After my first watch, my biggest issue was Jamie’s character truly going back to Cerci. But after sleeping on it I really don’t think it was an awful episode, certainly not as bad as “the crew” (formerly “the guys”) seemed to be piling on.
In my eyes this is what set Dany off and tracks (a lot of people have given these reasons, so I’ll start with what I think is a unique one):
-Dany could have done this attack from the moment she came to Westeros and she’s realizing that. If she had listened to the queen of thorns she would have secured the same victory, easier, with 3 dragons intact, and the bells would have rang and she would have been a savior vs a monster. But she listened to her advisors who either died at the hands of her enemies, betrayed her, or gave her bad intel. So as the bells are ringing you can see the rage building that she won this easily, she has no support from the realm, her love snubbed her AND betrayed her, and she snaps. She doesn’t have Jorah, Missandei, a reliable Tyrion, or a non- emotional Grey Worm to reign her in anymore. And as the DD said— the vision of the Red Keep set her off as well. The Baratheon/Starks/Lannisters killed her family, forced her to exile her home, and now she’s achieve victory over a city and continent that doesn’t love her. So she chose violence/fear.
People saying that she could have just burned the Red Keep and the people in those walls. A regular person may have had the “strength” to limit the carnage to that location, but she’s a Targaryen and we got the wrong side of a coin flip.
For all the people who are saying that it's only a minority that disliked the last two episodes:
Episode 4 is 57% on rotten tomatoes, episode 5 is 50%. The only other time GoT was below 75% was the sand snakes episode in S5, which had a 54%.
Episode 4 has 6.3 on IMDB, episode 5 7.1. They are the only episodes to ever get a score below 8 on IMDB. Even the Sand Snakes episode got an 8.1.
Just so you have an idea, X files season 11 didn't have a single IMDB rating as low as 6.3, and 7.1 is lower than all but 2 season 11 X Files episodes.
We know from both Jaime and Tyrion Lannister's earlier storylines on "Game of Thrones" that the Mad King had stores of wildfire placed all around King's Landing. Though it's possible Cersei also had new wildfire booby-traps created, it's likely that Daenerys inadvertently set off her own father's stashes of wildfire, drawing a thematic link between the two destructive Targaryens.
I hope the guys have her back on, because she liked it more than they did.
After my first watch, my biggest issue was Jamie’s character truly going back to Cerci. But after sleeping on it I really don’t think it was an awful episode, certainly not as bad as “the crew” (formerly “the guys”) seemed to be piling on.
In my eyes this is what set Dany off and tracks (a lot of people have given these reasons, so I’ll start with what I think is a unique one):
-Dany could have done this attack from the moment she came to Westeros and she’s realizing that. If she had listened to the queen of thorns she would have secured the same victory, easier, with 3 dragons intact, and the bells would have rang and she would have been a savior vs a monster. But she listened to her advisors who either died at the hands of her enemies, betrayed her, or gave her bad intel. So as the bells are ringing you can see the rage building that she won this easily, she has no support from the realm, her love snubbed her AND betrayed her, and she snaps. She doesn’t have Jorah, Missandei, a reliable Tyrion, or a non- emotional Grey Worm to reign her in anymore. And as the DD said— the vision of the Red Keep set her off as well. The Baratheon/Starks/Lannisters killed her family, forced her to exile her home, and now she’s achieve victory over a city and continent that doesn’t love her. So she chose violence/fear.
People saying that she could have just burned the Red Keep and the people in those walls. A regular person may have had the “strength” to limit the carnage to that location, but she’s a Targaryen and we got the wrong side of a coin flip.
Similar feelings here. She could have just burned the Red Keep but she was definitely snapping and snapping doesn't really happen in a logical way.
