804 - The Last of the Starks

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  • I just watched a part where Tormund says “What kind of man climbs on top of a dragon a ‘mad man’ or a king??!!... guess Dany is the madman..
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    ken hale said:
    Hatorian said:


    Thank you for posting that.  I thought I was losing my mind (or actually nitpicking, as people are so quick [and wrong] to proclaim) when I got so confused by that scene.  I really thought they were pulling up to Quarth or something and I was surprised more reviews didn't mention the weird inconsistency there.

    To be somewhat fair, the first pic is from season 1 and a lot more than that has changed than that since then. Hell, Tyrions hair magically turned brown.
    Plus, I can't imagine staging a land battle scene outside of the walls of a city where it butts up against a mountainous forest. 

    This was outside of KL from season 7:







    And this is how they depicted the area between Highgarden and Kings Landing (closer to Kings Landing):


    ken haleFlukes
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    When did they mention a new prince of Dorne??
    It was in the war planning scene. It's a super quick mention because unfortunately for our heroes it probably won't mean much at all.
  • chriskchrisk Indianapolis
    edited May 9
    To be fair, the Prince of Dorne’s rule extends only to the four corners of a courtyard. Also some dunes. Not worth spending much time on. 
    All the ChickensFlukesSanguinePenguin
  • That's a really good point, thanks for sharing the screenshots; I hadn't realized the depiction of that area had changed over time!
  • HatorianHatorian Dagobah
    ken hale said:
    Hatorian said:


    Thank you for posting that.  I thought I was losing my mind (or actually nitpicking, as people are so quick [and wrong] to proclaim) when I got so confused by that scene.  I really thought they were pulling up to Quarth or something and I was surprised more reviews didn't mention the weird inconsistency there.

    To be somewhat fair, the first pic is from season 1 and a lot more than that has changed than that since then. Hell, Tyrions hair magically turned brown.
    Plus, I can't imagine staging a land battle scene outside of the walls of a city where it butts up against a mountainous forest. 

    This was outside of KL from season 7:







    And this is how they depicted the area between Highgarden and Kings Landing (closer to Kings Landing):


    But those screenshots are all from later Seasons. So I think the same argument remains. After they passed the books and got into Seasons 6+ they just decided to say fuck it and they changed the landscape to fit the requirements of the on screen story.

    showing scenes in season 7 doesn’t make it acceptable that the entire landscape has changed IMO. 
    BloodyTaco
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    edited May 9
    Hatorian said:
    ken hale said:
    Hatorian said:


    Thank you for posting that.  I thought I was losing my mind (or actually nitpicking, as people are so quick [and wrong] to proclaim) when I got so confused by that scene.  I really thought they were pulling up to Quarth or something and I was surprised more reviews didn't mention the weird inconsistency there.

    To be somewhat fair, the first pic is from season 1 and a lot more than that has changed than that since then. Hell, Tyrions hair magically turned brown.
    Plus, I can't imagine staging a land battle scene outside of the walls of a city where it butts up against a mountainous forest. 

    This was outside of KL from season 7:







    And this is how they depicted the area between Highgarden and Kings Landing (closer to Kings Landing):


    But those screenshots are all from later Seasons. So I think the same argument remains. After they passed the books and got into Seasons 6+ they just decided to say fuck it and they changed the landscape to fit the requirements of the on screen story.

    showing scenes in season 7 doesn’t make it acceptable that the entire landscape has changed IMO. 
    I'm not saying if it's acceptable or not. Mileage varies. I'm just pointing out that there are hundreds of changes that they made from early season 1 and early seasons to fit the story better. And they made these changes in earlier seasons too.

    There arent really any other images that they've shown of King Landings inland side since that season 1 shot, until they had to show it in season 7 to prepare for a land-based siege/battle. I imagine if they had to show the inland side of KL in season 2 for a battle or army gathering, they would have made the change then.

    It was a mistake to have ever depicted KL like that in season 1, just like it was a mistake to give Peter Dinklage blonde hair in season 1. I honestly dont think that they were too concerned with a potential season 6 at that point.
    ken haleHatorianFlukesSanguinePenguinchrisk
  • Lyanna Mormont and Yara Greyjoy were/are ladies, so I don't understand Arya's "I'm not like other girls" sulking to Gendry.
    Lyanna Mormont was a young teenager; we have no idea how she would have been as an adult lady of the house. Yara Greyjoy is the leader of a warlike people who live on a giant rock island and no one is stopping by for tea.

