805 - The Bells

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Comments

  • Trying to stick to the show, as I'm 5 min into a 2+ hr podcast that is at least starting out as reasonable. It's just too late in the night to listen for that long. If only I could quit my job and become a professional forum poster.

    I did a rewatch today. I think it's a mixed bag of an episode, which is unfortunate for the penultimate episode of one of the best shows of all time. On second watch, there was definitely more good moments than I remembered. But the flaws were also more obvious.
    • That scene with Jamie and Tyrion might be my favorite scene for those two actors. 
    • The final scene with Arya and the Hound again shows how awesome Maise is. One second she's a badass assassin, and then it looks like she's the same girl who snuck out of KL. 
    • I did miss the poison attempts by Varys the first time, and I wonder if something she may have occasionally consumed was contributing to her madness. 
    • I can see the parallels with the Red Wedding that Aron mentions, because you may not seeing coming, but in retrospect, it is all there. 
    • The dragon stuff is even better on second watch. I now get that the concussive force is maybe akin to an explosion going off inside the dragon, where the force is funneled out...propels the fire with a shockwave. Happens with a lot of gas explosions. 
    • The wildfire is still a nice touch. 
    • Clegane Bowl is well done. 
    • The stuff with Jamie and Cersei tracks 100%, even though I'm disappointed bc he threw away any redemption shot. But, as he said, he's done unforgivable things. He could not be a hero by killing the pregnant mother of his child. And it fits narratively that they die together. Otherwise, he'd have had to stay with Brienne and do nothing, which would be boring.
    The downside is that the flaws are there. The Euron scenes almost breaks the rest of the episode because it is absurd that he survives and washes up there. It feels lazy. No one should try to defend it. Some of the Arya stuff felt a bit melodramatic, too. I still think it's a C episode, when the D's should needed to put up an A+ to A-. Next week could get ugly because there's so much to resolve and no time to do it.


    gjames80
  • Gan said:
    Most people on the internet seem to dislike this episode, it's actually the lowest rated Game of Thrones episode in the entire series history with 49 percent on RT, though admittedly that is anecdotal. Also here is a video meme that I think still think clearly demonstrates some of the problems fans have with the writing/story telling in the past few seasons.


    Be warned it does contain small, short clips of "Inside the Episode" interviews for aired episodes. It doesn't contain any actual spoilers as far as I know, but if it's not allowed please remove
    That video is great. Pretty good summary of some of the crazy writing. 
  • Like, I don't think the auntie thing is the hang up for Jon rejecting her affections...I think it's that he feels so conflicted about whether she's a terrible person already, she's threatening his family, and he feels powerless to stop her.
    Wouldn't it be nice of the show actually had Jon say why he was having an issue? Rather than letting million of viewers guess? Nah, that would have taken a whole nother episode for Jon to articulate his opinion on the matter. 
    bbordBloodyTacoAnominalrkcrawfdarthcaedus1138gjames80
  • Ben said:
    The nitpicking is infuriating. Honestly I think I’m done with this coverage from baldmove on game of thrones. It’s just bumming me out, how the two guys feel about the show is how I feel about them. Good luck everyone with the final episode. 
    Funny, I've never agreed more with just about every point they made in the podcast. I think they articulated some really good reasons why the episode didn't work for them. Sorry you didn't consider their points valid opinions. 
    bbordmajjam0770BloodyTacoAnominalSchluppken haledarthcaedus1138
  • CoryCory New Scotland
    MichaelG said:
    I liked it. 

    Its ok Jim and Aron didn’t.

    I’ll still listen bc I like Bald Move and don’t mind disagreement, even welcome it. 

    Everyone needs to relax and have a drink. 
    I'll take a Flaming Moe.


  • CapeGabe said:
    CapeGabe said:
    JoeAlba said:
    To me the bottom line is that Jim and ARon were both totally invested in Dany being this victorious heroine and when it didn’t turn out that way they had to trash the entire show.

    That makes zero sense. Why in the world would they be invested in Dany being victorious? Like others they seem to be a fan of a well crafted story which this season has not been even close to being. 
     Jim said in last weeks podcast that every scene Dany is in with someone it feels like she wants to burn them down and he made mention that that feels wrong but that he gets it from every scene she’s in.  

