For all the people who are saying that it's only a minority that disliked the last two episodes:
Episode 4 is 57% on rotten tomatoes, episode 5 is 50%. The only other time GoT was below 75% was the sand snakes episode in S5, which had a 54%.
Episode 4 has 6.3 on IMDB, episode 5 7.1. They are the only episodes to ever get a score below 8 on IMDB. Even the Sand Snakes episode got an 8.1.
Just so you have an idea, X files season 11 didn't have a single IMDB rating as low as 6.3, and 7.1 is lower than all but 2 season 11 X Files episodes.
Critics are not the majority of audience
IMDB ratings are not done by critics.
Right, it's just the most hyper-focused viewers who are more likely to delve into the minutia of episodes and are the most passionate/emotional about what happens with characters. As we can see with Star Wars and many other things, hating something is generally more motivating than liking something, so you will always have more people running to post about their hate on reddit and comments sections, and running to give a 0 score to a movie/episode they dislike.
Even if what I'm saying is BS, it's at 7.1/10 right now on IMDB. That hardly gives anyone the idea that the negative thoughts are in the majority.
It's 40 thousand votes, and something that has never happened before, so it's not just some small group of people. And yes, I said that it was 6.3 for episode 4 and 7.1 for episode 5. So I don't know why you think you are correcting what I said. 7.1 is worse than all but 3 episodes of seasons 10 and 11 of the x files, a show that was widely recognized as overstaying its welcome.
Again, if IMDB ratings are all just hyper-focused viewers nitpicking, why didn't ratings get this low until now? You can't have it both ways. It can't be just a minority nitpicking when it is the only time ever it has happened with this show. The X Files, which is frequently used as the standard of a show that went to shit and people just gave up on never had a 6.3 episode rating, and only 3 episodes lower than 7.1
40,000 out of 100+ million viewers.
It literally is a minority based on the actual rating you are talking about, regardless of what past ratings were, especially when you consider than super fans rush to these sites with much more motivation to give an episode 0's when they hate it than when they just like it or thought it was good.
Just like there's people who rush to give 0s, there's people who rush to give 10s.
You are setting up a literal impossible scenario. Should 50 million + submit signed affidavits for you to believe that there is something going on when a TV show goes from 9.5 to 7.1 average IMDB rating?
For all the people who are saying that it's only a minority that disliked the last two episodes:
Episode 4 is 57% on rotten tomatoes, episode 5 is 50%. The only other time GoT was below 75% was the sand snakes episode in S5, which had a 54%.
Episode 4 has 6.3 on IMDB, episode 5 7.1. They are the only episodes to ever get a score below 8 on IMDB. Even the Sand Snakes episode got an 8.1.
Just so you have an idea, X files season 11 didn't have a single IMDB rating as low as 6.3, and 7.1 is lower than all but 2 season 11 X Files episodes.
Critics are not the majority of audience
IMDB ratings are not done by critics.
Right, it's just the most hyper-focused viewers who are more likely to delve into the minutia of episodes and are the most passionate/emotional about what happens with characters. As we can see with Star Wars and many other things, hating something is generally more motivating than liking something, so you will always have more people running to post about their hate on reddit and comments sections, and running to give a 0 score to a movie/episode they dislike.
Even if what I'm saying is BS, it's at 7.1/10 right now on IMDB. That hardly gives anyone the idea that the negative thoughts are in the majority.
It's 40 thousand votes, and something that has never happened before, so it's not just some small group of people. And yes, I said that it was 6.3 for episode 4 and 7.1 for episode 5. So I don't know why you think you are correcting what I said. 7.1 is worse than all but 3 episodes of seasons 10 and 11 of the x files, a show that was widely recognized as overstaying its welcome.
Again, if IMDB ratings are all just hyper-focused viewers nitpicking, why didn't ratings get this low until now? You can't have it both ways. It can't be just a minority nitpicking when it is the only time ever it has happened with this show. The X Files, which is frequently used as the standard of a show that went to shit and people just gave up on never had a 6.3 episode rating, and only 3 episodes lower than 7.1
40,000 out of 100+ million viewers.
It literally is a minority based on the actual rating you are talking about, regardless of what past ratings were, especially when you consider than super fans rush to these sites with much more motivation to give an episode 0's when they hate it than when they just like it or thought it was good.
