804 - The Last of the Starks

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  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    By the way, are they trying to portray Dany as somewhat sociopathic? It's at least the second time where she has turned on this charming/vulnerable personality when discussing something with a Stark, then when she doesn't get what she is wanting out of them during the conversation - BAM - she drops this veil of charm and vulnerability and her tone and demeanor immediately turns into shittiness.

    Of course, I'm referencing her library conversation with Sansa in episode 2 and her private conversation with Jon in this episode.
    Elisaalina_macawookiee
  • By the way, are they trying to portray Dany as somewhat sociopathic? It's at least the second time where she has turned on this charming/vulnerable personality when discussing something with a Stark, then when she doesn't get what she is wanting out of them during the conversation - BAM - she drops this veil of charm and vulnerability and her tone and demeanor immediately turns into shittiness.

    Of course, I'm referencing her library conversation with Sansa in episode 2 and her private conversation with Jon in this episode.
    I did think it was interesting how she went from begging and teary to cold and threatening.  Looking back at the conversation with Sansa, it does seem a bit sociopathic - basically faking emotions to get people to do what she wants, then when it doesn't work, she switches it off.  Plus we saw that giving Gendry Stormsend was more about trying to win him over vs. actual appreciation of anything he did.

    I always liked her and I feel terrible that this is how it is now.  Thinking back to her triumphant arrival on Westeros with three gorgeous beasts and a huge army.  She took a lot of advice from her supposed wise advisors that has brought her to this sad, weakened position where she is about to burn them all.  
    Elisaalina_mac
  • I've never heard the term "Fan Bankruptcy" but given the context it's being used, I think I'm ready to file. I've been hooked on this show since nearly the beginning. I've followed along and let the show take me on an incredible journey, but last night I realized that I stopped caring.
    CapeGabeken haleElisaalina_mac
  • bizmarkiefaderbizmarkiefader San Francisco
    I still think Dany goes back to Essos. When she was ranting about how nobody likes her here I was screaming at the TV YOU'RE SO CLOSE. Nobody likes you here cause you just marched in and declared you own them based on your shitty dad. Go back to where they want you, you have a perfect out and your claim isn't what you thought it was anyway. Should have done it before they merc'd your dragon and BFF.
    ken halegjames80
  • TravisTravis CA
    edited May 2019
    Fan Bankruptcy (Or: How I Learned to Stop Caring About Esoterics and Love the Double Ds)



    (sorry if that joke has already been made, I arrived at 150 comments and being at work I had to jump forward)
    Elisaalina_macbbordR.
  • edited May 2019
    My overall meta issue with the show is the pacing. I wish they had done 8-10 episodes (with the two plus sized battles). I am having trouble picturing all of this wrapping up in 2 episodes. The climatic battle has to happen, or at least start, next week, but Jon, Arya/Hound, and Jamie all just left Winterfell. Then you have to have some satisfying wrap-up for all of these characters in the last episode. I will be shocked if it doesn't feel rushed. 

    I thought the funeral/dinner party scene was really good, except for the turning Dany into the stereotypical "crazy girl." We've seen it before with other femaie leads (Skyler), and I hope they don't do that to her. Some of it is within character history for her as she loves her "fire and blood", but to get her to villain in 2 episodes would be tough (see previous point). That's a mega heel-turn.

    Picked up from the HBO feature...the scorpion ballista is a newer model. 65% bigger and improved over last season's model, per the show. I don't really buy the first shot catching a dragon unless the dragon was daydreaming. I do buy, like flak, that filling the sky with bolts would make the dragons ineffective. The bolts are also modified, FYI, to do more damage.

    Several chances to end the war. Euron could have killed the survivors easily. Cersei could have used her calvary outside the gates of KL. But as a throwback to last week, we see why it was important for Dany and Jon to not lead the vanguard (all of the White Walkers have spears and the NK was hidden). Also, had Dany gone South first, she would have run into the same problem...human shields in the Red Keep.

    edit: I have no idea WTF Jamie is doing. Gonna kill Cersei? Gonna save her? Very confusing dialogue there.