    That is contradictory logic in and of itself, because if that’s how she is every time then it can’t be wrong, it’s her nature and it’s the way they have written her for eight seasons

    Please notice I’m only bringing up the points the podcast has made in the past...I’m sorry but it’s the podcast that has made a U turn, not the show

    I just don't see where they have been invested in a Dany victory in the past. I never have got the feeling they were Team Dany. People seem to enjoy inventing head canon about other people's opinions and then it becomes the truth to them.
    I’m with you on that for sure! I can only speak for myself but my biggest confusion is last week they were fine with idea that Dany could go “mad” and now they are acting like they never said those things...but to your point Cape I totally agree, they always seemed more like Stannis and then Jon fans, I would put them more with Melisandre’s thinking to that end lol
    majjam0770
  • I’m with you on that for sure! I can only speak for myself but my biggest confusion is last week they were fine with idea that Dany could go “mad” and now they are acting like they never said those things.
    Maybe I'm misremembering, but I thought they've acknowledged this multiple times. The problem was in the execution.
    majjam0770BloodyTacoAnominalken haledarthcaedus1138DaveyMacgjames80
  • HatorianHatorian Dagobah
    edited May 2019
    I know this has been said by some others in this massive thread. But listening to the cast and the guys shitting on Jaime. 

    Maybe you guys were lucky. Maybe you never interacted with someone who had a toxic relationship that ended up ghosting you for them. 

    But to say it’s bullshit that Jaime would go back to Cersei and it ruins is character arc and it ruins the story they were telling is just not true. 

    Jaime is no different than millions of people who try to become better people but ultimately fall back into their love for someone who is abusive and toxic to them. It’s completely common to see people ruin and abandon great relationships just to go back to the person they love for no sane or legitimate reason. People do stupid things for love. And people ruin their lives for love. There is nothing about what Jaime did that is unreasonable or unbelievable . 

    Im Glad you guys haven’t experienced someone doing this to you. But to act like it doesn’t happen to people and it ruins the story is a bit too much. It most certainly happens and it sucks to see good people who have tried their best to help someone overcome a toxic relationship just to see them go back to it. 

    It’s actually a bit poetic that Jaime gave into this and it cost him is life. 
    majjam0770BenNaugustineCeciliaMFalconj0n1c4MurderbearawookieePreservedKillickAll the Chickensand 7 others.
  • edited May 2019
    Hatorian said:
    I know this has been said by some others in this massive thread. But listening to the cast and the guys shitting on Jaime. 

    Maybe you guys were lucky. Maybe you never interacted with someone who had a toxic relationship that ended up ghosting you for them. 

    But to say it’s bullshit that Jaime wouldn’t go back to Cersei and it ruins is character arc and it ruins the story they were telling is just not true. 

    Jaime is no different than millions of people who try to become better people but ultimately fall back into their love for someone who is abusive and toxic to them. It’s completely common to see people ruin and abandon great relationships just to go back to the person they love for no sane or legitimate reason. People do stupid things for love. And people ruin their lives for love. There is nothing about what Jaime did that is unreasonable or unbelievable . 

    Im Glad you guys haven’t experienced someone doing this to you. But to act like it doesn’t happen to people and it ruins the story is a bit too much. It most certainly happens and it sucks to see good people who have tried their best to help someone overcome a toxic relationship just to see them go back to it. 

    It’s actually a bit poetic that Jaime gave into this and it cost him is life. 
    Some character arcs are circles...if not most

    ”At the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time” -TS Elliot
    HatorianCeciliaMSanguinePenguinbudesigns
  • Hatorian said:
    I know this has been said by some others in this massive thread. But listening to the cast and the guys shitting on Jaime. 

    Maybe you guys were lucky. Maybe you never interacted with someone who had a toxic relationship that ended up ghosting you for them. 

    But to say it’s bullshit that Jaime wouldn’t go back to Cersei and it ruins is character arc and it ruins the story they were telling is just not true. 

    Jaime is no different than millions of people who try to become better people but ultimately fall back into their love for someone who is abusive and toxic to them. It’s completely common to see people ruin and abandon great relationships just to go back to the person they love for no sane or legitimate reason. People do stupid things for love. And people ruin their lives for love. There is nothing about what Jaime did that is unreasonable or unbelievable . 

    Im Glad you guys haven’t experienced someone doing this to you. But to act like it doesn’t happen to people and it ruins the story is a bit too much. It most certainly happens and it sucks to see good people who have tried their best to help someone overcome a toxic relationship just to see them go back to it. 

