804 - The Last of the Starks

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  • Did Tyrion f up in this episode? I mean, sure he failed to get Miss Sunday back, but is that a mistake on his part? Or some unachievable goal? Where there other options for getting Missandei back from Cersei? 
    Youngelpaso
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    rkcrawf said:
    Miss Sunday

    You just blew my mind.
    bbordrkcrawf
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    rkcrawf said:
    Did Tyrion f up in this episode? I mean, sure he failed to get Miss Sunday back, but is that a mistake on his part? Or some unachievable goal? Where there other options for getting Missandei back from Cersei? 
    There were no other options for Tyrion. People think that the show is saying that Tyrion is suddenly stupid, when in reality Tyrion is just hopelessly trying to prevent a massacre. Because what else are you going to do? Not try? Just tell Dany "Missandei is a goner. No point in negotiating with them. Go ahead and burn them all, dawg." ?
    rkcrawfYoungelpasoDaveyMac
  • rkcrawf said:
    Did Tyrion f up in this episode? I mean, sure he failed to get Miss Sunday back, but is that a mistake on his part? Or some unachievable goal? Where there other options for getting Missandei back from Cersei? 
    In addition to what you said, Tyrion did nothing wrong in my eyes with what happened.  There was no possible chance that Missandei was coming out of this alive.  Tyrion walked up to the gate of Kings Landing to talk to Cersei only to do his best to reason with her regarding giving her child a place in this world.  He knows she will never surrender and he knew that before he walked up to her but he was hoping that bringing up her child might bring some kind of thought to Cersei on what the right thing to do.  She clearly has a reaction when he brings this up so he's not entirely wrong in doing so.  

    Also I feel like Jim and A.Ron missed understanding the part before they showed up at Kings Landing where Dany's forces were around the table discussing what to do after Dany arrived at Dragonstone.  If I'm remembering correctly they even explained there's no way that Cersei will agree to anything at this point but if we at least show up and offer a truce if she backs down that at least will show the people of Kings Landing that they aren't there to kill them or do any harm to them.  It's specifically said that by what they are doing is showing the people of Kings Landing that they are there to unseat Cersei.


    Youngelpaso
  • JaimieT said:
    rkcrawf said:
    Miss Sunday

    You just blew my mind.
    Or Miss Andy. If Cersei had been born a man, she'd be the oldest twin...Ser Sei (or Ser See)?

    One of the things I loved about the books is how some of the Planetos vocab maps to ours. Some are basic, like Joffrey and Jeffrey. Other ones do crack me up.
    JaimieTSanguinePenguinSchlupp
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    This bugs me cause it's not a sundae but it's still pretty good.
    rkcrawfasmallcatCeciliaMBloodyTaco
  • His name is Joffrey not Jeffrey!!!

    Murderbear
  • rkcrawf said:
    Did Tyrion f up in this episode? I mean, sure he failed to get Miss Sunday back, but is that a mistake on his part? Or some unachievable goal? Where there other options for getting Missandei back from Cersei? 
    I like how this parallels the Sansa/Rickon hostage situation with Dany/Missandei. Sansa was able to grasp that Rickon was essentially a goner and that Ramsay would use him to emotionally manipulate their side. Though it may make Sansa seem cold, I don’t think anyone would say that she was unmoved by the prospect of Rickon’s death. She was just able to keep the bigger picture in mind more than Dany seems to be able to. 

    Of course Rickon had more of a chance of survival if he didn’t run straight than Missandei (aka Miss Sundae) did un her situation. 

    I really hope sansa comes out of this ok. But all bets are off at this point. 
    rkcrawf
  • But seriously 
    Do you know how hype trains work? You have to shovel at least a little bit of coal in there to keep things going!

    The prophecy of The Drop That Was Promised being forgotten about is just another example of a thing these guys don't want to do or even cover this show anymore and just want it to be over.
    I know The Double JW's @Jim and @A_Ron_Hubbard didn't sign up for covering fan fiction but I don't think we can let them off the hook so easily. 
    #SubvertingExpectations #BMFanBankruptcy
    It's clear they want to be done and can you blame them, they got screwed by Grrm, every choice they make is bitched about. If I were them I would have stepped away in season 5
  • AnominalAnominal San Francisco Bay Area
    edited May 8
    (edit: missed the part where the post was about Jim and A Ron, not D&D, but it's an analogy I thought of on my commute, so I'm going to leave it.)

    Here's one more analogy why I can blame them [D&D]. If you're a manager and someone calls in sick at the last minute and you try calling in someone to come in for overtime and no one is taking it. Well, things are hectic and stressful, and not ideal and you do the best you can and no one can blame you.