    Elisaalina_mac
  • No she didn't, She couldn't have held back, taken the iron throne and said to the north come to Kings landing and we'll fight them there. Instead she choose to put "her destiny" on hold, because she believed in Jon and loved him. But how do the show writers portray her after the battle. No acknowledgement of her scarfice and someone untrustworthy and not fit to rule. Sansa even says I don't trust her, even before she finds out about Jon's true identity. Its her war now to win or lose. She helped them and didn't question their tactics , and by not doing so, she lost her advantage against Cersi. Do you really think if you had a great army and lost most of it because of inept military advice you would seriously listen and follow the advise of three characters who hid in the crypt while the war raged around them. 
    This is some Grade-A Dany stanning. Someone believing that their magic blood gives them the right to absolute power over lands that are foreign to them and then fighting for those lands not to be obliterated isn't a sacrifice. Why would I follow you if you won't even fight for the lands and people you supposedly want to rule and protect? You can say all you want about taking Kings Landing first, but that would mean that all of Westeros north of Kings Landing would have been obliterated in a icy apocalypse. And they cannot take that many refugees coming into Kings Landing, so the Night Kings army would have at least doubled in size.

    It's no ones fault but her own if she made what you consider to be a bad decision. She is the one who decided to listen to these military advisers who told her not to attack Kings Landing as soon as she arrived in Westeros. The leader takes the blame. That's leadership.

    tl;dr 
    It's dumb that she is trying to convince people that not allowing "her" lands to be overrun by an army of dead people and ice necromancers is an act of selfless charity. In my opinion, the writers want you to understand that, instead of yelling "YASSSSS QUEEN, YOU TELL EM'!"
    The problem is the show is portraying the only reason the north is going to kings landing is bc of Jon. He’s the only northerner loyal or grateful to Dany. Which is fucking BULLSHIT! Jon couldn’t even give Dany a toast?! Especially since it was her army that took the overwhelming losses and no other armies beside the decimated north bothered to show up. Dany should be viewed as a saint to Sansa and the rest, but nah she crazy cause she burned traitors who wouldn’t kneel. I don’t see ya’ll calling Sansa out for torturing and murdering a hostage. Ramsay deserved it but at the end of the day it’s the same thing. 

    For once, they need to do one common sense thing with Dany Dragons and army. It would have been nice for Dany to hit Eurons ships from behind. But if she doesn’t take out the wall defenses on a moonless night preferably when it’s foggy then idk. Also how bout she finds where Eurons ships are and lays waste to them right afterwards. Then Dario needs to get his ass over and put together a senseable military attack on a fortified castle with some inside info on the GC, bc if up to Jon it’ll be in the middle of the day with the Dothraki leading the charge.




    majjam0770Elisaalina_mac
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    edited May 2019
    rkcrawf said:

    I thought the funeral/dinner party scene was really good, except for the turning Dany into the stereotypical "crazy girl." We've seen it before with other femaie leads (Skyler), and I hope they don't do that to her. Some of it is within character history for her as she loves her "fire and blood", but to get her to villain in 2 episodes would be tough (see previous point). That's a mega heel-turn.

    I don't know that it's stereotypical anymore than the "stereotypical" negative traits they've given a lot of characters, girls and boys. Having a quick temper and this idea that she is destined to rule over people because of her magic blood have always been a part of her character. It's not a heel turn. People just don't like it because they want her to win and come off as the hero.

    For gods sake, she fed an innocent man to her dragons beneath the pyramid after Ser Barristan Selmy was killed by the Sons of the Harpy, JUST so she could get a confession out of someone else (who was also innocent). There was no trial, no proof or evidence of any wrong-doing, nothing. She had her dragons burn and eat an innocent man because she was angry. It's way worse than what she did to the Tarly's.

    All of these character flaws in her are being tested with more pressure than ever: someone else has a better claim than her, two of her dragons are dead, Jorah is dead, Missandei is dead, etc.

    People may not like it because they are invested in rooting for her character, but it would track completely if Dany goes full mad queen now.
    ken haleb.larevalina_macBenSanguinePenguinDeeDaveyMacOldGriswoldweeniegirl
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    rkcrawf said:

    edit: I have no idea WTF Jamie is doing. Gonna kill Cersei? Gonna save her? Very confusing dialogue there.

    The writers don't want you to know that, and I think that's understandable way to play it.
    awookiee
  • lengmolengmo RTP, NC
    edited May 2019
    Sorry if someone else said it, but as far as Euron knows, Tyrion could have found out about Cersei's pregnancy from Qyburn.


    What I want to see in Episode 5:

    Arya and the Hound spend most of the episode trying to find good roast chicken.

    Tyrion smuggles Drogon into the Red Keep through the sewers.
    TravisSanguinePenguinawookieebbordR.budesigns
  • rkcrawf said:

    I thought the funeral/dinner party scene was really good, except for the turning Dany into the stereotypical "crazy girl." We've seen it before with other femaie leads (Skyler), and I hope they don't do that to her. Some of it is within character history for her as she loves her "fire and blood", but to get her to villain in 2 episodes would be tough (see previous point). That's a mega heel-turn.