Dany has always had an issue with impulse control.I see a lot of people saying, “why would she burn the city? She already won.” Earlier in this same episode she told Jon that she had experienced no love at all since she arrived in Westeros and then basically gets friend zoned by one of the few people who does love her. So she literally said, “Fear,then” and “mercy will not be our weakness anymore.” All that said, in her victory moment staring at the red keep and hearing the bells ringing for “mercy” she’s probably re-playing all the shit she’s been through since arriving in Westeros. All the times she chose “mercy” and lost her own people. And in this moment she must decide again between mercy or fear and obviously she decides fear. She has always been entitled and in her mind probably already sees anyone who stayed loyal to Cersei by even staying in King’s Landing, an enemy. And what does she doe to enemies? Dracarys
Your making this into a black or white issue. She doesn't need to kill an entire city (including her army) to instill fear into her enemies. She could have done a hundred other things that were a little less extreme. She could have flown up to the Red Keep and roasted Cersei and all the people inside there. She could have executed everyone who stood against her after the battle. There are plenty of ways she could inspired fear without going bat shit crazy villian. Why did she go crazy? Cause the show runners need her too, but for me they didn't do enough to earn it.
The same way I didn't think Sansa withholding information from Jon in Battle of the Bastards was earned. There are plenty of other examples of them eneeding the plot to go in a certain direction but not making it believable.
But now you’re making into a “she could’ve done this or that”. She has a history of impulse control and actually going extreme with those impulses and she made a bad impulsive decision. It’s no different than arguing a refs bad call during a sports game. Does this ref have a history of making poor calls? Yes, but that doesn’t stop him from making them again in the future
I dare you to give one example of an impulsive decision she made that even comes close to murdering a million people for no practical reason. She knew her own soldiers were fighting down there, when has she ever indiscriminately killed those loyal to her?
Maybe it worked for you, but it didn't for me and plenty others.
That’s like if some piece of shit murders his wife after years of abuse someone saying “show me when he has ever killed someone!”
I don't know what to tell the people who think Danys turn was unearned and out-of-nowhere.
They put the words right in the character's mouth and the show has been raising and re-raising this concern for years. Just because we didn't want it to happen, doesn't mean it's not a valid story.
What did you think she meant when she said her mercy would be for the next generation and she was opting for fear? How many times does Tyrion have to talk about bells before it's obvious what's going to happen? The loooooong close up of a sleep-deprived half-mad Dany was a pretty good peak into her state of mind.
She ends-justify-the-means'd the shit out of this so she could give in to her darker tendencies.
I felt sick watching this because it was all so unnecessary, but that doesn't mean it came out of left field. I didn't want this to happen, but that's GoT for you.
We could all see the Mad Queen coming for a long time, the show was just a bit clumsy getting her there. Like much of the storytelling these last two seasons it was all very rushed. Overall though I liked the episode. I thought the major characters who died this episode all met with fitting ends.
Also from Kim Renfro's piece, this is a better explanation than D&D gave
I feel like torching the Red Keep would be enough, but it makes some sense to me.
The episode's director, Miguel Sapochnik, said in HBO's "The Game Revealed" segment that Daenerys pushed forward with the slaughter in part because the surrender felt too easy. She and Grey Worm came for blood, wanting to avenge Missandei and her other fallen followers. "She feels empty," he said. "It wasn't what she thought it was. It's not enough." Once Daenerys decided to continue punishing the city, she vanishes from the episode's perspective. We only see the dragon and destruction — never our Mother of Dragons herself.
Also think it might have helped to show that Varys' notes had gone out and that made Dany paranoid, leaving her to think she wouldn't be seen as legitimate anymore. Legitimacy is obviously bullshit, but it's been a huge part of Dany's self-justification this whole time. "I'll take what is mine through fire and blood" and all that.
Dany definetely broke the wheels on those ballistas they liked to show off, that's got to count for something. I really hope oldtown comes into play in the last episode, they are well connected and not really into magic and could support Jon and verify his claim.
For all the people who are saying that it's only a minority that disliked the last two episodes:
Episode 4 is 57% on rotten tomatoes, episode 5 is 50%. The only other time GoT was below 75% was the sand snakes episode in S5, which had a 54%.
Episode 4 has 6.3 on IMDB, episode 5 7.1. They are the only episodes to ever get a score below 8 on IMDB. Even the Sand Snakes episode got an 8.1.
Just so you have an idea, X files season 11 didn't have a single IMDB rating as low as 6.3, and 7.1 is lower than all but 2 season 11 X Files episodes.
In the books, the Mad King was a little paranoid about people for a long time, but there was a single event that flipped the switch on him going crazy and turning into the mad king we know him as. This was the Defiance of Duskendale. So don't tell me the books do it better with these characters.