Just like there's people who rush to give 0s, there's people who rush to give 10s.
You are setting up a literal impossible scenario. Should 50 million + submit signed affidavits for you to believe that there is something going on when a TV show goes from 9.5 to 7.1 average IMDB rating?
I'm not saying that people don't dislike it. That would be delusional. I'm only pointing out that those people are not the majority opinion. That's it.
All the Chickens said: Most fans/viewers aren't podcasters or TV critics, nor are they on those platforms discussing GOT. They just aren't. Average fans aren't even the ones who click on fan polls to rate episodes.
So there's a mythical "silent majority" out there that loves the episode, huh? I'd ask for evidence of that, but I guess, like you said, those people are conveniently internet-silent.
Dude, in this thread, go through and count the "liked it" vs "hated it". Go look at the IMDB rating.
You do understand that even the incredible amount of listeners of this podcast is less than 1% of all people watching the show, right? A.Ron and Jim have even pointed this out. It's not a silent majority. You just think that negatives on r/asoiaf and r/freefolk and a few podcasters/journalists are representative of average fans. I don't know why. People complaining on the internet are always louder and more motivated to complain than those who just liked something, and aside from that most average fans don't bother to peruse fan forums or share their opinions in that medium.
I guess I just don't see evidence of the existence of this bloc of "average fans."
What I see here in these forums, in terms of the show's apologists, are some people who don't want to admit to themselves that their emotional investment in the show has been squandered. It's cognitive dissonance. I don't see much unequivocal love for this episode, or the final season in general at this point. I see a lot of "Yeah, there were definitely issues with HOW they did it, but I still really like it I swear!" And whether we're talking about this forum, redditt, twitter, facebook, or christianmingle, those people are in the minority. Most people are coming to terms with the fact that the showrunners are fumbling this motherfucker over the goalline.
I'd just like to point out that 7.1/10 is fine, so by the data everyone is relying on here it's pretty clear the average fan does not think this episode was bad. They think it was fine. Which is what basically none of the people who have big problems with the show now are saying, as they all seem to think the show is like a 2/10 at best based on the language being used.
I'd just like to point out that 7.1/10 is fine, so by the data everyone is relying on here it's pretty clear the average fan does not think this episode was bad. They think it was fine. Which is what basically none of the people who have big problems with the show now are saying, as they all seem to think the show is like a 2/10 at best based on the language being used.
Once again, 7.1 is detective pikachu. 7.1 is worse than all but 3 episodes of the X Files. It's worse than every episode in season 2 of true detective. It's the series average of two and a half men. It's the series average of saved by the bell.
I don't think that going "most people don't think it was bad, just that it went from great to mediocre" is much of a defense.
After letting the episode marinate overnight, listening to the BM instant cast, and going through the Monday morning water cooler talk at the office.... I still like the episode a lot. Again, the story telling beyond the books has been bad, but I think the underlying ice (Jon) and fire (Dany) story George is telling is pretty damn good and I really hope he finishes the books, because I’d love to read how it was really supposed to go down.
Bringing a series like this to a conclusion is going to be divisive. It would be a good idea for everyone to think about the evidence they're providing and try to see how it will be perceived by the people they're arguing with / trying to convince.
Sure - 40,000 is a lot of votes, but this is also the most-watched show in history. If you normalize for audience size, how unprecedented is it really? If you don't answer that question when you present a number like this, you're inviting others to deflect your point by assuming a closer look will invalidate it.
You may not be able to anticipate every argument against your position, but if try to consider and address them it goes a long way to getting the discussion past first principles.
All the Chickens said: Most fans/viewers aren't podcasters or TV critics, nor are they on those platforms discussing GOT. They just aren't. Average fans aren't even the ones who click on fan polls to rate episodes.
So there's a mythical "silent majority" out there that loves the episode, huh? I'd ask for evidence of that, but I guess, like you said, those people are conveniently internet-silent.
Dude, in this thread, go through and count the "liked it" vs "hated it". Go look at the IMDB rating.