    I don't know that it's stereotypical anymore than the "stereotypical" negative traits they've given a lot of characters, girls and boys. Having a quick temper and this idea that she is destined to rule over people because of her magic blood have always been a part of her character. It's not a heel turn. People just don't like it because they want her to win and come off as the hero.

    For gods sake, she fed an innocent man to her dragons beneath the pyramid after Ser Barristan Selmy was killed by the Sons of the Harpy, JUST so she could get a confession out of someone else (who was also innocent). There was no trial, no proof or evidence of any wrong-doing, nothing. She had her dragons burn and eat an innocent man because she was angry. It's way worse than what she did to the Tarly's.

    All of these character flaws in her are being tested with more pressure than ever: someone else has a better claim than her, two of her dragons are dead, Jorah is dead, Missandei is dead, etc.

    People may not like it because they are invested in rooting for her character, but it would track completely if Dany goes full mad queen now.
    I don't particularly want her to win (or lose). I guess I am seeing a character that was all about the lower class, breaking the wheel, and letting her army choose to follow her, develop into someone who demands blind loyalty. And I can kinda get that since time has passed, and characters evolve. That was end of S6, I think? What I don't want to see is her become this unhinged "mad" villain. If she ends the series as an "ends justifies the means" person, I'm cool with that. If she ends it as someone that needs to be institutionalized or a one-note "kill anyone that isn't with me" approach, I'll be disappointed. She's always been a nuanced character, and I don't want them to make her batshit.
    Elisa
  • No she didn't, She couldn't have held back, taken the iron throne and said to the north come to Kings landing and we'll fight them there. Instead she choose to put "her destiny" on hold, because she believed in Jon and loved him. But how do the show writers portray her after the battle. No acknowledgement of her scarfice and someone untrustworthy and not fit to rule. Sansa even says I don't trust her, even before she finds out about Jon's true identity. Its her war now to win or lose. She helped them and didn't question their tactics , and by not doing so, she lost her advantage against Cersi. Do you really think if you had a great army and lost most of it because of inept military advice you would seriously listen and follow the advise of three characters who hid in the crypt while the war raged around them. 
    This is some Grade-A Dany stanning. Someone believing that their magic blood gives them the right to absolute power over lands that are foreign to them and then fighting for those lands not to be obliterated isn't a sacrifice. Why would I follow you if you won't even fight for the lands and people you supposedly want to rule and protect? You can say all you want about taking Kings Landing first, but that would mean that all of Westeros north of Kings Landing would have been obliterated in a icy apocalypse. And they cannot take that many refugees coming into Kings Landing, so the Night Kings army would have at least doubled in size.

    It's no ones fault but her own if she made what you consider to be a bad decision. She is the one who decided to listen to these military advisers who told her not to attack Kings Landing as soon as she arrived in Westeros. The leader takes the blame. That's leadership.

    tl;dr 
    It's dumb that she is trying to convince people that her not allowing "her" lands to be overrun by an army of dead people and ice necromancers is an act of selfless charity. In my opinion, the writers want you to understand that, instead of yelling "YASSSSS QUEEN, YOU TELL EM'!"
    I agree 100% with but the only argument I can think of for her going to KL first (this only works in hindsight) would be that the NK wouldn't have gotten a dragon and thus would have taken him longer to figure out another way around The Wall.
    You are both missing the argument here. Its about the character and what makes them do what they do. You can't suddenly change a characters  core behaviour in the last 3 episodes of a show, without giving the viewer a reason to believe they would suddenly become that person. Dany's character has behaved and grown to be who she is, the same way Sansa has grown. Dismissed and abused by men, who saw them as nothing but weak objects, they have both become powerful figures within their worlds. However Sansa is now portrayed and behaves as a strong political lady of Winterfell, whereas Dany is now portrayed as an instant hot head who doesn't know or understand the world around her. In 7 seasons her  character has shown restraint in amassing military might and understanding the political and social workings of an area to her benefit, to the point that people have crossed the seas for her and would  die for her in a blink of an eye, Yet the show wants us to forget her achievements (Freer of slaves) and smart military wins in order to portray an irrational selfish power hungry person whose own arrogance and blind anger will lead to her downfall or others close to her.  

    Anyway I'm done with discussing what, where, what, this and and should have. We all take something different out of the show, so i'll just enjoy the last 2 episodes for what they are to me. the end of a story. Not the way I would have liked, but and end still the same. 