For all the people who are saying that it's only a minority that disliked the last two episodes:
Episode 4 is 57% on rotten tomatoes, episode 5 is 50%. The only other time GoT was below 75% was the sand snakes episode in S5, which had a 54%.
Episode 4 has 6.3 on IMDB, episode 5 7.1. They are the only episodes to ever get a score below 8 on IMDB. Even the Sand Snakes episode got an 8.1.
Just so you have an idea, X files season 11 didn't have a single IMDB rating as low as 6.3, and 7.1 is lower than all but 2 season 11 X Files episodes.
(Have not gone through the 250+ comments yet or done a rewatch...)
I thought this was a C episode...I thought a some of the beats tracked, but others needed more supporting evidence which we could have gotten in a longer slower-paced season.
I liked the previously on. They try not to do flashbacks, but I think that was needed in the episode to tie together the Mad Depressed Queen stuff.
So it appears as some time has passed since Missandei's execution, right? Dany's not eating and holed up. It took Jon and the army the time it takes to get to Dragonstone. I didn't think Varys' spying needed to be established because Tyrion already knew and ratted him out. V's spy network was broken, he was restarting it, and his new birds weren't as good as his old ones so they got caught. Tracks for me, but again, I could have used another scene in an earlier episode (if we had 8-10 episodes). That execution shot of Drogon was amazing. I felt like I was looking at a better Alien.
I'd love it if we could put the whole "aunt" thing to bed. IMO, that's not why Jon isn't into Dany. Yes, its incestuous, but the show hasn't played that up. Jon isn't into Dany bc her immediate reaction to finding out was that she valued her claim to the Throne more than their relationship. On top of that, she's continued to treat him as a subject and not a partner, and she's made some harsh decisions. The aunt thing is prob 4th on the list.
I'm a bit surprised there weren't immediate repercussions for Tyrion freeing Jamie. That feels like a gap in the narrative. Euron and Jamie washing up together is also dubious. There are ways to address both things if there's more time. Like maybe Euron's men catch Jamie, and Euron decides to fight him one-on-one so he can say he's the man who killed Jamie (knowing if he brought Jamie to Cersei, she might change her mind about killing Jamie). The fight itself was fine.
No qualms with Clegane Bowl. It was better than I expected. Cersei leaving and Qyburn dying felt good. Just a personal vengeance quest for Sandor, that ends with death by fire. I never expected Sandor to "beat" an undead Mountain in a straight up fight, and I'm glad the show runners didn't go that way.
I thought Arya leaving her vengeance quest tracked. Last week, several of us asked what her life would look like after this was over. Adventurer? Assassin? Finishing the list? While I felt like those would have fit her, I didn't see that as a good thing. I'm not saying she should go marry Gendry (she prob will), but the healthier option is moving on past vengeance. And even if she shared the full extent of her assassin skills, Jon would have tried to stop her from going on that mission. Cersei is guarded 24/7 by "the best." Yes, we know Arya could kill Cersei unharmed, but Jon and Sansa don't.
Jamie's stuff tracks for me...partially, but...it feels rushed. Jamie has been in this toxic relationship since birth. Again, the previously ons did a better job than the show. Sansa's remark about Cersei's execution is clearly what was shook Jamie. It got real for him, and he realized he needed to go back. Yes, it obviously undoes the growth we thought he had. But as Tyrion implied, he always knew his deeds (and Cersei) were horrible. It didn't matter...only Cersei. If Bubbles had gone back to drugs at the end of the Wire, would you be surprised? I wouldn't. I'm assuming he and Cersei are dead. If they hadn't pulled the "drowning" stunt after the Loot Train, I would be 100% sure. I shot of them buried in embraced in rubble would have helped. It tracks for me that Jamie and Cersei die together, though.