    It’s actually a bit poetic that Jaime gave into this and it cost him is life. 
    Yes, especially when it's your sister. 
    Hatoriangjames80
  • Welp. At least the episode wasn't dark.
    SanguinePenguingjames80
  • Some people continue to misconstrue the disappointment people have about Dany’s dissent into madness as wishing she didn’t go mad at all.
     I have no problem with Daenerys going mad. I have a problem with how they did it. Foreshadowing is not the same as character development. You can’t just have everyone around Dany talk about the Targaryen madness and then have her do cruel irrational things after building her up as someone who can be short tempered and willing to deny mercy to her enemies, but at the same time has a very strong sense of justice, is compassionate and kind and puts the people first always. One thing that annoys me a lot too about this version of the “Mad Queen” is that it’s so incredibly vague and shallow. Okay she’s mad which means in our modern medical terms that she has a mental disorder, but which one??
    Since Aerys and Viserys are based on characters in the books, their “madness” makes sense from a psychological point of view: King Aerys obviously was schizophrenic, he heard voices, confused reality and fantasy and thought if he burned everyone he’d turn into a dragon. I think Viserys being narcissistic speaks for itself (“I am the dragon! I want my crown!” selling his own sister to get an army etc). They could have let Dany be her father’s daughter and develop schizophrenia. In the books I believe it is quite possible that she becomes schizophrenic since in one of her most recent chapters she hears voices. But in the show, they didn’t go with that, so schizophrenia is off the table for show Dany. For show Dany, I could have imagined her “madness” to be choleric, meaning that she loses her temper when being (in her eyes) provoked and doing cruel and irrational things out of anger. I would have accepted to see her burn the city to the ground after Cersei had Missandei killed in front of her eyes. Releasing her anger without thinking in the most terrible manner. But that’s not what happened either. She just went nuts unprovoked and killed innocent people without even trying to go after the person she was really angry at. 
    gjames80
  • edited May 2019
    This show has always been about telling the truth about power.  About conquest.  About empire.  About colonialism.  About tyranny.

    In the beginning, we are treated to the story of a blonde-haired product of nobility and incest who believes it is his birth-right to wield power however he sees fit.  No matter how violent, petty, or impetuous his actions are, his grip on power is never questioned.  And in the pen-ultimate episode, we are treated to another blonde-haired product of incest who believes it is her birth-right to wield that same power as she sees fit, and without consequence.

    Yet, we somehow feel betrayed when we are told that same story the second time around.  Why?

    Well, in the first instance, the groundwork for despising this tyrant has already been laid.  We see Joffrey for what he is: A spoiled and vile little shit who's inherited his power through no action of his own.  We immediately identify this character as tyrannical.  He was not elected, he was not chosen, he did not earn his right to rule.  He was simply appointed.  He's the son of a former ruler who stole his seat.  We see his rule, his terrible actions, his authoritarian grip, and we understand intuitively the great crime that occurred against the people in order to secure his reign.  We see the crime that continues to occur every time his power goes unchecked.  This kind of monarchy and this level of absolute power, politically speaking, is the essence of conservatism.  Joffrey, the despicable little shit that he is, doesn't give a fuck about the common people even as they are starving outside the gates begging for bread.  All of us who recognize our complete powerlessness in this kind of system are conditioned to despise this.

    It is here where many of us depart, and begin to hope for an alternative form of rule.  What if we can find a better leader?  One who is a better person?  Surely, if we put a good person in power, they would use their influence to make the world better, no?

    Enter Daenerys.  After all, she freed the slaves! Nevermind the fact that she immediately enlisted those newly freed, nipple-less slaves into her army.  And let's just forget about the slave she publicly executed for killing his master and oppressor (nice touch, mhysa).  She's a good person!  She's just!  Surely she will lead with a softer touch, no?  And if she surrounds herself with smart and sound advisers, she'll do right by the people!  After all, even Tyrion Lannister tried his hand at diplomacy to abolish slavery, and even joked that he was far more wealthy than all the slavers he was negotiating with.  He must be one of the good billionaires!  He'll temper her worst impulses!  And yes, Daenerys has dragons, these mighty weapons of mass destruction, but she'll use them judiciously much like a certain president of the US used his drones!  She'll only kill the baddies, I'm sure of it!  Those weren't innocent civilians, those were just military-aged combatants in a war zone!  Just a signature strike! 

    It is here where the story advances past its critique of conservatism, and begins to challenge the upper limits of liberalism. And this critique of power, this notion that absolute power cannot be tamed even when good souls are put in charge is what grates so many viewers/readers, in my opinion. 

    It was not out of character for Daenerys to turn.  She simply used the language of egalitarianism and equality only when it suited her needs.  She "freed" (giant fucking air quotes) the slaves of Mereen provided that they would worship her, and really only freed them so that she could further advance her aims.  She framed herself (or rather, upset viewers allowed themselves to believe) that she, a rich white girl of noble birth was a salt of the earth, proletarian revolutionary, rather than the bourgeois revolutionary she's always been.  She only gave a damn about the poor as long as they worshiped her rule unquestioningly (bend the knee).  She was always willing to use the poor to oust one bourgeois family to install another, hers.  It was our fault as viewers to view her ascendancy to power as a form of (white) feminist empowerment, because we chose to overlook the cruel imperialism that proceeded her rise.  She was a conqueror.  She always has been.   A feminist imperialist, perhaps, but an imperialist nonetheless.