You do understand that even the incredible amount of listeners of this podcast is less than 1% of all people watching the show, right? A.Ron and Jim have even pointed this out. It's not a silent majority. You just think that negatives on r/asoiaf and r/freefolk and a few podcasters/journalists are representative of average fans. I don't know why. People complaining on the internet are always louder and more motivated to complain than those who just liked something, and aside from that most average fans don't bother to peruse fan forums or share their opinions in that medium.
I guess I just don't see evidence of the existence of this bloc of "average fans."
What I see here in these forums, in terms of the show's apologists, are some people who don't want to admit to themselves that their emotional investment in the show has been squandered. It's cognitive dissonance. I don't see much unequivocal love for this episode, or the final season in general at this point. I see a lot of "Yeah, there were definitely issues with HOW they did it, but I still really like it I swear!" And whether we're talking about this forum, redditt, twitter, facebook, or christianmingle, those people are in the minority. Most people are coming to terms with the fact that the showrunners are fumbling this motherfucker over the goalline.
So instead of admitting that more people enjoyed the episode you just invalidate the opinions of those who enjoyed it? I can't really have a discussion with you, because I could say the same about your negative opinions and it's just circular. You think that the hatred on reddit is the majority despite that it's an incredibly small percentage of the viewership and the most emotionally invested, and anything else pointing otherwise is just "show apologists."
You aren't going to get 100 million viewers to tell you that they thought an episode was good, because the vast majority of them don't care enough to do that. Many more probably do that on facebook comments sections than anywhere else from what I've seen, but that's still not going to be a high percentage.
I think the one clear storyline that George gave the show runners was that Dany would indeed become the Mad Queen and Jon Snow would have to defeat her. How the show runners went about it is certainly debatable, but at the very least, they didn’t make it blatantly obvious she would be the Mad Queen, which created shock value amongst the average fan watching last night. Wouldn’t it have been boring last night if everyone assumed she would become the mad queen??
Was it like Hiroshima? Not really, the Japanese hadn't all surrendered.
If she was that arsed about Jon being the people's choice, she had a few options:
Go back across the sea where people already love you
Kill Jon Snow for betrayal, along with Tyrion and Varys, plan to take out Sansa real soon
Stop when the bells sounded and burn down the highest structure in Kings Landing and the visual representation of the Elite - the Red Keep. Heck, even blasting the entire enemy army after they surrendered would have made more sense than genocide
It wasn't Danny who went crazy when the bells went off, it was Drogon. She spent the last 45 minutes of the episode trying to get him to stop. We never saw her again other than a tiny dot in the distance so must have been what happened...
However I hated the end of Jaime's arc. In some way I hope that's because GRRM will also end it that way because if this was a showrunner move then I think it was a poor move. Its tragic sure but I don't know. Just not pleased with it.
I actually like the "unsatisfactory" way Cersei went out. Its very Game of Thrones for the demise of the antagonists to not go out as fitting or violently as you would expect.
Cersei died a pretty messed up death too. She either got crushed by rocks or will be trapped beneath, essentially being buried alive. What my point was that the antagonists mostly don't go out the way we narratively expect from our run of the mill epic tales. There were many who wanted/expected Cersei to die by the hand of Jaime, Arya or in a more direct manner by Dany. Joffrey got poisoned by Littlefinger and Olenna, not murdered viciously by Arya, Sansa or Tyrion. Tywin gets killed on the toilet. Roose Bolton got killed by his own son, not any of the Starks. Even looking at the protagonists, King Robert was killed by a pig, Ned's execution ordered by Joffrey not Cersei or Jaime. I think Ramsay and Walder have been the only two fully satisfying deaths for me because their end came at the hands of the characters that greatly suffered from them.
I can understand why some people don't like that Cersei died in the manner that she did and I too feel a level of dissatisfaction, but for me its a similar "dissatisfaction" to that of Joffrey I guess.
Now the execution isn’t perfect, and I’m not attempting to defend the show in its entirety. But the negativity I see is either because the story hasn’t worked out the way people predicted/wanted (it’s a tragedy, not a fairytale) or because they’ve imposed some feminist hero status on Dany, which was always nonsense.
You're right, that is nonsense, to think and claim that those are the reasons people are criticizing the show now.
I can assure you that I have had conversations about a ‘white male’ ending up on the throne today being why some people are annoyed, in particular two friends. It can also be seen on Twitter, though I have no intention of engaging in that conversation there.