Finally, Dany's heel turn. Saw a graphic on Twitter with S1-7, where Dany burns someone in every season (except when she crucifies the Masters). AVE - Always Violent Executions. But to Jim's point last night, what was the trigger? Was it seeing the Red Keep? Was it her realization that once Drogon blew up the ballistas, the towns people were already scared and "rule by fear" was the only path? I like to think this is what they wanted to portray, but they didn't. She should just charge the Red Keep and be done with it. I wonder if she'll explain her actions, or just pull the "executive privilege" card. As Jorah said, "there's a beast in every man." I am not surprised that the Northerns get out of control and clearly, Grey Worm overcame his conditioning. I assume the rest of the Unsullied were "just following orders."
I didn't need the pale horse, if that's where they were going. It's a trope at this point, and it'll be odd if Arya doesn't kill Dany.
TLDR Version: Lots of directing/writing/editing issues getting characters through plot points. Beautiful effects. They needed 8-10 episodes to finish the season the right way.
For all the people who are saying that it's only a minority that disliked the last two episodes:
Episode 4 is 57% on rotten tomatoes, episode 5 is 50%. The only other time GoT was below 75% was the sand snakes episode in S5, which had a 54%.
Episode 4 has 6.3 on IMDB, episode 5 7.1. They are the only episodes to ever get a score below 8 on IMDB. Even the Sand Snakes episode got an 8.1.
Just so you have an idea, X files season 11 didn't have a single IMDB rating as low as 6.3, and 7.1 is lower than all but 2 season 11 X Files episodes.
Critics are not the majority of audience
IMDB ratings are not done by critics.
Right, it's just the most hyper-focused viewers who are more likely to delve into the minutia of episodes and are the most passionate/emotional about what happens with characters. As we can see with Star Wars and many other things, hating something is generally more motivating than liking something, so you will always have more people running to post about their hate on reddit and comments sections, and running to give a 0 score to a movie/episode they dislike.
Even if what I'm saying is BS, it's at 7.1/10 right now on IMDB. That hardly gives anyone the idea that the negative thoughts are in the majority.
Now the execution isn’t perfect, and I’m not attempting to defend the show in its entirety. But the negativity I see is either because the story hasn’t worked out the way people predicted/wanted (it’s a tragedy, not a fairytale) or because they’ve imposed some feminist hero status on Dany, which was always nonsense.
You're right, that is nonsense, to think and claim that those are the reasons people are criticizing the show now.
All the Chickens said: Most fans/viewers aren't podcasters or TV critics, nor are they on those platforms discussing GOT. They just aren't. Average fans aren't even the ones who click on fan polls to rate episodes.
So there's a mythical "silent majority" out there that loves the episode, huh? I'd ask for evidence of that, but I guess, like you said, those people are conveniently internet-silent.
What I'm really curious about is if our Hero faction splits, what can anyone arrayed against Dany do about Drogon? And if they manage to kill Dany, does Drogon just roam the countryside eating kids and melting castles?
Dany has always had an issue with impulse control.I see a lot of people saying, “why would she burn the city? She already won.” Earlier in this same episode she told Jon that she had experienced no love at all since she arrived in Westeros and then basically gets friend zoned by one of the few people who does love her. So she literally said, “Fear,then” and “mercy will not be our weakness anymore.” All that said, in her victory moment staring at the red keep and hearing the bells ringing for “mercy” she’s probably re-playing all the shit she’s been through since arriving in Westeros. All the times she chose “mercy” and lost her own people. And in this moment she must decide again between mercy or fear and obviously she decides fear. She has always been entitled and in her mind probably already sees anyone who stayed loyal to Cersei by even staying in King’s Landing, an enemy. And what does she doe to enemies? Dracarys
Your making this into a black or white issue. She doesn't need to kill an entire city (including her army) to instill fear into her enemies. She could have done a hundred other things that were a little less extreme. She could have flown up to the Red Keep and roasted Cersei and all the people inside there. She could have executed everyone who stood against her after the battle. There are plenty of ways she could inspired fear without going bat shit crazy villian. Why did she go crazy? Cause the show runners need her too, but for me they didn't do enough to earn it.
The same way I didn't think Sansa withholding information from Jon in Battle of the Bastards was earned. There are plenty of other examples of them eneeding the plot to go in a certain direction but not making it believable.