    That is what makes that last episode so hard to swallow for so many viewers, in my opinion.  It set fire (sorry) to the idea that we can just put "good people" to positions of absolute power and hope for the best.  Every single person who has or has attempted to sit on that throne was willing to commit genocide to do it.  The Lannisters were, Stannis  would have, and the Targaryn's have more than once.  And we, the viewers, were completely willing to overlook that.

    My only real gripe with the series so far, has been that they never really focused on the small people throughout the shows run to cement the idea that a true revolution would require the uprising of the people of Westeros to overthrow their tyrannical leaders, and that these people would not fight for banners or great families. 

    No, a true revolution would come from the people on the ground.  Those who survived the torment of this indiscriminate aerial attack.  They would have to have many faces.  And no name.
    Falconadd286SanguinePenguinthepastryarchybudesignshoos30
  • AnominalAnominal San Francisco Bay Area
    @matatoes

    “She only gave a damn about the poor as long as they worshiped her rule unquestioningly (bend the knee)”

    You articulated your point well. But this is the jump that’s not connecting. You come to this conclusion but the problem is they did bend the knee. They rang the bells, their knees were bent. Cersei defied her, she didn’t go after Cersei. She didn’t go after Jon, nor Tyrion. She didn’t go after the unarmed soldiers even. Grey Worm did that. She went after the people that never raised a hand against her.

    You’re interpretation is pretty wild considering everyone who has gotten this far saw what happened to Ned in season one where the showed already made that point. It’s not the final message that is making people dislike the episode. I don’t know how many times and how many different ways it can be said. Its not what happened, it’s how it happened.

    Supporters of the episode have been very creative in coming up with the reasons why she did it. And there are a lot of good ones. But those reasons weren’t on the screen. That’s why there are so many good variations. Because those reasons are creating story in the spaces that D&D didn’t use. 

    What at was the last thought in Dany’s head as she was taking in the fact that the bells we’re ringing?

    That’s what we want to know.

    How many different answers will I get from supporters of the episode? Because it’s going to be a lot.


    rkcrawf
  • edited May 2019
    Editing nothing lol: erased one of those “can’t we all just get along” comments and then fell asleep and hit enter to a blank text haha...oh me shouldn’t be up reading this late...
    ken hale
  • HatorianHatorian Dagobah
    i think this was a lose lose situation for everyone involved. 

    When you have like a hundred million fans there is no way to satisfy them.

    Add episodes and exposition. Well then complaints about no action, too much plodding and unnecessary dialogue. 

    have only 6 episodes. Well then complaints that there isn’t enough screen time to explain character motivations and earnest development.  .

    have the hero’s journey and TLOR ending and fans will be up in arms that it’s bullshit and not what GOT was about. 

    Have characters become evil or die and fans will be up in arms it isn’t TLOR happy ending. 

    Honestly If we poll 100 Bald Move fans we would get like 20 different answers to how they would build and end the series in the last season. 

    Ultimately GRRM is laughing. The dude played everyone like a fool. He made 2 great books and turned it into a billion dollar franchise. Hats off to him for winning this whole debacle. I don’t see how he can lose. No one expects him to finish the books. So he’s fine there. If he does finish the books and just follows the show no one will really care because it’s already done. But now he can actually write a different ending and because of such the negative reaction he literally can write almost anything that will be considered better by the die hard fans. 

    I said it like 3 years ago. GRRM used the series as a test run. Now he has millions of data points to make an ending that can be satisfying. Dude has won his own game. He sits on the throne. 
    SanguinePenguinawookiee
  • Hatorian said:
    I know this has been said by some others in this massive thread. But listening to the cast and the guys shitting on Jaime. 

    Maybe you guys were lucky. Maybe you never interacted with someone who had a toxic relationship that ended up ghosting you for them. 

    But to say it’s bullshit that Jaime wouldn’t go back to Cersei and it ruins is character arc and it ruins the story they were telling is just not true. 

    Jaime is no different than millions of people who try to become better people but ultimately fall back into their love for someone who is abusive and toxic to them. It’s completely common to see people ruin and abandon great relationships just to go back to the person they love for no sane or legitimate reason. People do stupid things for love. And people ruin their lives for love. There is nothing about what Jaime did that is unreasonable or unbelievable . 