    If you're a manager and someone gives you their two weeks notice and you decide to never hire anyone? The rest of your employees should be understanding the first couple weeks of low staffing, some might even enjoy the overtime, but as months and years go by and the work only gets harder, the employees have every right to be angry. 

    If D&D wanted to try a season to see how hard it would be on their own. Sure. That seems reasonable. It doesn't come out as well as they hoped and isn't as well received as they would like, but they think they learned lessons and want to try another? That makes some sense. But by this final season? They had plenty of time to see the problems and hire an additional writer or two to help them where they are weak.

    Martin isn't a writing savant. There are others out there that could take the ball and keep it rolling without hitting as many speed bumps as they have. That's on them.

    I don't lay 100% of the blame on them. But I would feel pretty pissed if it ever came out that they felt that none of it was their fault. That they had so little sense of responsibility on their part when we are multiple seasons past the book content. 
    CapeGabe
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    Falcon said:
    But seriously 
    Do you know how hype trains work? You have to shovel at least a little bit of coal in there to keep things going!

    The prophecy of The Drop That Was Promised being forgotten about is just another example of a thing these guys don't want to do or even cover this show anymore and just want it to be over.
    I know The Double JW's @Jim and @A_Ron_Hubbard didn't sign up for covering fan fiction but I don't think we can let them off the hook so easily. 
    #SubvertingExpectations #BMFanBankruptcy
    It's clear they want to be done and can you blame them, they got screwed by Grrm, every choice they make is bitched about. If I were them I would have stepped away in season 5
    Just to be clear, I am 100% joking. Yes, I am actually curious why they aren't playing the Cleganebowl drop because it's hilarious but this is not serious at all. I am mocking all the outrage being thrown at the Double D's.
    JaimieTawookieeSanguinePenguinYoungelpaso
  • chriskchrisk Indianapolis
    Anominal said:
    (edit: missed the part where the post was about Jim and A Ron, not D&D, but it's an analogy I thought of on my commute, so I'm going to leave it.)

    Here's one more analogy why I can blame them [D&D]. If you're a manager and someone calls in sick at the last minute and you try calling in someone to come in for overtime and no one is taking it. Well, things are hectic and stressful, and not ideal and you do the best you can and no one can blame you.

    If you're a manager and someone gives you their two weeks notice and you decide to never hire anyone? The rest of your employees should be understanding the first couple weeks of low staffing, some might even enjoy the overtime, but as months and years go by and the work only gets harder, the employees have every right to be angry. 

    If D&D wanted to try a season to see how hard it would be on their own. Sure. That seems reasonable. It doesn't come out as well as they hoped and isn't as well received as they would like, but they think they learned lessons and want to try another? That makes some sense. But by this final season? They had plenty of time to see the problems and hire an additional writer or two to help them where they are weak.

    Martin isn't a writing savant. There are others out there that could take the ball and keep it rolling without hitting as many speed bumps as they have. That's on them.

    I don't lay 100% of the blame on them. But I would feel pretty pissed if it ever came out that they felt that none of it was their fault. That they had so little sense of responsibility on their part when we are multiple seasons past the book content. 
    I imagine those guys have been in a relative cocoon the past 10 years during writing, production, and post-production and short of low ratings there's not a lot of reason for anyone to confront them about much of anything. Most people not online who haven't read the books are probably satisfied, HBO is satisfied, and I'm certain they don't even recognize a lot of these problems until after the fact. If at all. They see solutions they and their people have come up with to the problems at hand and they go execute them. 

    I think if it were a movie and there wasn't a next episode to move on on to and they could test, reshoot or do pickup shots it'd be different, but they probably just don't have the time. The schedule is tight from what I've read over the years. I'm surprised they've been cranking them out as fast as they have. It would probably make sense to slow down but that's a bigger commitment for everyone involved.
    YoungelpasoFalcon
  • AnominalAnominal San Francisco Bay Area
    That sounds like AMC not HBO. 
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    It's been wondered for a long time if the series is going to end as if it's a book being written by Sam. It would make sense in the universe but I hope they don't do it because it's corny AF.

