For All the *Grumpy Haters*
I'm listening to the "Instant Take" for S8E5 right now and I can't take it, because Aron and Jim are disappointed that a ton of characters didn't fulfill the character arcs that they were expecting. Which is EXACTLY what Game of Thrones has always been about!!! This goes all the way back to the beginning of the books/shows when characters like Ned/Robb Stark had a clear arc, a clear trajectory and purpose and then got SLAUGHTERED. Jaime was one of the best sworsdmen in Westeros and know he's clanking around with a tin hand. Brann is given the knowledge of all mankind and yet it gives him the power to change nothing! Arya becomes a great assassin, and she can't kill the person most deserving of a good knife to the throat (Cersei) because her own side is busy fire-bombing King's Landing! This entire series of books is about thwarting and upending predictable character arcs. We all wanted to see Jon and Daenerys on the Iron Throne, but the Game of Thrones ending, that does justice to the entire series, is the gut-wrenching, frustrating, red-wedding-esque moment when Dany snaps, burns the city, kills enemies, civilians, and friendlies alike, and drags an entirely new moral dilemma into the mix where suddenly the story is turned upside down, and our heroes are our worst nightmares. I agree that the Double D's have been driving us through this part of the story like an old minivan going off road through the rain forest, and that there are a ton of loose ends. But if this part of the story holds true to GRRM's bullet points, I wouldn't be surprised at all. Once again, the 'hero' that we thought was going to be the good guy, the hero, has a flaw that isn't just overcome with some montages and a character arc; its a flaw that cripples and debilitates their ability to think clearly, to fulfill their goals, and it turns them into the exact evil which they've been fighting against.
All of this is to say that the disappointment that we all feel, the anger at Dany's actions, the disbelief when the northmen began to cut down the surrendered Lannister soldiers, the 100th time that Tyrion's been wrong about something because he's absolutely blinded by the belief that he can salvage the scraps of his family from certain death: these are all exactly what we should be feeling, and what Game of Thrones is all about. Gut punches that are so shocking, you can't help but come back for more.
I'm not gonna defend the half-assed way that all these events unfolded in the medium of film, but the bullet points: I think they're rock solid.
-A fan of episode 5
All of this is to say that the disappointment that we all feel, the anger at Dany's actions, the disbelief when the northmen began to cut down the surrendered Lannister soldiers, the 100th time that Tyrion's been wrong about something because he's absolutely blinded by the belief that he can salvage the scraps of his family from certain death: these are all exactly what we should be feeling, and what Game of Thrones is all about. Gut punches that are so shocking, you can't help but come back for more.
I'm not gonna defend the half-assed way that all these events unfolded in the medium of film, but the bullet points: I think they're rock solid.
-A fan of episode 5
and 13 others.
Comments
But they are entitled to their opinions. People cant help how they feel.
oh wait
There are crucial steps of character developers and plot development that just don't exist. That's why people think it's stuipid.
Actually, there's a second reason too which A. Ron loves to point out. The Double D's CONSTANTLY put characters in situations where one thing should obviously happen, but it doesn't because reasons. For example, Arya gets the shit stabbed out of her by the Waif and then jumps in a dirty river. Some how, she doesn't die. Which makes no sense given what happened. It's not a plot problem that she lives...but WHY THE FUCK did they decide, let's put her in a situation where she should be dead, but doesn't actually die. Same thing happened with Brienne, Grey Worm and Jamie during the battle of winterfell.
So that's why people like me are disappointed. The bullet points are fine, the actual images on screen are amazing, but the rest is totally unearned bullshit.
Robb was young and foolish and ignored the politics of his marriage alliance.
These were their character arcs, not subversions.
I do have faith that if GRRM were to finis the books, and these were the bullet points he was working towards it'd be a fantastic story...but I don't have faith we'll actually get said books lol
last episode Euron killed a dragon in 3 shots and destroyed a bunch of boats without a problem. This episode his whole fleet and all the scorpions in the wall shoot maybe a combined 5-10 bolts? How is that even possible. Most of the scorpions get destroyed without even facing the dragon. That jus makes 0 sense.
Cersei’s whole plan was to use the people as human shields but then the vast majority of her army is in front of the people. Her stated plan was to force Danys hand at being mad but they kill most of the army before even seeing any of the innoncent people. Why did her plan change?
They were on “equal” footing last episode and this episode Dany wins without seeming lose a single soldier? How is that possible.
Watching it was amazing visually but it didn’t feel like a game of thrones episode.
HOWEVER, I think the worst thing D&D&GRRM could do would be to have waivered on this point, so for them to have gone fully in one direction while literally burning down all apologies was to me a breath of fresh air even though I didn’t want the ending we got, we got the ending we needed...IMO of course lol
It could have been handled a LOT better.