But now you’re making into a “she could’ve done this or that”. She has a history of impulse control and actually going extreme with those impulses and she made a bad impulsive decision. It’s no different than arguing a refs bad call during a sports game. Does this ref have a history of making poor calls? Yes, but that doesn’t stop him from making them again in the future
I dare you to give one example of an impulsive decision she made that even comes close to murdering a million people for no practical reason. She knew her own soldiers were fighting down there, when has she ever indiscriminately killed those loyal to her?
Maybe it worked for you, but it didn't for me and plenty others.
That’s like if some piece of shit murders his wife after years of abuse someone saying “show me when he has ever killed someone!”
Your analogy is just... wow. I'm just going to disagree and leave it at that.
What I'm really curious about is if our Hero faction splits, what can anyone arrayed against Dany do about Drogon? And if they manage to kill Dany, does Drogon just roam the countryside eating kids and melting castles?
Someone is going to have to be the Drogon killer. A good question is who would that be? Bron? That seems a little silly. Jon kills Dany and then dies killing Drogon? I do like the idea of the show ending with Drogon roaming Westeros burning everything though.
All the Chickens said: Most fans/viewers aren't podcasters or TV critics, nor are they on those platforms discussing GOT. They just aren't. Average fans aren't even the ones who click on fan polls to rate episodes.
So there's a mythical "silent majority" out there that loves the episode, huh? I'd ask for evidence of that, but I guess, like you said, those people are conveniently internet-silent.
Dude, in this thread, go through and count the "liked it" vs "hated it". Go look at the IMDB rating.
You do understand that even the incredible amount of listeners of this podcast is less than 1% of all people watching the show, right? A.Ron and Jim have even pointed this out. It's not a silent majority. You just think that negatives on r/asoiaf and r/freefolk and a few podcasters/journalists are representative of average fans. I don't know why. People complaining on the internet are always louder and more motivated to complain than those who just liked something, and aside from that most average fans don't bother to peruse fan forums or share their opinions in that medium.
And to be clear, there was never a path for the rest of Westeros to "love" Dany as a ruler right off. She would have had to earn that over time, and that would only happen because of Drogon. I think if Davos had taken Dany (with no dragons) house-to-house looking for support like he did with Stannis and Jon, they'd have told him to "Fock Off." It was fallacy for Tyrion, Dany or anyone else to think Dany's rule required fear.
If Dany finally realized that in mid-air, I could buy her going all "I love the smell of dragon fire in the morning." But the show did a bad job of conveying what was going on in her head. I can't tell if they telegraphed it earlier in the Dragonstone Throne Room, but I felt like she was lying to Tyrion about accepting surrender. However, I guess DD's did not agree.
I think it's pretty well known that complainers are the loudest and most vocal. They're always going to swamp the internet first with their criticisms. Which is totally fine, you just can't call it definitive in any way. Especially right after the episode airs. RT and IMDB aren't great measures of quality in general. Especially RT - it would at least be better if they used the cumulative stars rating, rather than saying 85% of people gave this more than 3.5 stars, so the 'rating' is 85% I rate movies 3 stars all the time that I think are worth watching, and it doesn't mean something is great if 100% of people think a movie is just 3.5 or better. The way it handles critics' reviews is even worse.
I don't think there's a way to know what people think of it outside of actual random polling. I've actually been surprised how many people liked it.
First time in my life I've ever gone into work on a Monday morning with this on my mind:
"If only that Aunt & Nephew boned more, maybe it would have been a happier ending."
Thanks for that, GOT. I enjoyed the BM instant-take (slightly) more than the episode but I'm fully committed to my fan bankruptcy. If GRRM is going to a similar narrative conclusion, this episode helps me to understand why the books are slow-going. It is hard to get motivated to tear down a decade's worth of character development, hard enough to kill these characters that become family to you and to fully up-end the world in which they inhabit with fire and blood, ash & smoke.
Oh, and and Urine Greyjoy shirts with a witty saying or a concert-shirt motif. Maybe a calvin pissing logo? Anyway.. Get on that and please and take my money.
For all the people who are saying that it's only a minority that disliked the last two episodes:
Episode 4 is 57% on rotten tomatoes, episode 5 is 50%. The only other time GoT was below 75% was the sand snakes episode in S5, which had a 54%.