    Anyway, I just think the Arya/Gendry scene was much simpler. She wanted a one-night-stand before a battle they fully expected to lose, and I thought she was pretty clear about it. He apparently wanted more from her than she wanted to give. She may end up partnered or married with someone at some point but she's only (?18+?) right now and she has other shit to do, and even if she does partner up, she's barely the "living indoors" type much less the "lady of the house" type. 
  • About Sansa- I do see Sansa as quite intelligent and savvy, especially for someone so young. She's certainly the most politically savvy of the Stark children, although I realize that is not saying a lot. I mean look at what happened with Littlefinger. She trusted him, he betrayed her by selling her to the  monster Ramsey Bolton, she convinced LF that she trusted him again when she really did not, she got him to swoop in and defeat Ramsey Bolton, held him close for a while, and then eventually she fucking EXECUTED HIS ASS when she realized he was trying to betray her again. If that's not a perfectly executed power play, I don't know what is. 

    I don't think Sansa is turning evil at all. I think she knows "in the Game of Thrones, you win or you die." She did learn and observe Cersei when she was at court in King's Landing. But I think she's much more of a realist than Cersei and a lot less interested in power for power's sake. The scene where they are in the crypts during the battle can be compared with the scene where Cersei was holed up with the women in an earlier season (was it battle of Blackwater?). Cersei was getting drunk and kind of making bitchy remarks and eyeing up and down all the other ladies in the room. Sansa, in her scene, was just sober (both literally and figuratively) and realistic about things, giving a little sass to Tyrion but overall just being kind of a mixture of sad and regal. 

     And I think with the Dany stuff it's just as simple as Sansa doesn't have any reason to trust Dany- they just met, she hasn't seen her do much and she can tell Jon is enamored by her, as are most of Dany's advisors, so Sansa fears they are all just thinking with their dicks. Sansa is a young woman roughly Dany's age and getting used to the feeling of her own power, she's not going to be swayed by the blond braids, the charm that Dany turns on and off, or the dragons; she wants results before she's going to trust anyone. When she starts to see Daenerys make rash decisions based on her anger, need for power or whatever, and she sees a better way forward with Jon as the leader, she makes a political decision to tell Tyrion knowing that it will spread further and destabilize Dany's claim to the throne which Sansa sees no evidence of her warranting.

    I'm a big Sansa fan, and I am hoping this whole thing ends with her in a powerful position of some sort. I think she's one of the real winners of this story. She's emerged as both a rational and powerful female character on this show that is so sorely lacking in that area. I don't really see how she could end up on the Iron Throne, but that would be the perfect ending for me.
    Deemajjam0770SanguinePenguinrkcrawfawookiee
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    edited May 9
    CeciliaM said:
    About Sansa- I do see Sansa as quite intelligent and savvy, especially for someone so young. She's certainly the most politically savvy of the Stark children, although I realize that is not saying a lot. I mean look at what happened with Littlefinger. She trusted him, he betrayed her by selling her to the  monster Ramsey Bolton, she convinced LF that she trusted him again when she really did not, she got him to swoop in and defeat Ramsey Bolton, held him close for a while, and then eventually she fucking EXECUTED HIS ASS when she realized he was trying to betray her again. If that's not a perfectly executed power play, I don't know what is. 

    Eh, the Littlefinger stuff... He willingly offered his military help with the Boltons before she ever said a word to him. She didnt really have to do anything or manipulate him.
    And when she executed Littlefinger, they confirmed that Sansa was buying what he was selling about Arya being a threat to her. She went to Bran off-screen (in a deleted scene) and learned about Littlefingers betrayals and what he was doing. It's actually kind of lame that a magic tree wizard is what did Littlefinger in rather  than someone actually being smarter or more cunning than him.

    I do think Sansa is smart and we're definitely meant to view her as the most politically savvy Stark.  And I think Sansa ends up in a very good power position at the end. I just think we give her too much credit for declining help from someone and then sending that same person a raven for their help at the last minute when their need was dire, or having a magic brother that can read her the entire Littlefinger wiki page before she has her sister arrested.
  • CeciliaM said:
    About Sansa- I do see Sansa as quite intelligent and savvy, especially for someone so young. She's certainly the most politically savvy of the Stark children, although I realize that is not saying a lot. I mean look at what happened with Littlefinger. She trusted him, he betrayed her by selling her to the  monster Ramsey Bolton, she convinced LF that she trusted him again when she really did not, she got him to swoop in and defeat Ramsey Bolton, held him close for a while, and then eventually she fucking EXECUTED HIS ASS when she realized he was trying to betray her again. If that's not a perfectly executed power play, I don't know what is. 