I have yet to see a coherent argument against the fact of Dany’s actions, or the fact that Cersei didn’t die the way people expected, but it tends to boil down to ‘she wouldn’t do that’, which as I said in my post, I disagree with. That’s it.
It’s rushed, there have been some huge jumps due to the shortened series and I would happily have seen things take place over another two series. I agree with criticism on that front, and several others.
My reaction watching these youtube reaction videos of the hardcore Dany stans getting irrationally angry at what they are seeing. Finally some real emotion from you people.
So good! Man that dude was truly undead. He went full-on Lurtz from LOTR with that direct run-through in his abdomen. Even the shot through his eye out the skull didn't do anything. He was trying to pull that out too and keep going. Shit, man.
I understand the griping about sloppy pacing, dialogue that is often far below GRRM standards, and unconvincing character arcs. But for some of us, the cinematic beauty of The Bells [as with The Long Night] makes up for a lot - the direction, the cinematography, the editing are all first-rate. The sheer horror of the last half hour, as seen by us through Arya's eyes, is very effective. And the actors help a lot too. I expect the final episode will not be all plot/action and will attempt to get us all where we need to go, emotionally. Unlike Varys, I hope I'm right.
Agree with everything you wrote here. I watch Little Finger's death on repeat once every few months, that was fantastic. Cersei's death was extremely underwhelming and unfit for a villain that good.
She dies with her golden twin brother in her arms, while a reworked version of "The Rains of Castamere" plays in the background. That's poetic.
After sleeping in on this episode I actually think it's one of the best ever that the show had to offer . I don't have any problem at all with anything that happened. I really wanted to see Jaime kill Cersei but their arc makes sense to me . The cleganebowl was awesome and actually gave me goosebumps when sandor jumped to his death , Dany going mad makes sense to me . And no ARON it doesn't bother me that Euron washed up on the shore to find Jaime waiting for him , especially not after I had to overlook the atrocity that was last seasons beyond the wall episode where gendry had to run to east watch, send a Raven , wait for the Raven to get to Dany and for her to fly north in like half a day .
I’m going to put myself through this episode one more time for the sake of finding more to like in it.
I honestly have no idea why Jamie was a prisoner. He was already on the good side so why capture him at all? Was it just lack of trust or to push Tyrion to the final treason?
Cersei was such a great character but this season she’s had about 10 lines? I mean Lena acts the shit out of her emotions and it’s great, but I just feel everyone has become shadows of their former characters. So much so that you can’t even care about them. When the building fell on The two of them I just shrugged. Sigh.
I guess the last episode will be our final hopes being dashed. At this point I almost expect Dany to live so they can just screw the fans one more time
The reason Jaime was captured was because he was trying to get back into Kings Landing to get to Cersei. Why wouldn't they stop him from doing that. Yes they fought along side him at Winterfell but if he's going back to join the enemy why would they just let him stroll through. If you have an issue with anything it should be why would Jaime knowingly try to go through the armies instead of around them to get back to Kings Landing. Even so I have zero issues with that part of the episode.
So instead of admitting that more people enjoyed the episode you just invalidate the opinions of those who enjoyed it? I can't really have a discussion with you, because I could say the same about your negative opinions and it's just circular. You think that the hatred on reddit is the majority despite that it's an incredibly small percentage of the viewership and the most emotionally invested, and anything else pointing otherwise is just "show apologists."
You aren't going to get 100 million viewers to tell you that they thought an episode was good, because the vast majority of them don't care enough to do that. Many more probably do that on facebook comments sections than anywhere else from what I've seen, but that's still not going to be a high percentage.
So, agree to disagree I guess.
Agree to disagree, sure. My simplest argument remains: you can't go around claiming "MOST" "AVERAGE" fans like the episode or season or whatever when you've got no evidence for that claim. "Admit more people enjoyed it..." Lmao how have you proven that?
ETA: And yes, it is absolutely and only my opinion that there is a vocal contingent of apologists. There are also some people who genuinely think this is still good. I think that's hilarious but I don't really care, until they start flooding these forums with their bullshit like: "Fuck Jim and Aron for complaining," "people just don't like it bc it doesn't match their theories," "people are nitpicking," "people are complaining because they didn't want [female character] to have their moment" etc. There's a lot of that going on and it's tiresome to read through.