    PS i'm not shitting on the show as a spectacle. Its set new benchmarks for TV production and  I've greatly enjoyed that journey, its just for me the characters and plot have not progressed the way i had hoped for. 
    rustywright4Elisa
  • On a better show, it would be a good sign that some people are team Dany and some are team Jon. The debate between Varys and Tyrion raises a really great issue - should you keep defecting to a more 'optimal' political side whenever it's possible? It seems logical, but the problem is that, like Varys, you're constantly shifting allegiance and you can't build trust and stability. Or you can take the Tyrion route: find a *good* path and commit to it, even if it's not the *best* path.

    But if Dany goes on a genocidal rampage that's less interesting. Instead of "optimal vs. stable" it's just good vs. evil.
  • All of these people declaring fan bankruptcy need to calm down. Especially the book readers. I’m sorry this epic fantasy show about an imaginary planet with dragons, an army of the dead, and magic doesn’t exactly conform to the laws of physics.  It’s a story not a documentary.  The bitterness of the book reader portion of the fan base is becoming unbearable. For years you guys had the smugness of a westerosy lord because you knew exactly what was going to happen.  Now that you are in the same boat as the show only watchers you nit pick and tear down every twist and turn or decision on the show. Game of thrones doesn’t unfold exactly how you thought it was going to? Welcome to the club. That’s what game of thrones does. It moves all the characters in a direction, makes you care about the characters, and then dumps the thing on its head. It’s happened over and over again and it’s one of the reasons we’ve all invested almost a decade in this show.  The final season has everything fans have loved about the show for the previous seven seasons in spades. Epic battles, political seesawing, character deaths, and most of emotional reaction invoking storytelling. For the love of god take a break from shitting all over this season and just enjoy it, because this is it... two more episodes and it’s over. It’s hard enough to make a story about a single character come to a satisfying conclusion. GOT has to do that for dozens of characters.  There’s a lot more I’d like to say but I have to go to work.  Just sit back and let GOT do what it always has done... make you laugh, make you cry, piss you off, and you might just get some enjoyment out of these final two episodes. . 
    Thank you.  The Book Reader Rebellion needs to be put down, post haste.
    rkcrawfdragonsFalconUnderwoodSanguinePenguingjames80
  • ARon missed a huge money making opportunity by not making an Official Unofficial Fan Bankruptcy Form. He'd be on his second or third printing by now.
    darthcaedus1138Travis
  • HunkuleseHunkulese Québec, Canada
    edited May 2019
    A lot of sexism going on both in the show and online. The argument between Tyrion and Varys about who would be the better leader was ridiculous. The only reason Dany wouldn't be the ideal choice is that she doesn't have a penis. She's strong, she's level headed, she's just, she's merciful, she's against tyranny, she's smart, she listens to her advisors, her people love her, she learns from her mistakes. Granting Gendry Storm's End was an extremely shrewd move that demonstrates numerous examples of why she'd make a good leader. Sure, she wants absolute power, but she lives in a society where rulers get absolute power. She's also been right about pretty much everything. In a time of peace, Dany would be the perfect ruler.

    Jon is the worst choice. He's an idiot who's really good at swinging his sword. What makes him a good leader? The first time he was named a leader, his own men murdered him. The second time, he bent the knee in like a weekend. He's shown zero acumen for political or military strategy. And he was a dick to Ghost. He's too stupid to keep his actual birth a secret. If he truly doesn't want the throne and wants Dany to be Queen, he has to know it's only going to cause massive problems by telling people. And people blaming Sansa for telling Tyrion, fuck off. From Sansa's position, it was absolutely the right move. Jon's unwilling to put his people first, someone has to.
    rustywright4ken haleJaimieTElisamjmulladydarthcaedus1138SanguinePenguinpoorfoolweeniegirl
  • While watching the end I was thinking- What if Missandei had just made a surprise push for Cersei and went over the edge of the platform with her?  I believe her hands were bound but she might’ve been able to do that.  
    rkcrawfElisaTravis
  • While watching the end I was thinking- What if Missandei had just made a surprise push for Cersei and went over the edge of the platform with her?  I believe her hands were bound but she might’ve been able to do that.  

    All I was thinking when Cersei was holding her arm telling her to make her last words is HUG HER AND JUMP!
    rkcrawfmajjam0770ElisaSanguinePenguin
  • AnominalAnominal San Francisco Bay Area
    edited May 2019
    rkcrawf said:


    edit: I have no idea WTF Jamie is doing. Gonna kill Cersei? Gonna save her? Very confusing dialogue there.