    BUT

    What if at the end, we see old Sam with a white beard, goofy hat, maybe even a turtle pin on him somewhere closing a book, leaning back, joining his fingers while laying his arms at the top of his belly looking very self-satisfied. Old Gilly says, "Are you finally done, Sam?"
    And he says,"Oh ho no, this is only book 1! I've got a lot more writing to do!"
    rkcrawfSanguinePenguinBroRad33
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    I'm in it for the Funko pops


    Murderbeargjames80
  • chrisk said:

    I imagine those guys have been in a relative cocoon the past 10 years during writing, production, and post-production and short of low ratings there's not a lot of reason for anyone to confront them about much of anything. Most people not online who haven't read the books are probably satisfied, HBO is satisfied, and I'm certain they don't even recognize a lot of these problems until after the fact. If at all. They see solutions they and their people have come up with to the problems at hand and they go execute them. 

    I think if it were a movie and there wasn't a next episode to move on on to and they could test, reshoot or do pickup shots it'd be different, but they probably just don't have the time. The schedule is tight from what I've read over the years. I'm surprised they've been cranking them out as fast as they have. It would probably make sense to slow down but that's a bigger commitment for everyone involved.
    I think you hit the nail on the head with that comment.  Look at these forums for example, only a very small percentage of the people on the forums are down on this season and being very vocal about it.  It's not like the double D's cruise all the different forums regarding their series trying to gain insight on what people like and don't like.  The very short amount of time they aren't working on the show they probably are doing anything and everything to stay away from it because that's all they've been living the last 8 years.  Obviously they are going to expect criticism but I don't think they have the time to actively go out and look for it during the small amount of spare time that they have. 
    BenMarci
  • rkcrawf said:
    Did Tyrion f up in this episode? I mean, sure he failed to get Miss Sunday back, but is that a mistake on his part? Or some unachievable goal? Where there other options for getting Missandei back from Cersei? 
    Yes. He couldn't save Missandei, but he shouldn't have created a situation where she gets beheaded in front of an already furious Dany. Not to mention bringing his queen directly in front of and below a mass of ballistas.

    I think that everyone saw how Jon, the dumbest character, got so much admiration. Now they're trying to outdo each other for dumbness. Definitely no connection there to modern American politics. :)
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    rkcrawf said:
    Did Tyrion f up in this episode? I mean, sure he failed to get Miss Sunday back, but is that a mistake on his part? Or some unachievable goal? Where there other options for getting Missandei back from Cersei? 
    Yes. He couldn't save Missandei, but he shouldn't have created a situation where she gets beheaded in front of an already furious Dany. Not to mention bringing his queen directly in front of and below a mass of ballistas.

    I think that everyone saw how Jon, the dumbest character, got so much admiration. Now they're trying to outdo each other for dumbness. Definitely no connection there to modern American politics. :)
    You actually believe that Dany being there was his decision?
  • FlukesFlukes Calgary, Canada
    The "Someone has been talking" thread got me thinking and I think it bears discussion here in the episode thread:

    J&A seem pretty convinced that we're intentionally left out of a conversation between Sansa, Arya, and possibly Bran before Arya heads off to KL. I think it's a plan to undermine Dany and assassinate Cersei.

    We know that Sansa shared Jon's parentage with Tyrion and most viewers see that as a betrayal of Jon. What if her real goal is to destabilize Dany? I believe that Sansa knew Tyrion would share the information with Varys and she may have hoped to foment treason among her advisors: it nearly worked.

    IIRC (I only watched once and White Walker Kush is a hell of a drug) The "plan" involves separating their forces, with mostly southern and Essos contingents going with Dany by boat and dragon to Dragonstone while Jon heads out over land to meet them at KL. 

    What if Sansa put two plans into motion to get rid of Dany:
    - Try to spark treason in her advisors so they will elevate Jon
    - Try to get Dany killed by leaking her travel plans to Cersei by raven - setting up the ambush.

    A lot of people in this thread were confused why Sansa seemed almost happy about the news of the ambush and wondered why Sansa would prefer Cersei to win.  I suspect she's trying to use Cersei to take out Dany (ideally before Jon rejoins her army) and she expects Arya to assassinate Cersei - leaving only Jon with a claim to the throne. 

    I know that Jon "doesn't want it", but we also know that he will step up and do his duty in the absence of other choices.

    Looking back at the past few episodes, I think Sansa's interactions with Dany are trying to lay the groundwork for this betrayal. This is my new favourite theory. Sansa doesn't have to be in control of everything that happens, but she's doing what she can to create a chaos ladder for her family to climb.
    majjam0770Dee
  • rkcrawf said:
    Did Tyrion f up in this episode? I mean, sure he failed to get Miss Sunday back, but is that a mistake on his part? Or some unachievable goal? Where there other options for getting Missandei back from Cersei? 
    Yes. He couldn't save Missandei, but he shouldn't have created a situation where she gets beheaded in front of an already furious Dany. Not to mention bringing his queen directly in front of and below a mass of ballistas.

