****SPOILERS**** Justification For Haters

edited May 2019 in Game of Thrones
A.Ron and Jim keep making arguments and making references to how they would have liked it to go for Dany’s ultimate decision. 

They would rather they rewrite HER story specifically (for instance, “why can’t she just lose Rhaegal during the battle?” etc). Arguing this negates to a degree, the argument that the other, unforgivable “shoot-footings” (Euron?!!) are “what really hurt it.”

Here’s the thing: It seems like many are trying to justify Dany’s decision, like  the Rhaegal example—-these arguments reveal a necessity for Dany (and by extension, themselves) to be able to justify the decision (in the heat of the moment).

Instead of having simply made the only decision she could to guarantee her victory. 

Essentially, I think she riled herself up so badly, alone, Whithered away because Varys has been trying to poison  her, her hand is incompetent, and her nephew/lover is also the champion of the ungrateful westerosi.

After she utterly dominates Cersei ‘s army, just like In Winterfell where her dragon was sacrificed, and she saved these fuckers’ lives, and nobody gives a damn-—-in fact, “we want Jon,”

Then another dragon dead, best friend dead, Varys is trying to kill you, your hand is dumb, all Lannister’s go back to family, no one here will ever love you. And even if you win, someone will just kill you in your sleep.

She has no assurances this moment isn’t her only chance to make her move. To incriminate them all. To make them think twice before they think she trusts them. 

She needs to make them all fear her. 

Unless they had carried her through the streets. Unless  they had cheered her name and crowd surfed her into the iron throne—-that’s the only surrender she could accept, and she probably convinced herself if that doesn’t happen, fuck it. 

Shes down to her last dragon and thats it. She went into this saying, either “they all die, or I do.” 

The siege  went too well, as it would have been easier to justify KL’s razing had it been more difficult.

The result of the siege didn’t do well enough.

it didn’t give her what she wanted. She still get empty because they took that too. Her own triumph made her feel nothing. They took that too.

So She took it back. And I read ALL of that on Clarke’s face. 

She premeditated it, but any person who does that has to make the decision one more time. 

She didn’t want to do it this way. She liked being loved, but I think it all tracks. She might regret it, but she is a fucking conquerer, and she made her decision every time she couldn’t guarantee her throne AND her own majesty. 

This story is and always was “she’s been the villain the whole time.”

She doesn’t have to justify it. Fuck you. She’s the bad guy. It sucks, but that’s what they actually do most of the time. The worst ones start with the best intentions. They just assume praise comes with the work. Then, when they lose it all, or almost do? They explode. And they have means. And the ones that are smart enough.... They make bad choices and justify it, instead of holding themselves accountable. 

So I just say she is a fantastic villain, a fantastic fucking villain, who finished made her father’s dreams come true.

 Dude, Lena Heady’s awesome villain, Cersei  Lannister, was  taken OUT in Dany’s villain DEBIT move, out-terribling her in one fell swoop. 

Meanwhile, the boys are just dumb jocks and clever nerds—some honorable, some not, all of them ultimately controlled by women.

I like it the more I think about it. 

Great villain. 


  • Amazing take...COULD NOT AGREE MORE
  • edited May 2019

    My hope now is for Jon to just ask Dany if he can  go North, the real north.

    He died there. He doesn’t want any of this. He’ll essentially agree to take the black to passing Dany. 

    Then Dany kills him anyway. 

    Cant wait.
  • Han shoots first justification:
    That situation isn’t totally comparable. It’s no longer that situation.

    The story is this:
     Han knocks Greedo’s gun into his own hands, getting the drop on him and negating his ability to hurt him. But this moment has been your life long goal, sending you cosmic gifts and signs that you are the chosen one, and to do so, you have to get Greedo’s gun, and get the drop on him. And then you do it. It costs you your children, but you did it.

    And the entire bar not only doesn’t care. They say they’ll  kill you. That you’re evil. 