    I'm pretty sure they wrote it to try to make you think he's reverting to being a bad guy, and Brienne certainly thinks that, and he partially is trying to convince himself that so he can go and do what he thinks has to be done, which is to be a Queenslayer to get the matching set.

    He was thinking that all the bad things he's done in his life was because of her. (He doesn't list his kingslaying act as one of the bad things.) And she needs to be removed. 

    What I don't remember is if he knows she's pregnant with their child. And how that affects things.

    But that might be giving them too much credit, so who knows. 
    thepastryarchy
  • Anominal said:
    rkcrawf said:


    edit: I have no idea WTF Jamie is doing. Gonna kill Cersei? Gonna save her? Very confusing dialogue there.





    What I don't remember is if he knows she's pregnant with their child. And how that affects things.

    But that might be giving them too much credit, so who knows. 
    That tracks. He knows. It was in the previously on. She told him last season when he claims there's no one left to fight for, and he and Tyrion talk about it in S8E2. 
    SanguinePenguin
  • I’m not referring to any specific posts here; this is just a general fandom rant. I’m so over all the talk about how the double Ds obviously don’t care anymore, that they’ve given up or lost interest or are too busy thinking about their next project, just because people don’t agree with where they are taking the show. Look, I’m not saying that it’s perfect or that every decision they make is flawless, but it’s completely ridiculous to suggest that they would just casually half-ass what is arguably the biggest show ever. Or that they would make decisions to somehow spite the creator of the story for not finishing the books in time. I’m not saying the show is beyond reproach, or that some things couldn’t have been done better. People are fallible and mistakes happen, or sometimes things don’t play out like expected or have to be rushed for whatever reason. Sometimes hindsight is 20/20. Making a show like this is an enormous undertaking that literally requires thousands of people across the globe working at as close to the top of their game as they can get. It’s like doing approximately 5 feature films in about a year and a half of time (or less, some seasons). They may drop the ball sometimes, but nobody is dropping it on purpose. Again, that’s not to say that some criticism isn’t warranted or even objectively correct, but some of it is just way out of hand.

    dragonsAll the ChickensUnderwoodmostlywrightmjmulladyDemerolSanguinePenguinawookieeDeeDaveyMacand 3 others.
  • All of these people declaring fan bankruptcy need to calm down. Especially the book readers. I’m sorry this epic fantasy show about an imaginary planet with dragons, an army of the dead, and magic doesn’t exactly conform to the laws of physics.  It’s a story not a documentary.  The bitterness of the book reader portion of the fan base is becoming unbearable. For years you guys had the smugness of a westerosy lord because you knew exactly what was going to happen.  Now that you are in the same boat as the show only watchers you nit pick and tear down every twist and turn or decision on the show. Game of thrones doesn’t unfold exactly how you thought it was going to? Welcome to the club. That’s what game of thrones does. It moves all the characters in a direction, makes you care about the characters, and then dumps the thing on its head. It’s happened over and over again and it’s one of the reasons we’ve all invested almost a decade in this show.  The final season has everything fans have loved about the show for the previous seven seasons in spades. Epic battles, political seesawing, character deaths, and most of emotional reaction invoking storytelling. For the love of god take a break from shitting all over this season and just enjoy it, because this is it... two more episodes and it’s over. It’s hard enough to make a story about a single character come to a satisfying conclusion. GOT has to do that for dozens of characters.  There’s a lot more I’d like to say but I have to go to work.  Just sit back and let GOT do what it always has done... make you laugh, make you cry, piss you off, and you might just get some enjoyment out of these final two episodes. . 
    Amen!!! 
    mostlywright
  • AnominalAnominal San Francisco Bay Area
    edited May 2019
    No she didn't, She couldn't have held back, taken the iron throne and said to the north come to Kings landing and we'll fight them there. Instead she choose to put "her destiny" on hold, because she believed in Jon and loved him. But how do the show writers portray her after the battle. No acknowledgement of her scarfice and someone untrustworthy and not fit to rule. Sansa even says I don't trust her, even before she finds out about Jon's true identity. Its her war now to win or lose. She helped them and didn't question their tactics , and by not doing so, she lost her advantage against Cersi. Do you really think if you had a great army and lost most of it because of inept military advice you would seriously listen and follow the advise of three characters who hid in the crypt while the war raged around them. 
    This is some Grade-A Dany stanning. Someone believing that their magic blood gives them the right to absolute power over lands that are foreign to them and then fighting for those lands not to be obliterated isn't a sacrifice. Why would I follow you if you won't even fight for the lands and people you supposedly want to rule and protect? You can say all you want about taking Kings Landing first, but that would mean that all of Westeros north of Kings Landing would have been obliterated in a icy apocalypse. And they cannot take that many refugees coming into Kings Landing, so the Night Kings army would have at least doubled in size.