    I think that everyone saw how Jon, the dumbest character, got so much admiration. Now they're trying to outdo each other for dumbness. Definitely no connection there to modern American politics. :)
    You actually believe that Dany being there was his decision?
    I don't know what you mean. We literally saw him convince Dany to try negotiating with Cersei again. If the only way to do that was to give Cesei maximum leverage and a prime opportunity to manipulate Dany, he shouldn't have done that.
  • AnominalAnominal San Francisco Bay Area
    edited May 9
    People have a very different impression of Sansa's reaction than me. Or a different conclusion. I saw her have schadenfreude at hearing the news. Like she was thinking. "I knew she was an idiot. I tried warning them and no one was listening. I crossed my fingers and hoped she'd win but I was right! She's a terrible leader, she deserves what she gets, but now Cersei is going to win. I'm going home (turning around and walking away from the screen) to try to think how to salvage this mess that I warned everyone was coming."
    JaimieTCeciliaMBloodyTaco
  • Anominal said:
    People have a very different impression of Sansa's reaction than me. Or a different conclusion. I saw her have schadenfrude at hearing the news. Like she was thinking. "I knew she was an idiot. I tried warning them and no one was listening. I crossed my fingers and hoped she'd win but I was right! She's a terrible leader, she deserves what she gets, but now Cersei is going to win. I'm going home (turning around and walking away from the screen) to try to think how to salvage this mess that I warned everyone was coming."
    This is more along the way I took that scene. I'll have to watch this part again to confirm my thoughts but I absolutely did not take that scene as Sansa being happy in any way about what happened. 

    Flukes said:
    The "Someone has been talking" thread got me thinking and I think it bears discussion here in the episode thread:

    J&A seem pretty convinced that we're intentionally left out of a conversation between Sansa, Arya, and possibly Bran before Arya heads off to KL. I think it's a plan to undermine Dany and assassinate Cersei.

    We know that Sansa shared Jon's parentage with Tyrion and most viewers see that as a betrayal of Jon. What if her real goal is to destabilize Dany? I believe that Sansa knew Tyrion would share the information with Varys and she may have hoped to foment treason among her advisors: it nearly worked.

    IIRC (I only watched once and White Walker Kush is a hell of a drug) The "plan" involves separating their forces, with mostly southern and Essos contingents going with Dany by boat and dragon to Dragonstone while Jon heads out over land to meet them at KL. 

    What if Sansa put two plans into motion to get rid of Dany:
    - Try to spark treason in her advisors so they will elevate Jon
    - Try to get Dany killed by leaking her travel plans to Cersei by raven - setting up the ambush.

    A lot of people in this thread were confused why Sansa seemed almost happy about the news of the ambush and wondered why Sansa would prefer Cersei to win.  I suspect she's trying to use Cersei to take out Dany (ideally before Jon rejoins her army) and she expects Arya to assassinate Cersei - leaving only Jon with a claim to the throne. 

    I know that Jon "doesn't want it", but we also know that he will step up and do his duty in the absence of other choices.

    Looking back at the past few episodes, I think Sansa's interactions with Dany are trying to lay the groundwork for this betrayal. This is my new favourite theory. Sansa doesn't have to be in control of everything that happens, but she's doing what she can to create a chaos ladder for her family to climb.
    We all know the Starks had a family chat session when Bran told Arya and Sansa about Jon's true parentage. I'm not certain that's it's hinted that Arya and Sansa got together again after that but I do understand that is possible. I find it highly unlikely that Sansa would send a Raven to Cersei because as much as she doesn't want Dany as a ruler, she sure as hell doesn't want to help Cersei in any way. There might be a betrayal between Sansa and Dany but I don't think it's going to come from sending a Raven to the enemy with insider knowledge. It's quite obvious that the Stark family chat cut away before it really got going to keep their cards hidden as to what is to come in the final episodes and not lay out everybody's ideas and motivations. That's part of the way they create tension and it works wonderfully.
  • Sansa is literally wearing BDSM clothes at this point, I think it's clear that she's turned evil.
    CapeGabe
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    edited May 8
    @Flukes
    I 100% think that the writers want us understand that Sansa told Tyrion in hopes of installing Jon as the new ruler, at least that is how I took it. I don't know about the part where she wants Cersei to defeat Dany, since the north doesn't have enough troops on their own to defeat Cersei. 