Additionally, the instant cast could have been handles a LOT better. Just far too over the top. I think the guys and a lot of fans have feel far too much in love with their theories or ideas to watch objectively.
Maybe they are too close to it now to do that, but I do get tired of listening to SO much hyperbole.
Anyway I'm not going to hate on J&A for being pissed during an insta-cast. They're processing their feelings in real time, and this show has been a huge part of their lives and livelihood for a long time - it's ok to be upset if they don't think it's doing a good job of concluding the series. I don't necessarily agree, but folks should calm down a notch in the forums. I'm looking forward to the full cast once they've had a couple days to process and go through feedback.
If you're looking for some more lighthearted recapping - which I wanted this morning - definitely listen to Boars Gore & Swords - they always have been good at leaning into the absurdity which is nice for this episode. Also Bill Simmons has been recapping the episodes at the end of his Sunday night pods this season, and it's typically amusing in a stupid sort of way - he was very enthusiastic that they finally "unleashed the dragon" lol.
This seems to be the biggest misinterpretation of everyone's motives. I don't think it is people being in love with their theories. It is disappointment with the execution of getting to the bullet points. I don't think many are mad that Dany burnt the city, they are upset with the how and why The Double D's decided to get there.
Cleganebowl was gory fun. Not sure what else they could have done there to lend it more stakes. Maybe a callback to the original conflict between the brothers would have helped...
Arya's choice to leave was surprising, but, again, consistent with the show's pattern of under-cutting its hero figures. I'm sure she'll be critical to the last episode, so we'll have to see where she ends up.
Varys's end was a bit of a flop. I feel like the show never had a good handle on what to do with him. I think a "bottle episode" with Varys really would have helped. Doesn't he still have that sorcerer in his luggage?
They couldn't understand "why" Dany torched the city? Really? They told you twice IN THIS EPISODE the why of it. She wanted love. She wanted Jon's love. She wanted the people's love. Tyrion tells her "they're hostages" and when she surgically took out only Cersei's fighting forces, she expected the people to come out scream "missa missa" or cheer for her. Instead all she hears is "ring the bells ring the bells." She didn't want surrender, she wanted their love, like she got in Astapor and Meereen. Just like Jon, "am I just a queen to you?" What about love? Without love, she will bring terror and fear. So she said fuck it and burn them all, just like dear old dad.
A.Ron goes on to trash Arya. who was the viewer's eyes to see the horror on the ground, to see the effect this kind of warfare has on the common people. Who else could we see this perspective through? Sandor gave her a chance to reclaim her humanity, which was a fantastic and poignant moment in both of their character arcs.
This wasn't an F- episode, but a solid B+ or A- and executed brilliantly. The Bald Move guys were so up their own ass with their pet theories they were pre-disposed to hating this, and they did. I thought declaring "fan bankruptcy" meant enjoying the story the Double D's were telling and not letting your fan theories get in the way. Well, the D's have all along foreshadowed the Mad queen and they delivered. A.Ron especially seemed mad the the Valonqar prophecy was "nothing" well guess what it was never part of the show to begin with, as it was only a book thing.
I could go on and on, but their podcast was so off base and petty it pissed me off.
I didn't listen to the Instant Talk so I don't know their arguments. Not sure if I'd call it the worst episode ever since the direction and technical aspects were remarkable, but this entire final season is easily the most disappointing season of television I've seen. And everything was set up so perfectly after 802. It's at the point where we'll be telling people new to GoT to stop after 802 and pretend the Night King came in darkness and won just like people tell new Star Wars fans to watch 4,5,6 then stop.
She sat atop Drogon after surgical strikes on only military targets and expected the citizens to pour out of their homes and cheer their hero, who had vanquished Cersei and her evil oppressors. Asked "why don't the people rise up against Cersei" and Tyrion tells her the people would if they only could, "but they are hostages." So she freed them and they did not give her love or adoration. That was the final betrayal. She had been betrayed by everyone. Her advisors. Even her lover. When finally the people, who from her eyes, she had just freed like she had the slaves of Astapor and Meereen, did not sing her praises, then dracarys them all to hell and back. In my mind it was a perfect culmination of her journey from savior angel to angel of death.
In my mind, Dany's decision to torch the city is where the producers f'd up. It is there in earlier scenes. She wants love from Jon, even though she's always treated him as a subject first. She wants to rule by love, even though she's holding a dragon over Westeros' head. There's no situation where her advisors should have told her ruling by force would inspire love. In retrospect, it seems silly that she didn't realize it beforehand. I felt like she did in the throne room scene, and she had her fingers crossed when she promised Tyrion that she'd respect the Bells.
My take is that once the battle started, Dany realized that rule by fear is the only thing that makes sense once you've unleashed a dragon. Burning these innocents would prevent resistance in the rest of Westeros (the Hiroshima/Nagasaki argument). I don't agree with that, but I would have bought that as Dany's motivation if they had set it up properly.