DANY'S TURN WAS EARNED ON THE SHOW
Love Bald Move. Smartest and most listen-able commentary out there.
This episode:
As far as the story being told, Jon's secret lineage is less about Jon: it's about putting Dany in the utterly tragic position that she can't burn the very last thing in her way.
We all knew that the revelation of R + L = J had to lead to an impossible outcome for someone. And this is what that looks like.
We knew it. Were we hoping it would magically resolve some other way?
I've never read the books, but I assume Spring really is just a dream.
So for me, the show put everything on screen they needed to destroy a person. And they did.
[Also, calling bullshit on the notion that Jamie somehow 'went back' on his character development. His final humane act of compassion in a long journey of development was to be with the person he loved that needed him as the world she created finally crashed down on her. He fought for the living. He helped an outsider become fully actualized, and then he went to be with the person he loved most in the world when she was going to die, monstrous as she was. Selfless streak uninterrupted, IMO]
But, guys, the reaction in the instant-take was... sensational, at best. It certainly didn't sound like the good-faith response from someone who actually committed to 'fan-bankruptcy.' For all the bombastic rhetoric shelled at the D&Ds, it seems like the linchpin is the "earned-ness" of the moment Dany decided to lay waste to King's Landing.
After watching a second time, I'm inclined to argue that, the turn was not just earned, but sharply-constructed. This feels too long-winded for paragraph form, so here's my scorecard for the show not the books:
After watching a second time, I'm inclined to argue that, the turn was not just earned, but sharply-constructed. This feels too long-winded for paragraph form, so here's my scorecard for the show not the books:
Throughout the series:
- since Visery's golden crown and Kahl Drogo's death (and maybe before): Dany has founded her identity around being the 'rightful' heir to the Iron Throne.
- her claim was only made possible by the death of Viserys. - she has shown little-to-no hesitation or remorse for absolute and fiery violence against anyone who would stand in her way to that goal. For all her apparent growth, this was demonstrated well through Season 7, most notably burning the Tarleys, justified or not.
- She develops as a leader and ruler, with many positive moments of growth and understanding, but every 'breaking of chains' or liberating of persecuted people could be considered a consequence of an effort to consolidate power.
- critically, she falls in love with Jon.
This season:
- Revelation of R + L = J confronts and negates her claim to the throne.
- she builds her story of entitlement to others, and to herself
- she grows to distrust Tyrion.
- loses a 'child'- critically, she falls in love with Jon.
This season:
- Revelation of R + L = J confronts and negates her claim to the throne.
- Jon would abdicate, but she witnesses, repeatedly, that in Westeros, the people are drawn to Jon, and would choose and follow him, given the choice. There is no shortage of scenes or dialogue between Varys and Tyrion to reinforce this.
- impetuous decision-making during the Long Night
- loses majority of her military assets
- loses majority of her military assets
- She loses most of her most loyal confidants
- Arya kills the Night King, confirming that Dany is not Azor Ahai (if she was ever aware of that)
- Arya kills the Night King, confirming that Dany is not Azor Ahai (if she was ever aware of that)
- Dany continues to grow extremely insecure
- begs, begs Jon to not tell anyone that he is heir to the throne. The most vulnerable—pitiful, even—we've seen her on the show.
- loses her fleet
- begs, begs Jon to not tell anyone that he is heir to the throne. The most vulnerable—pitiful, even—we've seen her on the show.
- loses her fleet
- lost another child/dragon
- Her best friend's head gets chopped off right in front of her by the person who represents everything that was taken from her. I can't be sure what the psychological effect of this would be on a person, but it seems... profoundly significant, despite our desensitization to violent deaths as show watchers.
- Her best friend's head gets chopped off right in front of her by the person who represents everything that was taken from her. I can't be sure what the psychological effect of this would be on a person, but it seems... profoundly significant, despite our desensitization to violent deaths as show watchers.
This episode:
- learns of betrayal by Jon, his family, Tyrion, and Varys.
- Varys, critically, sends out ravens with the news that Jon is the true heir to the throne. For the realm.
- Varys stands by his commitment—and fear—to have done it for the realm, and is immediately torched by Dany for it.
- Dany makes a final plea for Jon's love, and is denied. Jon cannot.
Ok, so?
At this point, it's already over for Dany. She cannot and will not become the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. The instant Jon denies her, accepting that they will never marry—her last path to the throne—and knowing his stronger, true claim to the throne is already out, thanks to Varys, she knows he will be the King the people demand. The rightful ruler. If he were Viserys, or some similar kind of asshole, she could rationalize killing him. But he is not. He is a great leader, and she knows it, and critically, she loves him.
- Varys, critically, sends out ravens with the news that Jon is the true heir to the throne. For the realm.
- Varys stands by his commitment—and fear—to have done it for the realm, and is immediately torched by Dany for it.
- Dany makes a final plea for Jon's love, and is denied. Jon cannot.
Ok, so?