    The part about putting Jon in power would be good for Sansa and obviously the North. People assume it's because Sansa thinks Jon is an idiot she can manipulate, but it's really as simple as Sansa wanting House Stark to wield power and have autonomy while rebuilding and restructuring the Seven Kingdoms after the war. Sansa is still his sister at heart and his 1st cousin by blood, and he has the blood and love for the Starks in his veins. It would assure that the North would be a sovereign Kingdom and Sansa would be it's ruler, since I can't see Jon saying no to the North wanting it's freedom.

    And yeah, Sansa also knows that Jon has no political ambitions or desire to feel empowered by his position, so it would be advantageous to her for him to be in power, as she could use their sibling bond and his lack of personal ambition to her and her families advantage. I don't think that she believes she can simply manipulate Jon since she hasn't been able to so far (she complains specifically about Jon not listening to her).

    That all being said, I don't think it will work out that way, even if Sansa probably is in a better position of power at the end of the series. I think Dany will die while defeating Cersei, and Jon will be too traumatized by it all and fuckoff to the "real" north with his buddies and his one-eared good boi. Who fills in that power vacuum in Kings Landing?
    Sansa seems like a stretch, as her ambitions seem to be making the North it's own kingdom with it's own ruler (her if Jon rules in KL), and she doesn't really have any claim unless Jon specifically names her the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms before he bounces or dies. Although they are telling us in all of the dialogue that the person who the people want to be King/Queen is important and they haven't shown where anyone would want a random Stark girl to be ruler over the Seven Kingdoms. Unless, of course, Jon bounces or dies and Sansa creates a marriage alliance between her and Tyrion. I could see them selling the idea that the eldest surviving Stark and Lannister marrying and ruling together would be favorable to the people. This is all depending on a lot, including Tyrion not losing his head for treason.
    Flukes
  • Lyanna Mormont and Yara Greyjoy were/are ladies, so I don't understand Arya's "I'm not like other girls" sulking to Gendry.
    CapeGabeken hale
  • Lyanna Mormont and Yara Greyjoy were/are ladies, so I don't understand Arya's "I'm not like other girls" sulking to Gendry.
    Maybe she wasn't that impressed with his war hammer............ or how he swung it?
    awookieeMurderbear
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    edited May 8
    Lyanna Mormont and Yara Greyjoy were/are ladies, so I don't understand Arya's "I'm not like other girls" sulking to Gendry.
    They seem to like to simplify peoples thoughts for the viewers sake. Most people thinking about it understand that she can be a "Lady" while also still occasionally adventuring and fighting in tournaments. That said, Lyanna and Yara were Ladies of their Houses during times of war, and Yara specifically comes from people who are perpetually at war and constantly adventuring. When it's not a time of war, I'm guessing that Lyanna isn't going on the road for adventures and tournaments. She is sitting in the great hall having to be the Lady of the House. And when she was old enough, she would have been expected to marry.

    Arya would be expected to have and raise children, at minimum 1 or two so that they can further their line. She would be expected to hold court, dress nice, plan dinners, etc. It would probably be difficult to meet those expectations while also going off on adventures and fighting in tournaments. And she probably realizes that living how she wants to live her life wouldn't be fair to Gendry, even if he is a progressive dude who doesn't want his Lady to a typical baby factory, since he would be expected to do all of those things as well. Even the most progressive way of them doing things wouldn't be conducive to the way she wants to live.

    Then again, unless war continues on past the series, Arya is going to get bored quickly. Even the realms greatest adventurers during peaceful times, Dunk and Egg, settled down once they got to a certain point. I'm not sure if she plans on living past the war, but it would be interesting what she expects life to be like once everything settles down across the land. She could be a King/Queen's guard, but how much more interesting is that, especially during times of peace? That seems like you have less freedom than you would marrying a Lord. 

    SanguinePenguin
  • Sansa is literally wearing BDSM clothes at this point, I think it's clear that she's turned evil.
    No way! (and some may be offended at the correlation?)
    The only halfway "evil" move she ever pulled was not telling Jon about the Knights of the Vale coming to the Battle of the Bastards.  That still makes no fucking sense, but she's never been evil and it would be really disappointing if they went that way at the last minute.
    SanguinePenguin
  • Hatorian said:


    Thank you for posting that.  I thought I was losing my mind (or actually nitpicking, as people are so quick [and wrong] to proclaim) when I got so confused by that scene.  I really thought they were pulling up to Quarth or something and I was surprised more reviews didn't mention the weird inconsistency there.
    Hatorian
  • When did they mention a new prince of Dorne??
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