I loved the episode. I agree the Euron bit was a bit too tidy, but they had to end him somehow and he did get blown off the ship. As for Jaime and Cersei, don't ever buy into a GRRM prophecy! Particularly in the books, it's how he subverts his stories - he makes 75% of the prophecy come true only to hoodwink you at the end. Rather, Jaime did what he always wanted - die with Cersei in his arms. Fitting. Dany did exactly what I thought she would do - destroy King's Landing. It is basically her Harrenhall. For her whole life she was told that the people of Westeros would love her, they would rally to her, and they would raise her banners when they saw her dragons. Instead, they showed nothing but distrust and anger. Even fighting the Army of the Dead did not give her any bonus points with those of Westeros (except improved reputation among the North). She spends her entire character arc looking for acceptance and reverence. When she feels betrayed or mocked, she responds with violence. Astapur, Vaes Dothrak, Mereen, the Tarleys. She is essentially alone (particularly after Jon rebukes her). Unlike Essos where abolishing slavery gets you immediate devotion from the people, Westeros doesn't have a simple solution. Most people don't care who is on the throne. So she does what Aegon did 300 years earlier -> She demands people bend the knee or she destroys them. Her real throne is now Dragonstone if she ever makes it out of the finale (unlikely IMO). Ironically, unlike Aegon, she has Dorne backing her.
I'd be willing to bet that Varys got some letters out before he was killed. I would assume one of those letters would have been to Dorne. Also if they hear the real "truth" about what happened in Kings Landing I don't think the Dornish will back her.
Can we start a shoulda list? Seems like many were upset because they had a big bag of built up, pre-conceived shoulda's that they brought in with them when they watched the episode.
So "Volanqar" means "younger sibling" right? And Dany T was the younger sister of Rhaegar and Viserys right? And Dany T buried Cersei in her Red Keep by blowing up the whole motherfucker right? Seems to me the Valonqar Prophecy was not violated but fulfilled. There were many that thought it shoulda been Jaime or shoulda been Tyrion, or with the gender-neutral Valyrian is coulda and shoulda been Arya.
This episode was definitely on the top 5 of all time. After Danny endured the betrayal of Varius and Tryrion and then to have John reject her, the tennsion shot up 10 fold. The clear moment of Danny realizing that she could not count on her failed advisors and that she could only count on herself and those still loyal to her, was Epic. The Breaker of Chains needs to go ahead and clear out all threats against her reign, so Sansa should be worried as should John "Run for it" Snow. I am looking forward to the rewatch tonight.
This episode was definitely on the top 5 of all time. After Danny endured the betrayal of Varius and Tryrion and then to have John reject her, the tennsion shot up 10 fold. The clear moment of Danny realizing that she could not count on her failed advisors and that she could only count on herself and those still loyal to her, was Epic. The Breaker of Chains needs to go ahead and clear out all threats against her reign, so Sansa should be worried as should John "Run for it" Snow. I am looking forward to the rewatch tonight.
You're just an apologist, Hunter. Like the majority of posters in this thread, who are actually the minority or something.
That doesnt mean that it's not a well earned character turn that has been established for multiple seasons.
She has done everything that she said she would albeit not in the way people might have expected (the boys included). She was told to be the dragon by Olena 2 or 3 years ago, she could have done this then and it would be as earned as it was now. The shows own prophecy that was shown to her by the warlocks showed her walking through a destroyed city with ash falling. She's burned prisoners of war, fed her rivals to dragons, and threatened more advisors than shes drunk glasses of wine. Also, she's never faced real rejection before and when you pile on the death of two dragons, her surrogate father figure, best friend and the rejection of a lover she snapped. It happens. They even made a movie with similar themes, falling down.
Her treasonous advisors have been failing her for the last 2 seasons, she would be a fool to listen to them any more.
Can we start a shoulda list? Seems like many were upset because they had a big bag of built up, pre-conceived shoulda's that they brought in with them when they watched the episode.
So "Volanqar" means "younger sibling" right? And Dany T was the younger sister of Rhaegar and Viserys right? And Dany T buried Cersei in her Red Keep by blowing up the whole motherfucker right? Seems to me the Valonqar Prophecy was not violated but fulfilled. There were many that thought it shoulda been Jaime or shoulda been Tyrion, or with the gender-neutral Valyrian is coulda and shoulda been Arya.