    Im Glad you guys haven’t experienced someone doing this to you. But to act like it doesn’t happen to people and it ruins the story is a bit too much. It most certainly happens and it sucks to see good people who have tried their best to help someone overcome a toxic relationship just to see them go back to it. 

    It’s actually a bit poetic that Jaime gave into this and it cost him is life. 
    Pssst. They were in a cult. That’s the ultimate toxic relationship. I’d have thought they would get that. 

    But I agree. Jamie and Cersei are classic codependents. 
    gjames80

  • Anominal said:
    @matatoes

    “She only gave a damn about the poor as long as they worshiped her rule unquestioningly (bend the knee)”

    You articulated your point well. But this is the jump that’s not connecting. You come to this conclusion but the problem is they did bend the knee. They rang the bells, their knees were bent. Cersei defied her, she didn’t go after Cersei. She didn’t go after Jon, nor Tyrion. She didn’t go after the unarmed soldiers even. Grey Worm did that. She went after the people that never raised a hand against her.

    You’re interpretation is pretty wild considering everyone who has gotten this far saw what happened to Ned in season one where the showed already made that point. It’s not the final message that is making people dislike the episode. I don’t know how many times and how many different ways it can be said. Its not what happened, it’s how it happened.

    Supporters of the episode have been very creative in coming up with the reasons why she did it. And there are a lot of good ones. But those reasons weren’t on the screen. That’s why there are so many good variations. Because those reasons are creating story in the spaces that D&D didn’t use. 

    What at was the last thought in Dany’s head as she was taking in the fact that the bells we’re ringing?

    That’s what we want to know.

    How many different answers will I get from supporters of the episode? Because it’s going to be a lot.


    The D’s told us what was in her head in the post show. That they had to do that has to be viewed as a flaw in the episode. They have Dany say she’s making a conscious decision to rule by fear (scene with Jon) and that “mercy” was her weakness. She says mercy will be her strength (which didn’t track). The Ds then say in the post-show that the bells signaling the surrender of the Red Keep left her unfulfilled in the moment. I can buy both things. She’s sacrificed so much to get to her life’s goal and she feels empty after achieving it...so she chooses violence against innocents to try to balance the scales. 

    It tracks, but it undoes her history of fiercely protecting innocents. There’s brief convos with Tyrion about the innocents in several episodes, but something is still off. They need to better sell it in the moment. Drogo’s speech from S1 only helps in retrospect. 
  • JoeAlba said:
    Some of these complaints on the podcast are so ridiculous. Why did Jon pull back from romantically kissing his aunt? Really? You don’t see that as being plausible?  Oh and why did they imprison Jamie instead of killing him? (sigh).  And why was Grey Worm there without the unsullied? And why weren’t the helmets closed? And on and on and on it went.  These kind of ridiculous nitpicking complaints about a show with dragons, zombies and resurrections is just so absurd.  And they do this scene after scene after scene. Tearing it apart with some silly complaint of how they would have done it better. So incredibly tiresome. I couldn’t get through the entire podcast it was just too painful to listen to. To me the bottom line is that Jim and ARon were both totally invested in Dany being this victorious heroine and when it didn’t turn out that way they had to trash the entire show. Thinking that it would end with her happily sitting on the iron throne as some benevolent ruler is so not GOT I have to question their judgement. 
    It's sad, but it's been this way for years. If I nick picked a thing I suppose to " love" I would be a miserable sob.

    Glad this show is done, no wonder D&D have almost nothing to do with this fan base
    SanguinePenguin
  • edited May 2019
    It is so surprising that the guys actually find this episode worse than the previous two. I know that this one has a lower score on RT, but I just consider that to mean that the critics were slower to criticize such a beloved show, and are now just piling up on it with this succession of bad episodes. However, I don't see how this week episode could be seen as worse than episode 3 (which had very few redeeming qualities, not even the directing or cinematography) or episode 4 (which, apart from the banquet scene made no sense at all).

    This really seems to invalidate all the fan bankruptcy talk ARon had in the previous weeks, especially in the case of Jaimie's arc, where, as @Hatorian said, it all tracks to a classic codependent relationship, where even though he tried, Jaimie just couldn't break his addiction for Cersei. Sure, that is not how I would prefer Jaimie's story to end, but it was still believable and is actually a very GRRM-appropriate ending (I do agree that the line about him not caring about the thousands of innocents was complete bullshit and came close to character assassination).
    HatorianAll the Chickensrkcrawf
  • rkcrawf said:
    Trying to stick to the show, as I'm 5 min into a 2+ hr podcast that is at least starting out as reasonable. It's just too late in the night to listen for that long. If only I could quit my job and become a professional forum poster.

