicitly say that he is going back to kill his sister, but that would be pretty inconsistent as they explicitly state other plot points such as with Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Missandei, and Cersei.

Here's an example with this quote Re: Dany's and Missandei's motivation:

"There's this mourning of a child, which is very real to her, and then her best friend is taken. Dany knows that once Cersei has Missandei that she is not going to see Missandei alive again. This is a moment for Cersei where she has a chance maybe to flee, get away, if she surrenders. But anyone who knows Cersei knows that she is not going to make that choice. Her feeling is "If I give up the Throne, I'm dead, and so my only chance now is to win" and that's what she says to Ned Stark in season 1 (one.)

Dany is this young queen coming to try to usurp her, and Cersei is not going to give up the throne this easily. She's captured an enemy, and this is how Cersei deals with enemies. Tyrion's perspective is "While he have these various wars for supremacy and everything, let's not forget about the people who will suffer the most from it. He can envision what will happen to King's Landing if these two armies clash and dragons are involved, and it's an obvious catastrophe. She (Cersei) feels like the odds are actually pretty good for her at this point and she's willing to roll the dice. I think for Cersei the only good prisoner is a dead prisoner "

"She's (Dany) really back where she was at the very beginning. Emotionally, she's alone in the world and and she can't really trust anybody. People have underestimated Dany's strengths many times before, and no one's done really well underestimating her strength. Unlike then she's extremely powerful, and unlike then she's filled a rage that's aimed at one person specifically. I think what's probably echoing in Dany's head in those final moments is Missandei's final words. "Dracarys" is clearly meant for Dany, Missandei knows that her life is over and she's saying, "You know? Light them up."

So, D&D explicitly state everyone's motivation. In the highlighted it confirms that Missandei's motivation is specifically to see King's Landing burn. I do not think that it tracks that they'd (D&D) be ambiguous with Jamie's motivations and clear with everyone else. I think it's pretty conclusive that for now Jamie's motivation is to not go back to kill Cersei, but to be with her again.

Once again, I'll post this quote:

"As much as Jamie cares for Brienne, and admires her and loves her, he's got almost an addiction to Cersei that he just can't break. So, even though he's given a chance at happiness, and some kind of different life for himself, he can't take it. He makes the choice to go back to Cersei."

Contained within is also confirmation of how Jamie feels about Brienne, he loves her.

gguenot · May 6

Nahhh he’s gonna kill her

Jeremy J · May 6

The best part about book Jamie was him wadding up that letter from Cersei and staying in the Riverlands. I still think he is going to try to kill Cersei but they don't want to tell us that for reasons. If that is the case, then this is just so dumb that he would leave and not tell Brienne why.

Gan · May 6

gguenot said:

Nahhh he’s gonna kill her

So you're just going to ignore D&D's clear, explicitly stated motivation that he's going back to be with her, and to not kill her? Why would they state others motivations correctly but not his?

I agree that it's it's incredibly stupid and it massively betrays Jamie's characters arc but I don't see how you can refute the information as given. I don't want Jamie to be with Cersei but I think at some point you have to take D&D at their word.

hisdudeness915 · May 6

I think this is D&D trying to redirect us. It’s painfully obvious that they enjoy zigging when we expect them to zag. So this is just to set up Jamie going back to Cersei so that it’s some big twist when he kills her. Kinda lame but that’s how they tell this story now

Gan · May 6

hisdudeness915 said:

I think this is D&D trying to redirect us. It’s painfully obvious that they enjoy zigging when we expect them to zag. So this is just to set up Jamie going back to Cersei so that it’s some big twist when he kills her. Kinda lame but that’s how they tell this story now

Okay, but why only do that with Jamie?

If Jamie kills Cersei it makes what they put on screen pretty ridiculous. There's no reason to keep this information from Brienne if he truly loves her. She would understand, I think.

hisdudeness915 · May 6

They did it with Arya too. Her popping in the frame at the last second after being out of the episode for a bit was purposeful. They said as much on that “inside the episode.” They wanted us to forget about Arya until she jumped in there and did her thing. I was fine with that one but if Jamie does end up killing Cersei I’m gonna feel like that Brienne scene was basically Jamie lying to the audience just for an AHA! moment.

LoneWolf · May 6

If it's not misdirection, and Jaime really is going back to be with Cersei, then I feel like they've decided to go the route of Arya killing Cersei with Jaime's face. D&D seem intent on surprising the audience, and while that won't surprise a number of theorists out there, it will catch most of the fan base off-guard.

I find it odd that Arya doesn't intend to return to Winterfell. They made a point of her saying that on her way to join Sandor. Makes me wonder what her long-term plan is if she succeeds in killing Cersei.