At this point, it's already over for Dany. She cannot and will not become the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. The instant Jon denies her, accepting that they will never marry—her last path to the throne—and knowing his stronger, true claim to the throne is already out, thanks to Varys, she knows he will be the King the people demand. The rightful ruler. If he were Viserys, or some similar kind of asshole, she could rationalize killing him. But he is not. He is a great leader, and she knows it, and critically, she loves him.
The thing she's constructed her fundamental life's purpose around, this entire journey, is over. Not up on the ramparts. In this room. Her identity as a person is unraveled and destroyed.
As viewers, we might've looked at the castle as if it's the reward at the end of this journey, but in this moment—with The Bells ringing to signify that the people do have the power to choose their leader (the idea that Tyrion has basically embodied his entire tenure with her)—she already knows she will not have it. The people that betrayed her will. The man she can't be with will. And these people will be the ones that ensure it.
As viewers, we might've looked at the castle as if it's the reward at the end of this journey, but in this moment—with The Bells ringing to signify that the people do have the power to choose their leader (the idea that Tyrion has basically embodied his entire tenure with her)—she already knows she will not have it. The people that betrayed her will. The man she can't be with will. And these people will be the ones that ensure it.
As far as the story being told, Jon's secret lineage is less about Jon: it's about putting Dany in the utterly tragic position that she can't burn the very last thing in her way.
We all knew that the revelation of R + L = J had to lead to an impossible outcome for someone. And this is what that looks like.
We knew it. Were we hoping it would magically resolve some other way?
I've never read the books, but I assume Spring really is just a dream.
So for me, the show put everything on screen they needed to destroy a person. And they did.
[Also, calling bullshit on the notion that Jamie somehow 'went back' on his character development. His final humane act of compassion in a long journey of development was to be with the person he loved that needed him as the world she created finally crashed down on her. He fought for the living. He helped an outsider become fully actualized, and then he went to be with the person he loved most in the world when she was going to die, monstrous as she was. Selfless streak uninterrupted, IMO]
and 6 others.
Comments
It's not enough that she has character flaws. For us to accept this transition in her character, these flaws have to be triggered by something identifiable in the situation.
We have seen nothing to suggest that Dany would kill people who have surrendered. We have seen a lot that suggests she's motivated by a desire to protect the vulnerable and enforce justice for crimes against humanity.
If that is alll out the window now, we deserve to know why. Jon's claim on the throne isn't enough.
The previous episode takes extra care to remind us of this clearly: She flew in and saved Tormund and the rest, and yet Tormund goes on and on about how Jon's the crazy leader who would climb on top of a dragon. That scene is really important.
My feeling is that in this 6-episode season, it came fast, so feels unearned. And I will absolutely concede that it feels rushed. But if the last 3 seasons were watched in succession like one longer movie, without concern for the 60-80 minute sub-arcs with a week (or year) between them, it will read much straighter.
I don't disagree that the show clearly demonstrated that The North prefers Jon. Nothing about those with Cersei though. And you say she likes to destroy those who stand in her way, but she doesn't destroy Jon. If she actually killed Jon and then the city, that connects it all for me. She never once even looks for Jon after the battle begins. She doesn't once try to glance at him to see where he is during the battle. And very literally no one stands in her way because she's on a dragon and can fly over them. Literally there is nothing blocking her. No one during the battle even gives a hint they care at all about Jon, and in fact they all defy anything he does to try to stop anyone to the point that he had to slay a Northerner or let a woman get raped. That is what was literally shown in the show. A very clear demonstration that absolutely no one was listening to Jon. Varys denies Jon's denials for the throne, Dany rejects his rejection and pleas, and Grey Worm and the rest ignore his commands. Jon is shown dumbstruck at how powerless he actually is.
If they just gave me that one small step, I'm totally on board.
Time and time again she has shown that she doesn't know how to deal with people who do not fawn all over her.
In the moment of the bells Emilia Clarke has all of this unresolved grief, loss and rejection written large all over her face. She snaps. Fuck them all. Let it be fear.
Thought they did a great job making her look like her dad too.
Since we’ve seen Dany on screen, she has been someone that has received huge amounts of attention. She’s been pursued relentlessly. Drogo, Jorah, Ducksauce, both Dario and Duhrio, Hizar, etc. But if Jon’s rejection is a contributing reason for shitty excuse for her to go crazy. And her people haven’t always loved her.
Dany has had a cold violent streak in her since S1. But she’s also always defended disadvantaged people. For us to accept this heel turn, we have to accept something caused the former to outweigh the latter. The show gives us:
1. The death of her closest family and friends
2. A decision to rule by fear bc the people won’t love her
3. Genetic madness due to incest
4. Jon’s rejection/betrayal plus the betrayal of Tyrion, Varys, and Sansa
5. “You’re not you when your hungry”
Maybe the problem is the show is giving us all these reasons, instead of building on one or two reasons.