Episode 4 has 6.3 on IMDB, episode 5 7.1. They are the only episodes to ever get a score below 8 on IMDB. Even the Sand Snakes episode got an 8.1.
Just so you have an idea, X files season 11 didn't have a single IMDB rating as low as 6.3, and 7.1 is lower than all but 2 season 11 X Files episodes.
Critics are not the majority of audience
IMDB ratings are not done by critics.
Right, it's just the most hyper-focused viewers who are more likely to delve into the minutia of episodes and are the most passionate/emotional about what happens with characters. As we can see with Star Wars and many other things, hating something is generally more motivating than liking something, so you will always have more people running to post about their hate on reddit and comments sections, and running to give a 0 score to a movie/episode they dislike.
Even if what I'm saying is BS, it's at 7.1/10 right now on IMDB. That hardly gives anyone the idea that the negative thoughts are in the majority.
It's 40 thousand votes, and something that has never happened before, so it's not just some small group of people. And yes, I said that it was 6.3 for episode 4 and 7.1 for episode 5. So I don't know why you think you are correcting what I said. 7.1 is worse than all but 3 episodes of seasons 10 and 11 of the x files, a show that was widely recognized as overstaying its welcome.
Again, if IMDB ratings are all just hyper-focused viewers nitpicking, why didn't ratings get this low until now? You can't have it both ways. It can't be just a minority nitpicking when it is the only time ever it has happened with this show. The X Files, which is frequently used as the standard of a show that went to shit and people just gave up on never had a 6.3 episode rating, and only 3 episodes lower than 7.1
For all the people who are saying that it's only a minority that disliked the last two episodes:
Episode 4 is 57% on rotten tomatoes, episode 5 is 50%. The only other time GoT was below 75% was the sand snakes episode in S5, which had a 54%.
Episode 4 has 6.3 on IMDB, episode 5 7.1. They are the only episodes to ever get a score below 8 on IMDB. Even the Sand Snakes episode got an 8.1.
Just so you have an idea, X files season 11 didn't have a single IMDB rating as low as 6.3, and 7.1 is lower than all but 2 season 11 X Files episodes.
Critics are not the majority of audience
IMDB ratings are not done by critics.
Right, it's just the most hyper-focused viewers who are more likely to delve into the minutia of episodes and are the most passionate/emotional about what happens with characters. As we can see with Star Wars and many other things, hating something is generally more motivating than liking something, so you will always have more people running to post about their hate on reddit and comments sections, and running to give a 0 score to a movie/episode they dislike.
Even if what I'm saying is BS, it's at 7.1/10 right now on IMDB. That hardly gives anyone the idea that the negative thoughts are in the majority.
It's 40 thousand votes, and something that has never happened before, so it's not just some small group of people. And yes, I said that it was 6.3 for episode 4 and 7.1 for episode 5. So I don't know why you think you are correcting what I said. 7.1 is worse than all but 3 episodes of seasons 10 and 11 of the x files, a show that was widely recognized as overstaying its welcome.
Again, if IMDB ratings are all just hyper-focused viewers nitpicking, why didn't ratings get this low until now? You can't have it both ways. It can't be just a minority nitpicking when it is the only time ever it has happened with this show. The X Files, which is frequently used as the standard of a show that went to shit and people just gave up on never had a 6.3 episode rating, and only 3 episodes lower than 7.1
40,000 out of 100,000,000+ million viewers.
It literally is a minority based on the actual rating you are talking about, regardless of what past ratings were, especially when you consider than super fans rush to these sites with much more motivation to give an episode 0's when they hate it than when they just like it or thought it was good.
Comments
In my eyes this is what set Dany off and tracks (a lot of people have given these reasons, so I’ll start with what I think is a unique one):
-Dany could have done this attack from the moment she came to Westeros and she’s realizing that. If she had listened to the queen of thorns she would have secured the same victory, easier, with 3 dragons intact, and the bells would have rang and she would have been a savior vs a monster. But she listened to her advisors who either died at the hands of her enemies, betrayed her, or gave her bad intel. So as the bells are ringing you can see the rage building that she won this easily, she has no support from the realm, her love snubbed her AND betrayed her, and she snaps. She doesn’t have Jorah, Missandei, a reliable Tyrion, or a non- emotional Grey Worm to reign her in anymore. And as the DD said— the vision of the Red Keep set her off as well. The Baratheon/Starks/Lannisters killed her family, forced her to exile her home, and now she’s achieve victory over a city and continent that doesn’t love her. So she chose violence/fear.