    I did a rewatch today. I think it's a mixed bag of an episode, which is unfortunate for the penultimate episode of one of the best shows of all time. On second watch, there was definitely more good moments than I remembered. But the flaws were also more obvious.
    • That scene with Jamie and Tyrion might be my favorite scene for those two actors. 
    • The final scene with Arya and the Hound again shows how awesome Maise is. One second she's a badass assassin, and then it looks like she's the same girl who snuck out of KL. 
    • I did miss the poison attempts by Varys the first time, and I wonder if something she may have occasionally consumed was contributing to her madness. 
    • I can see the parallels with the Red Wedding that Aron mentions, because you may not seeing coming, but in retrospect, it is all there. 
    • The dragon stuff is even better on second watch. I now get that the concussive force is maybe akin to an explosion going off inside the dragon, where the force is funneled out...propels the fire with a shockwave. Happens with a lot of gas explosions. 
    • The wildfire is still a nice touch. 
    • Clegane Bowl is well done. 
    • The stuff with Jamie and Cersei tracks 100%, even though I'm disappointed bc he threw away any redemption shot. But, as he said, he's done unforgivable things. He could not be a hero by killing the pregnant mother of his child. And it fits narratively that they die together. Otherwise, he'd have had to stay with Brienne and do nothing, which would be boring.
    The downside is that the flaws are there. The Euron scenes almost breaks the rest of the episode because it is absurd that he survives and washes up there. It feels lazy. No one should try to defend it. Some of the Arya stuff felt a bit melodramatic, too. I still think it's a C episode, when the D's should needed to put up an A+ to A-. Next week could get ugly because there's so much to resolve and no time to do it.


    Love the episode but I'll agree the Euron stuff sucked, I see what they tried to do but that character is horrible 
    rkcrawf
  • gguenot said:
    @Jim and @A_Ron_Hubbard isn’t a believable explanation of why Dany kept Jamie that she could use him as a prisoner pawn against Cersei?  

    Or as a way to test Tyrion’s loyalty and see if he is going to help his brother? 
    Or to kill him in front of his sister as was done to Missandei? Or in the hopes he has more intelligence as to his sisters plans? Or . . . There are so many logical reasons why she wouldn’t summarily execute him that it was laughable that Jim and Aron though this was such a plot mistake. Really guys? This is even beyond their usual nitpicking and has entered the realm of, “I hate the show now so much that I will do backflips to try and find something wrong in every single scene and try to convince you that we would have been better writers of the show”. This level of absurd negativity was sprinkled throughout the podcast, at least the portion I listened to until I couldn’t take it any more. I am not saying the show was perfect or that there wasn’t reasonable criticism that could have been had but when reasonable criticism is paired with this kind of ridiculous “analysis” it cast doubts on all the rest.
    SanguinePenguinawookiee
  • kuman07kuman07 Kansas City
    CapeGabe said:
    So, for the big final fight that the entire show we have:

    Team Good Guys: Jon, Tyrion, Sansa, Arya, Bran and Ser Davos
    vs
    Team Bad Guys: Daenerys and Grey Worm

    Yeah, that sounds awesome. I can hardly wait to see how this big, well earned final confrontation between the clear heroes and the clear villain plays out. With 1:20 left in the entire series. During which time we have to establish, escalate and pay off this entire conflict.

    And a dragon that just roasted a whole city. Unless he's back at Dragonstone smoking a post-burning cigarette.
    *Drogon takes drag of cigarette*
    "That massacre was better than sex"
    gjames80
  • matatoes said:
    This show has always been about telling the truth about power.  About conquest.  About empire.  About colonialism.  About tyranny.

    In the beginning, we are treated to the story of a blonde-haired product of nobility and incest who believes it is his birth-right to wield power however he sees fit.  No matter how violent, petty, or impetuous his actions are, his grip on power is never questioned.  And in the pen-ultimate episode, we are treated to another blonde-haired product of incest who believes it is her birth-right to wield that same power as she sees fit, and without consequence.

    Yet, we somehow feel betrayed when we are told that same story the second time around.  Why?

    Well, in the first instance, the groundwork for despising this tyrant has already been laid.  We see Joffrey for what he is: A spoiled and vile little shit who's inherited his power through no action of his own.  We immediately identify this character as tyrannical.  He was not elected, he was not chosen, he did not earn his right to rule.  He was simply appointed.  He's the son of a former ruler who stole his seat.  We see his rule, his terrible actions, his authoritarian grip, and we understand intuitively the great crime that occurred against the people in order to secure his reign.  We see the crime that continues to occur every time his power goes unchecked.  This kind of monarchy and this level of absolute power, politically speaking, is the essence of conservatism.  Joffrey, the despicable little shit that he is, doesn't give a fuck about the common people even as they are starving outside the gates begging for bread.  All of us who recognize our complete powerlessness in this kind of system are conditioned to despise this.