    Eh, the Littlefinger stuff... He willingly offered his military help with the Boltons before she ever said a word to him. She didnt really have to do anything or manipulate him.
    And when she executed Littlefinger, they confirmed that Sansa was buying what he was selling about Arya being a threat to her. She went to Bran off-screen (in a deleted scene) and learned about Littlefingers betrayals and what he was doing. It's actually kind of lame that a magic tree wizard is what did Littlefinger in rather  than someone actually being smarter or more cunning than him.

    I do think Sansa is smart and we're definitely meant to view her as the most politically savvy Stark.  And I think Sansa ends up in a very good power position at the end. I just think we give her too much credit for declining help from someone and then sending that same person a raven for their help at the last minute when their need was dire, or having a magic brother that can read her the entire Littlefinger wiki page before she has her sister arrested.
    Right. I can see where my comment left that out, but I was thinking about that. But she also had the power to go ahead and execute him when the time came. She could see that he hadn't changed and that he was going to continue to try to weaken her family to his own ends.
  • CeciliaM said:

    I'm a big Sansa fan, and I am hoping this whole thing ends with her in a powerful position of some sort. I think she's one of the real winners of this story. She's emerged as both a rational and powerful female character on this show that is so sorely lacking in that area. I don't really see how she could end up on the Iron Throne, but that would be the perfect ending for me.
    I'm a big Sansa fan as well.  I love where they went with her character.  It's amazing looking back at season 1 and 2 and I absolutely hated her, I think everyone did.  Lots of characters have had very big story arcs and have changed since the beginning of this show, but I think there are none bigger than Sansa.  Arya has always been a tomboy and we knew she'd never end up ladylike in the sense of the Game of Thrones world, Jon has always known nothing and still knows nothing (just kidding...kind of), Bran is...well the three eyed raven and isn't really Bran anymore so in a way he's changed the most but I don't count him.  I'm extremely happy with where the story is now and where it's seemingly going and I hope it ends with whoever on the throne and Sansa as wardeness/Queen/whatever title of the North.
    FlukesSanguinePenguinthepastryarchy
  • Has Sansa gotten smarter/more savvy in a greater proportion than Tyrion has gotten dumber/more naive?

    Her line to Tyrion "I used to think you were the smartest person I knew" was not just a good put down, but it was revealing of how their trajectories are in total opposite directions.

    Tyrion also said early on that "Sansa may outlive us all." and I fully expect her to.
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    Thank god a major publication finally posted this. The show framing this Jon/Dany succession as being based on Jon being a man is flat out wrong, both in the real world monarchy and in the books/show. I'm not saying that it wouldn't give him more support in this immensely patriarchal society (although they currently have a queen as the ruler and another queen as the main contender to dethrone her - both being served by tens of thousands of men killing each other in their Queens name). It obviously would, but it is absolutely dumbfounding to ignore the succession laws that even the show has adhered to through 7 seasons and hang Jon's claim on his gender. 

    http://time.com/5585405/game-of-thrones-jon-snow-succession/
    Anominaltelephoneofmadness
  • Natter CastNatter Cast San Francisco, CA
    Euron Greyjoy is the Putz who was Promised.
    SanguinePenguin
  • Thank god a major publication finally posted this. The show framing this Jon/Dany succession as being based on Jon being a man is flat out wrong, both in the real world monarchy and in the books/show. I'm not saying that it wouldn't give him more support in this immensely patriarchal society (although they currently have a queen as the ruler and another queen as the main contender to dethrone her - both being served by tens of thousands of men killing each other in their Queens name). It obviously would, but it is absolutely dumbfounding to ignore the succession laws that even the show has adhered to through 7 seasons and hang Jon's claim on his gender. 

    http://time.com/5585405/game-of-thrones-jon-snow-succession/
    Varys kinda forgot about the succession rules like Dany kinda forgot about the Iron Fleet.
    All the ChickensSanguinePenguin
  • CoryCory New Scotland
    Travis said:
    I liked the episode a lot and yet these little details just get stuck in the craw. 
    That's how I felt about the last two.