I would never begrudge someone not being interested in Game of Thrones. Even as one of the biggest shows ever it's a pretty niche genre. But the fact that people rag on something they're ignorant of is confusing to me, and I understand why it's frustrating for fans.
That said, the fact that there seems to be a need to react to any criticism is pretty on point. I don't see many people being dragged for simply saying they liked what they saw.
Im a Jon guy but I love Danys character. For me I just felt punched in the gut with the decision she made last episode. I do think they earned it and I thought this was a possibility based on what they showed.
My wife loves Danys character. For her this past episode was a betrayal of the character she knows and I think she right to. If Danys your favorite character then how can you NOT feel that way?
I think the biggest problem is that after season 6 or whenever it was the double D’s decided “we’re done in 13 episodes”. I think the rushed nature is why some people are dissatisfied with what felt like a WWF heel-turn for Danys character.
If your a Jon fan like me you still have hope going into the finale. Dany fans don’t have that now.
Lets all just give our fellow fans (Jim and Aron included) time to process what they saw. I wasn’t sure if I liked the finale of the leftovers until I looked back 6 months later and thought to myself “that was perfect”.
Genocidal maniacs aren't genocidal maniacs until they commit that first act of genocide. Before that, it's a lead up of smaller bad things until they commit their most heinous acts that they are remembered for. Same with Dany. She has done many bad things in the past, even to presumably innocent people who did not deserve it. And once her mind was really broken down by all of the trauma from loss and betrayal, those smaller bad things were amped up to this atrocity.
I don't begrudge the show for the Red Wedding not being quite as good as the books, because I realize that they cannot literally be inside of Catelyn's brain during the Red Wedding, like she's fucking Kevin Arnold in the Wonder Years.
In the scene where he told her about R+L, her reaction was about her claim instead of what it meant about them being together (to Jon's clear consternation), and when Jon told her he needed to tell his family, she begged out of preservation of her own claim.
A little more work recently on the Missandei/Danny relationship, a little more work on the Jon/Danny relationship and why it suddenly became cold, a little more work on her feeling the betrayal of the Westerosi, all would have helped me to get there so much.
Also, critically, did Varys send ravens and was she aware of that? I don’t recall them showing that he actually did get any out, or that she was aware. That would have helped me a lot along with a brief Danny reaction to the news. If they did show it, I missed it, so it must have been terribly brief.
My basic argument above is that at this point, the show established that Dany's fundamental sense of self over 7 seasons (as the rightful heir and claimant to the throne) was stripped away. In my opinion, the destruction of personal identity and denial of personal destiny is as profound character transition as there comes.
This is how a character 'snaps,' and the result is that whatever restrained her from violence previously was shed in this transition, leaving her changed, and, to your point, able to commit something more heinous than the previous, hopeful, restrained Dany ever would have.
D&D miss simple things like that and present things that are wrong as if it's fact. But now it's Canon that Varys supported Jon because he thought Jon had the better claim because he was a guy and not because of the order of succession. The conclusion makes sense, but not the route he took to get to the conclusion.
A similar thing is happening to a lot of people here with Dany. There are quite a lot of people that are fine with the ultimate destination that Dany reached, but there is a key piece missing or was presented wrong (in their/my view) by D&D. The conversation is making perfect sense, we sense the mood and read the body language, and then D&D has metaphorical Varys saying the one line that halts everything the moment before Dany decides to burn everything.
To say she snapped completely because the small folk didn't love her is, I understand, what the show wants you to buy into. I don't. It's a pretty drastic departure of character. Dany burning a bunch of surrendering soldiers? That's earned. That's in character. Dany burning a bunch of babies. That's "shocking." That's writing for the social media reaction, not being true to the character.
Rather fear inducing, not as much of a character leap. People and politicians
Then even after she shows mercy to the common folk, areas of King’s Landing and Westeros continue to be truculent towards her - now she starts eliminating people and exterminating resistant population centers as examples.
That’s better to me thank flipping the switch on instant atrocity after everyone surrenders.
Like I said in a different thread. I came to understanding for Dany getting there, but it required a 20 minute conversation with my wife about the nature of rage to do it. Emilia Clark did her part (and did it incredibly well), but they didn't sell the moment for the result. You can call it holding the audience's hand, but look at the outcome. This was not the desired effect, having the moment be this polarizing. I get that there is a percentage of the fan base that was just going to hate this, but in a larger view I just think did a terrible job of articulating the moment.
One of the critics I follow on Twitter (wish I could recall who) said something on this topic a few weeks ago that stuck with me, and I think much of the response comes down to this: "Liking something makes you vulnerable. Disliking something doesn't."
I haven't enjoyed these last three episodes, and it kind of sucks, but I take it pretty lightly. I laugh at the jokes and keep it moving. But for the people that have enjoyed them and are still invested in the end of this show, I can see why certain responses would feel like a buzzkill. That said, it's so easy to disengage with content you don't like. Turn off the podcast. Get off of Reddit. There are enough fans of this show that we can probably all find someone who agrees with us.