    It's no ones fault but her own if she made what you consider to be a bad decision. She is the one who decided to listen to these military advisers who told her not to attack Kings Landing as soon as she arrived in Westeros. The leader takes the blame. That's leadership.

    tl;dr 
    It's dumb that she is trying to convince people that her not allowing "her" lands to be overrun by an army of dead people and ice necromancers is an act of selfless charity. In my opinion, the writers want you to understand that, instead of yelling "YASSSSS QUEEN, YOU TELL EM'!"
    I agree 100% with but the only argument I can think of for her going to KL first (this only works in hindsight) would be that the NK wouldn't have gotten a dragon and thus would have taken him longer to figure out another way around The Wall.
    You are both missing the argument here. Its about the character and what makes them do what they do. You can't suddenly change a characters  core behaviour in the last 3 episodes of a show, without giving the viewer a reason to believe they would suddenly become that person. Dany's character has behaved and grown to be who she is, the same way Sansa has grown. Dismissed and abused by men, who saw them as nothing but weak objects, they have both become powerful figures within their worlds. However Sansa is now portrayed and behaves as a strong political lady of Winterfell, whereas Dany is now portrayed as an instant hot head who doesn't know or understand the world around her. In 7 seasons her  character has shown restraint in amassing military might and understanding the political and social workings of an area to her benefit, to the point that people have crossed the seas for her and would  die for her in a blink of an eye, Yet the show wants us to forget her achievements (Freer of slaves) and smart military wins in order to portray an irrational selfish power hungry person whose own arrogance and blind anger will lead to her downfall or others close to her.  

    Anyway I'm done with discussing what, where, what, this and and should have. We all take something different out of the show, so i'll just enjoy the last 2 episodes for what they are to me. the end of a story. Not the way I would have liked, but and end still the same. 

    PS i'm not shitting on the show as a spectacle. Its set new benchmarks for TV production and  I've greatly enjoyed that journey, its just for me the characters and plot have not progressed the way i had hoped for. 
    I don't expect you specifically to reply since you said you were done, and I'm only just entering the conversation, and maybe someone else will. 

    To me it makes sense. With the show only, and ignoring book knowledge, Sansa has been taught by the best (and some okays) starting with Catelyn when she was a little girl and was placed in positions where she had to learn because she had no power. Dany learned along the way but she gained power rapidly through smart tactical tricks often using the dragons. She didn't have to learn actual ruling because her dragons solved all problems including how to get people to worship and love her. (Counter: Sansa did have the Stark name to rely on to get the North to her side.) She started with Viserys and then Khal Drogo and then learned through trial and error. She did get Tyrion and Varys but she's always been in a position to listen or ignore as she chooses. Sansa had Catelyn, Littlefinger, and even Cersei taught her valuable lessons.

    This is why Sansa brings up questions of food storage and recuperating while Dany spouts power lines and demands action. Dany understands campaign slogans while Sansa knows who to write policy and govern.

    And on Danny's end, she has shown some patience, but she's also so close but it seems further away. She always lucks in to a big break that ends up amplifying her army and her political power. Pretty much everything she's gained has been through dragon brute force. If she can't think of something she relies on them as them the default answer. When she hits a set back, it's dragon time. She's hot some major setbacks, so why think too hard when dragon time has always worked before. 
  • Marci said:
    I’m not referring to any specific posts here; this is just a general fandom rant. I’m so over all the talk about how the double Ds obviously don’t care anymore, that they’ve given up or lost interest or are too busy thinking about their next project, just because people don’t agree with where they are taking the show. Look, I’m not saying that it’s perfect or that every decision they make is flawless, but it’s completely ridiculous to suggest that they would just casually half-ass what is arguably the biggest show ever. Or that they would make decisions to somehow spite the creator of the story for not finishing the books in time. I’m not saying the show is beyond reproach, or that some things couldn’t have been done better. People are fallible and mistakes happen, or sometimes things don’t play out like expected or have to be rushed for whatever reason. Sometimes hindsight is 20/20. Making a show like this is an enormous undertaking that literally requires thousands of people across the globe working at as close to the top of their game as they can get. It’s like doing approximately 5 feature films in about a year and a half of time (or less, some seasons). They may drop the ball sometimes, but nobody is dropping it on purpose. Again, that’s not to say that some criticism isn’t warranted or even objectively correct, but some of it is just way out of hand.