    Does that mean I haven't filed for Fan Bankruptcy yet?
  • Natter CastNatter Cast San Francisco, CA
    There are no more prophecies or signs from the Lord of Light because all future knowledge came from Valen...err...Bran, who doesn't know the future past now.
  • I feel like something which is generally being lost in the discussion about whether Dany or Jon will/should sit the throne is the fact that their side seems woefully outmatched at this point, right?  I mean, what kind of chance is anyone really giving them if it comes to a straight-up battle against Cersei's forces?  As far as I can tell Dany/Jon have zero tactical advantages in attacking King's Landing; by land, air, or sea, they'd be screwed, right?
    telephoneofmadness
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    edited May 11
    ken hale said:
    I feel like something which is generally being lost in the discussion about whether Dany or Jon will/should sit the throne is the fact that their side seems woefully outmatched at this point, right?  I mean, what kind of chance is anyone really giving them if it comes to a straight-up battle against Cersei's forces?  As far as I can tell Dany/Jon have zero tactical advantages in attacking King's Landing; by land, air, or sea, they'd be screwed, right?
    Yea, but you forget about the 20,000 soldiers that the Dsny and Jon had hidden around the backside of Winterfell at he end of the battle, which now makes Cersei's 20,000 soldiers "about even" to theirs.

    Either that or Dany is counting her dragon as being worth tens of thousands of troops, which to be fair, if it weren't for these hilariously unrealistic ballista weapons then that assertion would be more than true. Aegon took all of the Seven Kingdoms combined with 3 dragons and barely any land support forces (and they did have scorpions then, in spite of the assumption that Qyburn cooked that idea up).

    I guess when everyone is acting dumb and are given unrealistic weapons and troops that should be dead, it all evens out.
    ken hale
  • edited May 11
    ken hale said:
    I feel like something which is generally being lost in the discussion about whether Dany or Jon will/should sit the throne is the fact that their side seems woefully outmatched at this point, right?  I mean, what kind of chance is anyone really giving them if it comes to a straight-up battle against Cersei's forces?  As far as I can tell Dany/Jon have zero tactical advantages in attacking King's Landing; by land, air, or sea, they'd be screwed, right?
    Yea, but you forget about the 20,000 soldiers that the Dsny and Jon had hidden around the backside of Winterfell at he end of the battle, which now makes Cersei's 20,000 soldiers "about even" to theirs.

    Either that or Dany is counting her dragon as being worth tens of thousands of troops, which to be fair, if it weren't for these hilariously unrealistic ballista weapons then that assertion would be more than true. Aegon took all of the Seven Kingdoms combined with 3 dragons and barely any land support forces (and they did have scorpions then, in spite of the assumption that Qyburn cooked that idea up).

    I guess when everyone is acting dumb and are given unrealistic weapons and troops that should be dead, it all evens out.
    I responded to this then realized we're in the wrong forum discussion to talk about next week on... @All the Chickens please see the "next week on" discussion forum for my reply. I also deleted out your part of the post in my comment regarding the next week on stuff. If you see this before a moderator I'd recommend editing your post. It's easy to forget what discussion thread your in.
  • This was probably in my top 3 fav episodes 
    rkcrawfawookieeken hale
  • HatorianHatorian Dagobah
    This whole movement of the double Ds don’t care and the last Seasons have been shit because they don’t care is garbage. 

    I think if every single person looked inside themselves and put them in the same situation of the DDs they would probably have the same outcome. Meaning they would struggle to find satisfying outcomes for all the fans. Some fans want a happy ending. Some fans want the shitty ending. 

    They adapted amazing books and had some of the best TV ever. Then after the books ran out they had to rely on writers and their own direction. So they have made a decision on where they want to go. HBO obviously has signed off on it. If they were not happy and thought the DDs were sabotaging or ruining the series they would have stepped in. But they didn’t. It wouldn’t be hard for HBO to put other people in charge if they weren’t happy with the scripts. They had plenty of time. 

    Ultimately theres a ton of shit we can complain about. But the DDs are professionals. I’m confident they put on screen the best they could. Whether it satisfies fans and viewers is not the point. They have their entire careers to worry about. They are not doing anything but trying to put the best possible media on screen they can.

    if it doesn’t live up to expectations then that’s fine. We all hyped this up. We all expected the greatest TV season ever. We all wanted our prophecies and theories to be fulfilled. 