Gan · May 6

hisdudeness915 said:

They did it with Arya too. Her popping in the frame at the last second after being out of the episode for a bit was purposeful. They said as much on that “inside the episode.” They wanted us to forget about Arya until she jumped in there and did her thing. I was fine with that one but if Jamie does end up killing Cersei I’m gonna feel like that Brienne scene was basically Jamie lying to the audience just for an AHA! moment.

Did they say Arya didn't want to kill the Night King when she ended up killing him regardless? I didn't watch the "Inside the Episode" for episode 3.

gguenot · May 6

They said Jon Snow was dead in the behind the scenes after the Season 5 finale

Gan · May 6

gguenot said:

They said Jon Snow was dead in the behind the scenes after the Season 5 finale

He was dead, that wasn't a lie. He was brought back.

hisdudeness915 · May 6

Are we debating on whether or not content creators will deceive the audience during interviews? Because I think that’s been established that they absolutely will.

Ashley · May 6

Gan said:

gguenot said:

Nahhh he’s gonna kill her

So you're just going to ignore D&D's clear, explicitly stated motivation that he's going back to be with her, and to not kill her? Why would they state others motivations correctly but not his?

I agree that it's it's incredibly stupid and it massively betrays Jamie's characters arc but I don't see how you can refute the information as given. I don't want Jamie to be with Cersei but I think at some point you have to take D&D at their word.

I haven't watched the video yet, but unless there's something missing from your quote, it's definitely not explicitly stated. You can glean what you want from it, but "going back to Cersei" could mean more than one thing. He could be going back to Cersei to kill her with the expectation that he'll die too. He seemed fine with staying at Winterfell until he heard she got an upper hand.

Gan · May 6

Of course creators will deceive their audience sometimes, but I don't personally think that that is the case in this instance. I may be wrong though and if I am I'll own up to it, and be eating tons of crow.

hisdudeness915 · May 6

Gan said:

Of course creators will deceive their audience sometimes, but I don't personally think that that is the case in this instance. I may be wrong though and if I am I'll own up to it, and be eating tons of crow.

No one has to eat crow. We all just have opinions and who gives a shit who’s wrong and right? I can honestly see it going either way. We’re just speculating and we’ll all have another debate about it later after it happens

All the Chickens · May 6

Regardless of what D&D said or even the fact that Jaime going back to Cersei isn't a betrayal of his character, I don't see why that would preclude people from having the opinion that Jaime is not going down there to live out his life with Cersei.

-Jaime knows that Cersei wants him dead. She paid his sellsword friend in gold and castles to assassinate him, if it wasn't apparent enough.
-Based on show logic, Jaime likely has been told off-screen about Cersei and Euron's relationship furthering for political reasons, if he didn't already assume that was the case.
-D&D has stated in post-episode interviews that they intentionally did things just so that you would not see a big twist coming. If they said that Jaime was going with the intention to "stop" Cersei, every fan page would have posts about how Jaime is going to kill Cersei.

Jaime may be obsessed with his sister, but I think most people would characterize him as a realist even in regards to Cersei at this point. He knows that even if she allows Jaime to live, they can't be together now. Jaime only left to go to her after he found out how crazy and reckless she is being. He knows that there is no way out of this alive for Cersei now, unless, I don't know, he gets her to escape in the middle of the night. I'm sure he realizes that she won't try to escape, but it's his sister, so he has to try. More importantly, he likely knows that she won't go down without taking out a lot of innocent human lives with her, so he's trying to stop her from that as well.

I don't think that he is going down there explicitly to kill Cersei, but just to see if he can talk any sense into her (which will likely end with 1 or both of them being killed).

hisdudeness915 · May 6

I do think it would be interesting if he just straight up killed her. Tyrion tried diplomacy and Jamie said “Fuck that. She IS a monster!”

Gan · May 6

hisdudeness915 said:

Gan said:

Of course creators will deceive their audience sometimes, but I don't personally think that that is the case in this instance. I may be wrong though and if I am I'll own up to it, and be eating tons of crow.

No one has to eat crow. We all just have opinions and who gives a shit who’s wrong and right? I can honestly see it going either way. We’re just speculating and we’ll all have another debate about it later after it happens

I care if I'm right because I don't want to be. LOL. I really think if he isn't going there to kill her it's a betrayal of his entire character arc and it makes me a bit sour on this show, not knowing when or IF we'll get the true ending with the books and if it'll play out the same way. It's quite frustrating.