    But Starbucks!!!! 

    /s
    MarciSanguinePenguin
  • Doctor_NickDoctor_Nick Terminus
    edited May 2019
    FTFY: 
    I don't understand why you nitpickers are complaining about this show.  Shows do what shows do.  They are unknowable and unjudgeable.  There's Dragons, Zombies and POLITICS!  What more could you want?  Plotting and realism?  Duh, there's dragons and zombies, how could a show about that stuff be realistic?  And there's obviously no difference in quality between the different seasons, it's the same show as it always was, obvi!

    Wellp, I gotta go watch some Star Wars, another franchise where, amazingly, all the movies are exactly of the same quality level.  

    johnphinny said:
    All of these people declaring fan bankruptcy need to calm down. Especially the book readers. I’m sorry this epic fantasy show about an imaginary planet with dragons, an army of the dead, and magic doesn’t exactly conform to the laws of physics.  It’s a story not a documentary.  The bitterness of the book reader portion of the fan base is becoming unbearable. For years you guys had the smugness of a westerosy lord because you knew exactly what was going to happen.  Now that you are in the same boat as the show only watchers you nit pick and tear down every twist and turn or decision on the show. Game of thrones doesn’t unfold exactly how you thought it was going to? Welcome to the club. That’s what game of thrones does. It moves all the characters in a direction, makes you care about the characters, and then dumps the thing on its head. It’s happened over and over again and it’s one of the reasons we’ve all invested almost a decade in this show.  The final season has everything fans have loved about the show for the previous seven seasons in spades. Epic battles, political seesawing, character deaths, and most of emotional reaction invoking storytelling. For the love of god take a break from shitting all over this season and just enjoy it, because this is it... two more episodes and it’s over. It’s hard enough to make a story about a single character come to a satisfying conclusion. GOT has to do that for dozens of characters.  There’s a lot more I’d like to say but I have to go to work.  Just sit back and let GOT do what it always has done... make you laugh, make you cry, piss you off, and you might just get some enjoyment out of these final two episodes. . 


    It seems apparent to me that there were another several seasons in the show, so barring casting, financial or technical problems, I'm not sure what the explanation for this rushed and truncated ending is other than they want out.

    Marci said:
    I’m not referring to any specific posts here; this is just a general fandom rant. I’m so over all the talk about how the double Ds obviously don’t care anymore, that they’ve given up or lost interest or are too busy thinking about their next project, just because people don’t agree with where they are taking the show. Look, I’m not saying that it’s perfect or that every decision they make is flawless, but it’s completely ridiculous to suggest that they would just casually half-ass what is arguably the biggest show ever. Or that they would make decisions to somehow spite the creator of the story for not finishing the books in time. I’m not saying the show is beyond reproach, or that some things couldn’t have been done better. People are fallible and mistakes happen, or sometimes things don’t play out like expected or have to be rushed for whatever reason. Sometimes hindsight is 20/20. Making a show like this is an enormous undertaking that literally requires thousands of people across the globe working at as close to the top of their game as they can get. It’s like doing approximately 5 feature films in about a year and a half of time (or less, some seasons). They may drop the ball sometimes, but nobody is dropping it on purpose. Again, that’s not to say that some criticism isn’t warranted or even objectively correct, but some of it is just way out of hand.




    alexander.klassenalina_macbbordNympheria
  • HunkuleseHunkulese Québec, Canada
    I also don't think there's any chance that Dany goes on a dragon bombing run next episode unless the bad writing is intentional. There's no way they make the dragons vulnerable this episode, show all the ballistae on the ramparts, and then Dany just YOLOs into all that. Not to mention that the final scene works a whole lot better if Dany had two threatening dragons standing behind her.
    Elisa
  • All of these people declaring fan bankruptcy need to calm down. Especially the book readers. I’m sorry this epic fantasy show about an imaginary planet with dragons, an army of the dead, and magic doesn’t exactly conform to the laws of physics.  It’s a story not a documentary.  The bitterness of the book reader portion of the fan base is becoming unbearable. For years you guys had the smugness of a westerosy lord because you knew exactly what was going to happen.  Now that you are in the same boat as the show only watchers you nit pick and tear down every twist and turn or decision on the show. Game of thrones doesn’t unfold exactly how you thought it was going to? Welcome to the club. That’s what game of thrones does. It moves all the characters in a direction, makes you care about the characters, and then dumps the thing on its head. It’s happened over and over again and it’s one of the reasons we’ve all invested almost a decade in this show.  The final season has everything fans have loved about the show for the previous seven seasons in spades. Epic battles, political seesawing, character deaths, and most of emotional reaction invoking storytelling. For the love of god take a break from shitting all over this season and just enjoy it, because this is it... two more episodes and it’s over. It’s hard enough to make a story about a single character come to a satisfying conclusion. GOT has to do that for dozens of characters.  There’s a lot more I’d like to say but I have to go to work.  Just sit back and let GOT do what it always has done... make you laugh, make you cry, piss you off, and you might just get some enjoyment out of these final two episodes. . 