    It is here where many of us depart, and begin to hope for an alternative form of rule.  What if we can find a better leader?  One who is a better person?  Surely, if we put a good person in power, they would use their influence to make the world better, no?

    Enter Daenerys.  After all, she freed the slaves! Nevermind the fact that she immediately enlisted those newly freed, nipple-less slaves into her army.  And let's just forget about the slave she publicly executed for killing his master and oppressor (nice touch, mhysa).  She's a good person!  She's just!  Surely she will lead with a softer touch, no?  And if she surrounds herself with smart and sound advisers, she'll do right by the people!  After all, even Tyrion Lannister tried his hand at diplomacy to abolish slavery, and even joked that he was far more wealthy than all the slavers he was negotiating with.  He must be one of the good billionaires!  He'll temper her worst impulses!  And yes, Daenerys has dragons, these mighty weapons of mass destruction, but she'll use them judiciously much like a certain president of the US used his drones!  She'll only kill the baddies, I'm sure of it!  Those weren't innocent civilians, those were just military-aged combatants in a war zone!  Just a signature strike! 

    It is here where the story advances past its critique of conservatism, and begins to challenge the upper limits of liberalism. And this critique of power, this notion that absolute power cannot be tamed even when good souls are put in charge is what grates so many viewers/readers, in my opinion. 

    It was not out of character for Daenerys to turn.  She simply used the language of egalitarianism and equality only when it suited her needs.  She "freed" (giant fucking air quotes) the slaves of Mereen provided that they would worship her, and really only freed them so that she could further advance her aims.  She framed herself (or rather, upset viewers allowed themselves to believe) that she, a rich white girl of noble birth was a salt of the earth, proletarian revolutionary, rather than the bourgeois revolutionary she's always been.  She only gave a damn about the poor as long as they worshiped her rule unquestioningly (bend the knee).  She was always willing to use the poor to oust one bourgeois family to install another, hers.  It was our fault as viewers to view her ascendancy to power as a form of (white) feminist empowerment, because we chose to overlook the cruel imperialism that proceeded her rise.  She was a conqueror.  She always has been.   A feminist imperialist, perhaps, but an imperialist nonetheless.

    That is what makes that last episode so hard to swallow for so many viewers, in my opinion.  It set fire (sorry) to the idea that we can just put "good people" to positions of absolute power and hope for the best.  Every single person who has or has attempted to sit on that throne was willing to commit genocide to do it.  The Lannisters were, Stannis  would have, and the Targaryn's have more than once.  And we, the viewers, were completely willing to overlook that.

    My only real gripe with the series so far, has been that they never really focused on the small people throughout the shows run to cement the idea that a true revolution would require the uprising of the people of Westeros to overthrow their tyrannical leaders, and that these people would not fight for banners or great families. 

    No, a true revolution would come from the people on the ground.  Those who survived the torment of this indiscriminate aerial attack.  They would have to have many faces.  And no name.
    Wonderfully put. 
    SanguinePenguin
  • Damn, I might’ve come off pretty negative the last few days, but I’d rather complain about a show than complain about a podcast complaining about a show.  Why is it so important to people who still like this show that others agree with them?
    johnnytruantjoepinetreeGiovannigjames80
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    CapeGabe said:
    CapeGabe said:
    JoeAlba said:
    To me the bottom line is that Jim and ARon were both totally invested in Dany being this victorious heroine and when it didn’t turn out that way they had to trash the entire show.

    That makes zero sense. Why in the world would they be invested in Dany being victorious? Like others they seem to be a fan of a well crafted story which this season has not been even close to being. 
     Jim said in last weeks podcast that every scene Dany is in with someone it feels like she wants to burn them down and he made mention that that feels wrong but that he gets it from every scene she’s in.  

    That is contradictory logic in and of itself, because if that’s how she is every time then it can’t be wrong, it’s her nature and it’s the way they have written her for eight seasons

    Please notice I’m only bringing up the points the podcast has made in the past...I’m sorry but it’s the podcast that has made a U turn, not the show

    I just don't see where they have been invested in a Dany victory in the past. I never have got the feeling they were Team Dany. People seem to enjoy inventing head canon about other people's opinions and then it becomes the truth to them.
    While I wouldn't say that they were "team Dany" at all, he is right in that they at least insinuated in previous podcasts that they could see the writing on the wall regarding Dany's turn. Even in the episode 4 podcast where I believe Jim seemed to be good with Dany going mad queen. A.Ron was upfront by saying that while he thought it was an earned story to tell, his bias was that he simply didn't like it.  