    So then Han cold-blooded kills him and every fucker in the bar. Only way he gets what he wants. 
  • Haven’t watched Star Wars since I was a kid...is that what this is from? I really need to catch back up lol
  • I think you're filling in a lot of pieces in your head that aren't on the screen... You say that you read ALL that on Clarke's face? I'm impressed...let's run through a couple points. 

    "Instead of having simply made the only decision she could to guarantee her victory. " 
    - simply not true...lots of other decisions could have "guaranteed" her victory (e.g. burn down Red Keep, kill Jon, boom best claim to the iron throne again). Also, you assume that her chosen approach guarantee's victory...she doesn't know if she killed Jon so someone still has a better claim than she does.  

    "Essentially, I think she riled herself up so badly, alone..."
    - using I think is indicative that you don't know, meaning that this wasn't actually on screen and that this is just head cannon.

    "After she utterly dominates Cersei ‘s army, just like In Winterfell where her dragon was sacrificed, and she saved these fuckers’ lives, and nobody gives a damn-—-in fact, “we want Jon,” " 
    - How does she know that's how the people feel? She just hears the bells and people shouting for the bells...no one is chanting "RING THE BELLS WE WANT JON"...so again you're creating head cannon. 

    "Shes down to her last dragon and thats it. She went into this saying, either “they all die, or I do.” " 
    - Oh really? When did she say this? Oh right, she didn't...head cannon...

    "This story is and always was “she’s been the villain the whole time.” "
    - This just isn't true. She was a villain when she was sold off to Khal Drogo? She was a villain when she was trying to free the slaves and rule justly? She obviously had some villain like impulses (e.g. burning that one master in the dungeon), but it's really just not an accurate read to say she's been a villain the whole time. 

    Honestly, we could debate every line I've mentioned above and more from your original post for hours, but that's probably not a fruitful use of our time so I'll say this. I'm happy that you and a lot of other fans really enjoyed this episode! I genuinely feel good that some people are happy. Unfortunately for me, and a lot of other people, this just didn't do it. The bullet points for most of the character arcs are good and fine, but there are just critical gaps between them that they didn't fill in. 
  • AnominalAnominal San Francisco Bay Area
    I agree. It's a lot of head canon. It would have been awesome if that was on screen to make it all make sense. I would have loved if she saw the surrender and interpreted it as everyone surrendering to Jon. But we didn't get that. We saw rooftops and the Red Keep. We saw her face in thought. We heard people chanting to ring the bells because they did fear her. She already got it. She won. She earned their fear already. If she stops there no one is going to think she's a pushover. "Psssh! She actually stopped killing people after we surrendered! I can't follow or worship anyone who does that! How weak of her!"

    These explanations with all this added info make for a better episode. I agree with a lot of these suggestions. But I disagree that any of that stuff was on screen. All this added head canon makes it feel like Dany is your significant other who dreamt you cheated on her, and then when she wakes up she's mad at you in real life and you don't know why.

  • They told the story, albeit with technical flaws and problems diminishing the suspension of disbelief, which justifiably undercut the believability of the moment. I’m glad I’m able to appreciate it. I’m sorry for those who can’t. 

    Anikan Skywalker this ain’t because with Dany, we didn’t know this turn was the story the whole time. Anikan’s story is unbelievable and weak for many reasons, but the big difference is that we can’t ever be sure of Dany’s outcome until it happens, and we had far more than just people saying they were worried about the character, like with Anakin.

     With AS, we knew the whole time they would go evil, and very little reason to see why. 

    With Dany, I listed the reasons she feels trapped. Again, I attest it’s all on the screen and people admit enough. But they finish its worth by calling it foreshadowing and not characterization. And I disagree, but I’ve discussed it enough. 

    I get why people dislike it. I just see that those doing so seem to want a better justification for an evil act, but truly evil acts aren’t justifiable. They are justified by the villain,  and those who view them as the villain find them unjustifiable. 

    But there are problems. I get it.

    But it’s a shame to let it ruin the 70+ hours of great television contained within it. 

    Not unjustified. Just a shame. I feel for you. 
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