    Lastly, this isn’t a blanket defense of the DDs or the GOT team. There are legit complaints about the last season. Characters who should have died, jetpacking, etc. But it’s fantasy. If we wanted to implement real world beliefs into this then their wouldn’t be a story to tell. So there needs to be some suspension of disbelief. I mean 40 US general died during WW2 but you never hear their story because they died. You hear the stories of the people who survived and there is a reason for that. 
    gguenotrkcrawfAll the ChickensawookieeMurderbearAww_PHuuCkSanguinePenguin
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    Jetpacking is such a weird complaint. I wonder if anyone complained when in the pilot episode of the series, the Baratheons and Lannisters were in Kings Landing and then suddenly arriving in Winterfell a couple of scenes later. Why? Because nothing of import happened during their travels that would serve the characters or plot.

    The show has ALWAYS not shown characters on the road or had them take a long time to show up at far away distances unless their travels were actually a part of the story (such as Tyrion travelling with Jon, or Tyrion travelling with Bronn, or Tyrion travelling with Catelyn).

    It so happens that now our characters are all together and their travels between locations don't matter to the plot or character building. What are th ey supposed to do? Have 30 minutes of scenes of Jon and Davos talking for no reason between the time left left Winterfell and arrive in Kings Landing? That would be boring unless there was a point to the travel scenes.

    Can people not just imagine that a few weeks have gone by between when a person left and arrived at a far away location? That's what the writers are intending. Scenes arent happening at the same time at each location and they dont show the sun rising and falling 14 times during scenes to indicate teo weeks has gone by. They arent expecting you to literally think that a character travelled across the continent in a day.

    Example: Jaime was likely sleeping with Brienne for a couple of weeks before he left,  although it only showed 1 night or day pass after they slept together. He didnt have sex with her and leave the next night as some seem to believe. They had sex the night of the victory celebration. The next day Dany had a war room meeting to come up with a plan and then flew alongside her ships that sailed to Dragonstone from (probably) White Harbor, which would have taken at least a few days to a week or 2. Then Sansa probably wouldnt have received a raven until a day or two after they arrived at Dragonstone/Kings Landing telling them what happened to Rhaegal, which she told Jaime about and then Jaime left later that night. I didn't need them spelling out the time passage to imagine that.
    DeerkcrawfAww_PHuuCkSanguinePenguin
  • Doctor_NickDoctor_Nick Terminus
    edited May 11
    It basically comes down to people trying to explain why the show is barely within hailing distance of where it was in the first few seasons. This “they’re doing the best they can” sentiment would go over better if it didn’t seem obvious that there were seasons left in the show, and leads one to conclude that D&D want this over with ASAP because they’re compressing things mightily, against the financial interests of the network. 

    It’s the anti- Better Call Saul effect. 
    telephoneofmadnessken haleBloodyTaco
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    edited May 11
    I think that these last 2 seasons were always destined to seem rushed even if they did full 10 episode season and a season 9.

    Once you bring all characters together and you dont really have the need for more character development or world building, there isnt much use in the abundance of transitional scenes that fill out most episodes.

    So it turns into a clipshow of big things happening between talking scenes in extra long episodes.

    I have thought a lot about it, but I don't know how they would make much more content without the episodes seeming being pretty bloated and considered "boring" by at least half the audience that arent going to appreciate scenes and episodes with Jon and Davos chatting by a camp fire on the Kings Road heading down to Kings Landing.
    Then again, I'm not a TV writer. I only play one on the internet.
    awookieeSanguinePenguin
  • Dany being a mad queen is a red herring.  Dany has never done anything wrong.  She's good.   The Lannister's on the other hand are the bad guys.  

    Also, I think Rhegal is alive.  Also, ghost will pop up again.  Think of the episode of putting everyone in position for the end.  
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    Dany being a mad queen is a red herring.  Dany has never done anything wrong.  She's good.   The Lannister's on the other hand are the bad guys. 
    I assume this is sarcasm, right?

    Ignoring everything else, she burned an innocent man alive and fed him to her dragons just in hope to scare a confession from another innocent man who she later proposed marriage to in the same episode.

    All because the Sons of the Harpy killed Ser Barristan Selmy and she was angry. So she grabbed up a couple of dudes that she thought might be involved (they weren't), and killed one of them to scare the shit out of the others, which accomplished nothing.

    No trial. No evidence. Nothing. She burned him alive and made him into dragon poop for nothing.
    Deeken haleSanguinePenguin
  • I feel like Tyrion was jetpacking around the war afterparty, no? 
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