    It wasn't until this episode that some trigger was pulled in their brains that they could not accept that she would do this. It's why I was surprised by at least Jim's reaction. Perhaps some of us interpreted their words incorrectly in previous podcasts.

    I will say that while I'm not accusing Jim and A.Ron of this at all, I think that there is a large contingent of the unhappy fans who were simply wanting to be able to scream "YAASSSSSS QUEEN" at their tv and on the internet. It literally would not have mattered how well earned or how long they established this turn. If they took more time with it, that contingent would just be slowly getting unhappy with the show over a longer period of time.

    I've seen this with all types of fans who can't really or don't bother arguing that a story or character action wasn't earned or realistic, but that they just didn't like it. There has been at least one podcast I normally enjoy who just ranted the whole time about a prophecy not coming to fruition that wasn't even in the show -- even if it was, who gives a medium sized turd about a dumb, vague prophecy? (not this book reader)
    djcaudle01
  • I skipped the instant because it sounded like it was going to be infuriating.  I listened to most of yesterday's podcast and I feel like they have calmed down but it's still massive nitpicking that is just a huge bummer and some of it didn't make sense - like obviously Jaime is being held as leverage against Cersei.  And yeah yeah, Euron washed up at exactly the right place but isn't that basically how all of fiction works?

    I will probably need to skip Friday's podcast.  And then I guess we will see about the podcasts next week.  Don't get me wrong though - I'm still on team J&A and will continue to support them, but it's not going to do me any good to listen to something so negative.

    This is just turning out to be such a bummer in a different way than I expected.  I'm feeling relieved that the show is ending so I can just move on already.  Ugh.
    ken hale
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    ken hale said:
    Damn, I might’ve come off pretty negative the last few days, but I’d rather complain about a show than complain about a podcast complaining about a show.  Why is it so important to people who still like this show that others agree with them?
    Aren't you arguing with people who like the show telling them how shitty it is, after you've stated that you think the show is dumb now and laugh each week while watching it (or something to that effect)?

    I guess the same reason that people on reddit shout down anyone who likes an episode or storyline that many of them hate. It's kind of what people do.

    Personally, if I thought the show was dumb and had checked out a few episodes or seasons ago, I wouldn't bother even visiting these threads. That's just me and I understand that not everyone engages with content in that way. I stopped watch TWD last season, but if I were still watching it and thinking it was stupid, I would never visit those TWD episode threads on here. So while you might not understand that mindset of defending something you like to those who don't, I could say that I don't understand the reverse.
    djcaudle01
  • walktheskywalkthesky New York
    CapeGabe said:
    CapeGabe said:
    JoeAlba said:
    To me the bottom line is that Jim and ARon were both totally invested in Dany being this victorious heroine and when it didn’t turn out that way they had to trash the entire show.

    That makes zero sense. Why in the world would they be invested in Dany being victorious? Like others they seem to be a fan of a well crafted story which this season has not been even close to being. 
     Jim said in last weeks podcast that every scene Dany is in with someone it feels like she wants to burn them down and he made mention that that feels wrong but that he gets it from every scene she’s in.  

    That is contradictory logic in and of itself, because if that’s how she is every time then it can’t be wrong, it’s her nature and it’s the way they have written her for eight seasons

    Please notice I’m only bringing up the points the podcast has made in the past...I’m sorry but it’s the podcast that has made a U turn, not the show

    I just don't see where they have been invested in a Dany victory in the past. I never have got the feeling they were Team Dany. People seem to enjoy inventing head canon about other people's opinions and then it becomes the truth to them.
    I’m with you on that for sure! I can only speak for myself but my biggest confusion is last week they were fine with idea that Dany could go “mad” and now they are acting like they never said those things...but to your point Cape I totally agree, they always seemed more like Stannis and then Jon fans, I would put them more with Melisandre’s thinking to that end lol
    Exactly.  Not sure why she needed another “nudge”.  The guys were settled this could happen already.  Aron consistently said he was curious where GRRM and the double d’s were going with Dany up to and including the mad queen.  
    djcaudle01
  • ken hale said:
    Damn, I might’ve come off pretty negative the last few days, but I’d rather complain about a show than complain about a podcast complaining about a show.  Why is it so important to people who still like this show that others agree with them?
    People need validation /shrug. The people who didn't like the episode are just as insistent that everyone who liked it is wrong and should agree with them. 

    As a person who thinks this season has been mostly C's, not an A or an F, it's pretty crazy seeing these two sides go at each other. 
    djcaudle01ken hale
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