    Thank you for telling me how to watch TV. I didn't know I was doing it wrong. I'm really dumb so that happens. You'll have to forgive me because I thought dragons were real and I'm really taking it hard finding out they are make believe. Hopefully Michael Bay will direct the remaining episodes so I can enjoy some good explosions. Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

    Seriously though, there are some of us who were drawn to Game of Thrones because it was so well written. Bad things happened to good people but the characters acted normally and didn't do things for "reasons" just to move the plot. When GRRM screwed everyone by not finishing in a timely manner The Double D's were forced to write fan fiction and like a lot of fan fiction it's crap. I'm supposed to pretend it's good when it's not even close?

    So tough shit, I'll continue to shit on the show I once loved as I watch the remaining episodes because I'm fairly sure it's the only ending we are going to get.


    Gabe

    Fan Bankrupt since May 2019

     

    ken haleSchluppDummyElisaalina_macbennytubebbordNympheria
  • AnominalAnominal San Francisco Bay Area
    FTFY: 
    I don't understand why you nitpickers are complaining about this show.  Shows do what shows do.  They are unknowable and unjudgeable.  There's Dragons, Zombies and POLITICS!  What more could you want?  Plotting and realism?  Duh, there's dragons and zombies, how could a show about that stuff be realistic?  And there's obviously no difference in quality between the different seasons, it's the same show as it always was, obvi!

    Wellp, I gotta go watch some Star Wars, another franchise where, amazingly, all the movies are exactly of the same quality level.  



    I'm disappointed to see this type of argument come up. It's a bad argument that is never good unless you're someone who doesn't watch fiction and completely unfamiliar with how it works. You can't tell me that you don't have a line in terms of believability. You have to know what suspension of disbelief means and that for everyone it's going to be different. It's all the more ridiculous to say the show doesn't need plot! What does that even mean? If next week they begin the fight and all of a sudden the Night King shows up and Dany and Cersei have to team up to fight against him is that okay? No plot necessary. Just more dragons and zombies.
    Elisadarthcaedus1138rustywright4
  • chriskchrisk Indianapolis
    edited May 2019
    rkcrawf said:

    I thought the funeral/dinner party scene was really good, except for the turning Dany into the stereotypical "crazy girl." We've seen it before with other femaie leads (Skyler), and I hope they don't do that to her. Some of it is within character history for her as she loves her "fire and blood", but to get her to villain in 2 episodes would be tough (see previous point). That's a mega heel-turn.

    I don't know that it's stereotypical anymore than the "stereotypical" negative traits they've given a lot of characters, girls and boys. Having a quick temper and this idea that she is destined to rule over people because of her magic blood have always been a part of her character. It's not a heel turn. People just don't like it because they want her to win and come off as the hero.

    For gods sake, she fed an innocent man to her dragons beneath the pyramid after Ser Barristan Selmy was killed by the Sons of the Harpy, JUST so she could get a confession out of someone else (who was also innocent). There was no trial, no proof or evidence of any wrong-doing, nothing. She had her dragons burn and eat an innocent man because she was angry. It's way worse than what she did to the Tarly's.

    All of these character flaws in her are being tested with more pressure than ever: someone else has a better claim than her, two of her dragons are dead, Jorah is dead, Missandei is dead, etc.

    People may not like it because they are invested in rooting for her character, but it would track completely if Dany goes full mad queen now.
    Don't forget burying Ducksauce and her handmaiden alive in Qarth.

    Pretty much anyone she burned alive instead of something quicker is a questionable choice. I think the witch and the slavemaster probably deserved it. Not sure about anyone else. The Tarlys could've just been shot, hung, throats cut, etc..
  • Natter CastNatter Cast San Francisco, CA
    And again we see that Euron is clearly the player character. #ManInBlack 
    Elisa
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