People saying that she could have just burned the Red Keep and the people in those walls. A regular person may have had the “strength” to limit the carnage to that location, but she’s a Targaryen and we got the wrong side of a coin flip.
https://www.insider.com/game-of-thrones-season-eight-episode-five-analysis-details-2019-5#small-caches-of-wildfire-exploded-throughout-the-city-as-it-burned-these-hearken-back-to-danys-father-the-mad-king-12
I hope the guys have her back on, because she liked it more than they did.
That’s like if some piece of shit murders his wife after years of abuse someone saying “show me when he has ever killed someone!”
They put the words right in the character's mouth and the show has been raising and re-raising this concern for years. Just because we didn't want it to happen, doesn't mean it's not a valid story.
What did you think she meant when she said her mercy would be for the next generation and she was opting for fear? How many times does Tyrion have to talk about bells before it's obvious what's going to happen? The loooooong close up of a sleep-deprived half-mad Dany was a pretty good peak into her state of mind.
She ends-justify-the-means'd the shit out of this so she could give in to her darker tendencies.
I felt sick watching this because it was all so unnecessary, but that doesn't mean it came out of left field. I didn't want this to happen, but that's GoT for you.
*Sees 167 new replies in this thread*
*Tries to open thread, forum struggles like a 30-year-old Yugo trying to go up a hill*
*Gives up trying to actually read every reply*
I feel like torching the Red Keep would be enough, but it makes some sense to me.
Also think it might have helped to show that Varys' notes had gone out and that made Dany paranoid, leaving her to think she wouldn't be seen as legitimate anymore. Legitimacy is obviously bullshit, but it's been a huge part of Dany's self-justification this whole time. "I'll take what is mine through fire and blood" and all that.
I really hope oldtown comes into play in the last episode, they are well connected and not really into magic and could support Jon and verify his claim.
P.S. What is the Word for freeze in old valyrian?
Dany had her same switch flipped.
I thought this was a C episode...I thought a some of the beats tracked, but others needed more supporting evidence which we could have gotten in a longer slower-paced season.
I liked the previously on. They try not to do flashbacks, but I think that was needed in the episode to tie together the Mad Depressed Queen stuff.
So it appears as some time has passed since Missandei's execution, right? Dany's not eating and holed up. It took Jon and the army the time it takes to get to Dragonstone.
I didn't think Varys' spying needed to be established because Tyrion already knew and ratted him out. V's spy network was broken, he was restarting it, and his new birds weren't as good as his old ones so they got caught. Tracks for me, but again, I could have used another scene in an earlier episode (if we had 8-10 episodes). That execution shot of Drogon was amazing. I felt like I was looking at a better Alien.
I'd love it if we could put the whole "aunt" thing to bed. IMO, that's not why Jon isn't into Dany. Yes, its incestuous, but the show hasn't played that up. Jon isn't into Dany bc her immediate reaction to finding out was that she valued her claim to the Throne more than their relationship. On top of that, she's continued to treat him as a subject and not a partner, and she's made some harsh decisions. The aunt thing is prob 4th on the list.
I'm a bit surprised there weren't immediate repercussions for Tyrion freeing Jamie. That feels like a gap in the narrative. Euron and Jamie washing up together is also dubious. There are ways to address both things if there's more time. Like maybe Euron's men catch Jamie, and Euron decides to fight him one-on-one so he can say he's the man who killed Jamie (knowing if he brought Jamie to Cersei, she might change her mind about killing Jamie). The fight itself was fine.
No qualms with Clegane Bowl. It was better than I expected. Cersei leaving and Qyburn dying felt good. Just a personal vengeance quest for Sandor, that ends with death by fire. I never expected Sandor to "beat" an undead Mountain in a straight up fight, and I'm glad the show runners didn't go that way.