I think the prophecy specifically said the Valonqar would wrap their hands around Cersei's neck and that she would suffocate.
I suppose Jaime did put his hand on her neck but in a non threatening manner and perhaps she suffocated under the rubble. So it could've still been fulfilled just not in the way Cersei interpreted it.
So glad that the woodswitch in the show didn't mention the dumb Valonqar prophecy like she does in the books. It's so open for interpretations that it makes it pointless as a prophecy.
Comments
I have only my self to blame.
What I see here in these forums, in terms of the show's apologists, are some people who don't want to admit to themselves that their emotional investment in the show has been squandered. It's cognitive dissonance. I don't see much unequivocal love for this episode, or the final season in general at this point. I see a lot of "Yeah, there were definitely issues with HOW they did it, but I still really like it I swear!" And whether we're talking about this forum, redditt, twitter, facebook, or christianmingle, those people are in the minority. Most people are coming to terms with the fact that the showrunners are fumbling this motherfucker over the goalline.
Sure - 40,000 is a lot of votes, but this is also the most-watched show in history. If you normalize for audience size, how unprecedented is it really? If you don't answer that question when you present a number like this, you're inviting others to deflect your point by assuming a closer look will invalidate it.
You may not be able to anticipate every argument against your position, but if try to consider and address them it goes a long way to getting the discussion past first principles.
You aren't going to get 100 million viewers to tell you that they thought an episode was good, because the vast majority of them don't care enough to do that. Many more probably do that on facebook comments sections than anywhere else from what I've seen, but that's still not going to be a high percentage.
So, agree to disagree I guess.
If she was that arsed about Jon being the people's choice, she had a few options:
It wasn't Danny who went crazy when the bells went off, it was Drogon. She spent the last 45 minutes of the episode trying to get him to stop. We never saw her again other than a tiny dot in the distance so must have been what happened...
I can understand why some people don't like that Cersei died in the manner that she did and I too feel a level of dissatisfaction, but for me its a similar "dissatisfaction" to that of Joffrey I guess.
I have yet to see a coherent argument against the fact of Dany’s actions, or the fact that Cersei didn’t die the way people expected, but it tends to boil down to ‘she wouldn’t do that’, which as I said in my post, I disagree with. That’s it.
It’s rushed, there have been some huge jumps due to the shortened series and I would happily have seen things take place over another two series. I agree with criticism on that front, and several others.
"SHE WOULD NEVER DO THIS IN THE PAST!"
ME:
Found this on reddit:
Cleganebowl All Scenes - The Hound vs The Mountain *ALL SCENES - NO FILLER*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjRcTAfdnmUSo good! Man that dude was truly undead. He went full-on Lurtz from LOTR with that direct run-through in his abdomen. Even the shot through his eye out the skull didn't do anything. He was trying to pull that out too and keep going. Shit, man.
ETA: And yes, it is absolutely and only my opinion that there is a vocal contingent of apologists. There are also some people who genuinely think this is still good. I think that's hilarious but I don't really care, until they start flooding these forums with their bullshit like: "Fuck Jim and Aron for complaining," "people just don't like it bc it doesn't match their theories," "people are nitpicking," "people are complaining because they didn't want [female character] to have their moment" etc. There's a lot of that going on and it's tiresome to read through.
So "Volanqar" means "younger sibling" right? And Dany T was the younger sister of Rhaegar and Viserys right? And Dany T buried Cersei in her Red Keep by blowing up the whole motherfucker right? Seems to me the Valonqar Prophecy was not violated but fulfilled. There were many that thought it shoulda been Jaime or shoulda been Tyrion, or with the gender-neutral Valyrian is coulda and shoulda been Arya.
The Breaker of Chains needs to go ahead and clear out all threats against her reign, so Sansa should be worried as should John "Run for it" Snow.
I am looking forward to the rewatch tonight.
Her treasonous advisors have been failing her for the last 2 seasons, she would be a fool to listen to them any more.
I suppose Jaime did put his hand on her neck but in a non threatening manner and perhaps she suffocated under the rubble. So it could've still been fulfilled just not in the way Cersei interpreted it.