Gan · May 6

All the Chickens said:

Regardless of what D&D said or even the fact that Jaime going back to Cersei isn't a betrayal of his character, I don't see why that would preclude people from having the opinion that Jaime is not going down there to live out his life with Cersei.

-Jaime knows that Cersei wants him dead. She paid his sellsword friend in gold and castles to assassinate him, if it wasn't apparent enough.
-Based on show logic, Jaime likely has been told off-screen about Cersei and Euron's relationship furthering for political reasons, if he didn't already assume that was the case.
-D&D has stated in post-episode interviews that they intentionally did things just so that you would not see a big twist coming. If they said that Jaime was going with the intention to "stop" Cersei, every fan page would have posts about how Jaime is going to kill Cersei.

Jaime may be obsessed with his sister, but I think most people would characterize him as a realist even in regards to Cersei at this point. He knows that even if she allows Jaime to live, they can't be together now. Jaime only left to go to her after he found out how crazy and reckless she is being. He knows that there is no way out of this alive for Cersei now, unless, I don't know, he gets her to escape in the middle of the night. I'm sure he realizes that she won't try to escape, but it's his sister, so he has to try. More importantly, he likely knows that she won't go down without taking out a lot of innocent human lives with her, so he's trying to stop her from that as well.

I don't think that he is going down there explicitly to kill Cersei, but just to see if he can talk any sense into her (which will likely end with 1 or both of them being killed).

You bring up some good points that I strangely didn't even really think about. I just assumed that Jamie is Cersei's true weakness and that she'd welcome him back with open arms. xD.

rkcrawf · May 6

Given that the statement is in the context of addiction, I think D&D is telling us Jamie wants to be with Cersei (true or not). And yes, I believe given the choice between being alone, Euron, or Jamie, she would take Jamie. She'll make him pay a price (like killing Tyrion or something), but she would take him back.

JaimieT · May 6

Tyrion is definitely going to die. There's way too much shock value there, and they teased it twice this episode to drain the tease itself of shock value.

It'll probably be the culminating scene of tomorrow's episode, because it won't hold as much weight in the finale.

awookiee · May 7

All the Chickens said:

Regardless of what D&D said or even the fact that Jaime going back to Cersei isn't a betrayal of his character, I don't see why that would preclude people from having the opinion that Jaime is not going down there to live out his life with Cersei.

-Jaime knows that Cersei wants him dead. She paid his sellsword friend in gold and castles to assassinate him, if it wasn't apparent enough.
-Based on show logic, Jaime likely has been told off-screen about Cersei and Euron's relationship furthering for political reasons, if he didn't already assume that was the case.
-D&D has stated in post-episode interviews that they intentionally did things just so that you would not see a big twist coming. If they said that Jaime was going with the intention to "stop" Cersei, every fan page would have posts about how Jaime is going to kill Cersei.

Jaime may be obsessed with his sister, but I think most people would characterize him as a realist even in regards to Cersei at this point. He knows that even if she allows Jaime to live, they can't be together now. Jaime only left to go to her after he found out how crazy and reckless she is being. He knows that there is no way out of this alive for Cersei now, unless, I don't know, he gets her to escape in the middle of the night. I'm sure he realizes that she won't try to escape, but it's his sister, so he has to try. More importantly, he likely knows that she won't go down without taking out a lot of innocent human lives with her, so he's trying to stop her from that as well.

I don't think that he is going down there explicitly to kill Cersei, but just to see if he can talk any sense into her (which will likely end with 1 or both of them being killed).

Personally this is the best explanation to my thought process and expectations. I don't think it's a betrayal of character at all. Somebody referred to Cersei as Jaime's addiction and I think that is spot on. No matter what she does, he will always love her because that is what he has known and felt his entire life. Tyrion even told him you knew exactly what she was and you still stood by her side.

For those of you that think Jaime is just going down there to kill her. Do you really think he has the thought process and ability to kill the woman that he believes is carrying his child. You saw how he reacted after Myrcella died and how happy he was finally being able to express emotions as a father.

Gan · May 13

It brings me great displeasure in saying this, but I told ya'll. I REALLY did not want to be right. But it just goes to show that when it comes to GOT you should usually trust what D&D say in the after show, they're mostly being honest, no matter how flippin dumb it is.
i just couldn't see a scenario where they explicitly state all characters motives, honestly, with the exception of Jamie. i get that we all (most of us) agree that he should have went back to do what we wanted completely, unfortunately that didn't happen. Gotta subvert those expectations. (except they weren't subverted cuz they basically told us what was gonna happen. lol)

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[SPOILERS] Inside the Episode 804 - The Last of the Starks (Behind the scenes)

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