I thought Arya leaving her vengeance quest tracked. Last week, several of us asked what her life would look like after this was over. Adventurer? Assassin? Finishing the list? While I felt like those would have fit her, I didn't see that as a good thing. I'm not saying she should go marry Gendry (she prob will), but the healthier option is moving on past vengeance. And even if she shared the full extent of her assassin skills, Jon would have tried to stop her from going on that mission. Cersei is guarded 24/7 by "the best." Yes, we know Arya could kill Cersei unharmed, but Jon and Sansa don't.
Jamie's stuff tracks for me...partially, but...it feels rushed. Jamie has been in this toxic relationship since birth. Again, the previously ons did a better job than the show. Sansa's remark about Cersei's execution is clearly what was shook Jamie. It got real for him, and he realized he needed to go back. Yes, it obviously undoes the growth we thought he had. But as Tyrion implied, he always knew his deeds (and Cersei) were horrible. It didn't matter...only Cersei. If Bubbles had gone back to drugs at the end of the Wire, would you be surprised? I wouldn't. I'm assuming he and Cersei are dead. If they hadn't pulled the "drowning" stunt after the Loot Train, I would be 100% sure. I shot of them buried in embraced in rubble would have helped. It tracks for me that Jamie and Cersei die together, though.
Finally, Dany's heel turn. Saw a graphic on Twitter with S1-7, where Dany burns someone in every season (except when she crucifies the Masters). AVE - Always Violent Executions. But to Jim's point last night, what was the trigger? Was it seeing the Red Keep? Was it her realization that once Drogon blew up the ballistas, the towns people were already scared and "rule by fear" was the only path? I like to think this is what they wanted to portray, but they didn't. She should just charge the Red Keep and be done with it. I wonder if she'll explain her actions, or just pull the "executive privilege" card. As Jorah said, "there's a beast in every man." I am not surprised that the Northerns get out of control and clearly, Grey Worm overcame his conditioning. I assume the rest of the Unsullied were "just following orders."
I didn't need the pale horse, if that's where they were going. It's a trope at this point, and it'll be odd if Arya doesn't kill Dany.
TLDR Version: Lots of directing/writing/editing issues getting characters through plot points. Beautiful effects. They needed 8-10 episodes to finish the season the right way.
Even if what I'm saying is BS, it's at 7.1/10 right now on IMDB. That hardly gives anyone the idea that the negative thoughts are in the majority.
Someone is going to have to be the Drogon killer. A good question is who would that be? Bron? That seems a little silly. Jon kills Dany and then dies killing Drogon? I do like the idea of the show ending with Drogon roaming Westeros burning everything though.
You do understand that even the incredible amount of listeners of this podcast is less than 1% of all people watching the show, right? A.Ron and Jim have even pointed this out. It's not a silent majority. You just think that negatives on r/asoiaf and r/freefolk and a few podcasters/journalists are representative of average fans. I don't know why. People complaining on the internet are always louder and more motivated to complain than those who just liked something, and aside from that most average fans don't bother to peruse fan forums or share their opinions in that medium.
If Dany finally realized that in mid-air, I could buy her going all "I love the smell of dragon fire in the morning." But the show did a bad job of conveying what was going on in her head. I can't tell if they telegraphed it earlier in the Dragonstone Throne Room, but I felt like she was lying to Tyrion about accepting surrender. However, I guess DD's did not agree.
I don't think there's a way to know what people think of it outside of actual random polling. I've actually been surprised how many people liked it.
"If only that Aunt & Nephew boned more, maybe it would have been a happier ending."
Thanks for that, GOT. I enjoyed the BM instant-take (slightly) more than the episode but I'm fully committed to my fan bankruptcy. If GRRM is going to a similar narrative conclusion, this episode helps me to understand why the books are slow-going. It is hard to get motivated to tear down a decade's worth of character development, hard enough to kill these characters that become family to you and to fully up-end the world in which they inhabit with fire and blood, ash & smoke.
Oh, and and Urine Greyjoy shirts with a witty saying or a concert-shirt motif. Maybe a calvin pissing logo? Anyway.. Get on that and please and take my money.
It literally is a minority based on the actual rating you are talking about, regardless of what past ratings were, especially when you consider than super fans rush to these sites with much more motivation to give an episode 0's when they hate it than when they just like it or thought it was good.