805 - The Bells

11516182021

Comments

  • I think this season was rushed and I think that is what is hurting the quality of writing. Not rushed in a time sense but the story needed at least a couple more seasons to get to where we are currently in a coherent manner. After thinking about Dany more and last episode. It definitely has a Bloody Mary Tudor vibe. I wonder if the books are setting her up to be a Bloody Mary analogue? I’ll leave this 2 year old blog post here as it sums up my thoughts on the last two episodes.  https://www.google.com/amp/s/historyoficeandfire.wordpress.com/2017/04/05/251/amp/
  • Why hasn't anyone thought about Dany knew she was betrayed by Tyrion if the bells rung. She knew telling him about his brother would send him off to save him she knew cersei would never surrender. So if the bells rung she knew Jamie did it therefore she was betrayed by the last person she thought might be on her side. She already said she wondered what side he was on and that told her so the bells sent her enrage because she knew she was betrayed by the last person she felt was in her corner. That's why Jon looked at him the way he did as well when he brought up the bells before the battle. She played him the same way Sansa played him. And the city burned for it
    MurderbearSanguinePenguinbudesignsgjames80
  • ken hale said:
    Damn, I might’ve come off pretty negative the last few days, but I’d rather complain about a show than complain about a podcast complaining about a show.  Why is it so important to people who still like this show that others agree with them?
    Aren't you arguing with people who like the show telling them how shitty it is, after you've stated that you think the show is dumb now and laugh each week while watching it (or something to that effect)?

    [...]

    Personally, if I thought the show was dumb and had checked out a few episodes or seasons ago...
    True point! You could almost say my character arc has come full circle, lol. I’m definitely argumentative in nature but I’m just having fun with it, cracking jokes, maybe needling people a little bit like the prick that I am. And I only really checked out after they botched the Night King storyline, so maybe I’m still hanging around to process my fresh grief :(

    awookiee
  • I skipped the instant because it sounded like it was going to be infuriating.  I listened to most of yesterday's podcast and I feel like they have calmed down but it's still massive nitpicking that is just a huge bummer and some of it didn't make sense - like obviously Jaime is being held as leverage against Cersei.  And yeah yeah, Euron washed up at exactly the right place but isn't that basically how all of fiction works?
    I liked the show because it wasn't how all fiction worked. J and A made a great point about this, the show subverted our expectations because it wasn't like all the other fantasy that relies on unrealistic outcomes. 
  • edited May 15
    HBO should have cancelled those "Inside the Episode" after episode shows.

    Every time I see The Double D's speak on the "why" in an episode they say something so stupid it is maddening. There were things that didn't bother me at all watching the episode and then they explain their reasoning for doing it and it sounds so stupid.

    They would probably be better served letting people's head canon explain the episodes than what convoluted reasoning they are offering up.

    EDIT: Changed the name to "Inside the Episode" thanks to @All the Chickens
    Anominalj0n1c4CeciliaMgjames80
  • dragonsdragons NYC
    edited May 15
    Giovanni said:
    I skipped the instant because it sounded like it was going to be infuriating.  I listened to most of yesterday's podcast and I feel like they have calmed down but it's still massive nitpicking that is just a huge bummer and some of it didn't make sense - like obviously Jaime is being held as leverage against Cersei.  And yeah yeah, Euron washed up at exactly the right place but isn't that basically how all of fiction works?
    I liked the show because it wasn't how all fiction worked. J and A made a great point about this, the show subverted our expectations because it wasn't like all the other fantasy that relies on unrealistic outcomes. 
    Yes, to a degree but Game of Thrones is not immune to convenient set ups.  Some examples include things like Meryn Trant just happening to show up in Bravos so Arya can kill him, Brienne out and about in the vast expanse of Westeros and happening upon Arya and then happening upon Sansa, Brienne being there to save Sansa and Theon, and so on.  If no one conveniently found each other, there would be little story to tell.  
    SanguinePenguin
  • chriskchrisk Indianapolis
    Just gonna say I totally see Jon taking the throne because he doesn’t trust anyone  who wants the job to do it right and justly. 

    It’s VERY Jon to do something he doesn’t want to do out of a sense of duty. 
    Murderbear
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    edited May 15
    chrisk said:
    Just gonna say I totally see Jon taking the throne because he doesn’t trust anyone  who wants the job to do it right and justly. 

    It’s VERY Jon to do something he doesn’t want to do out of a sense of duty. 
    Agreed. Jim's point that Jon has constantly been refusing the throne is in regards to Dany. Clearly he sees she must be dealt with and if she's gone, I can see him feeling honor bound by his sense of duty to take the throne.

    BUT a small part of me wouldn't be surprised if at the end he asks these two if there is room for one more on that sled...ha 
    GredalBeeSanguinePenguincdriveadampaszDaveyMac
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    CapeGabe said:
    HBO should have cancelled those "Making of" after episode shows.

    Every time I see The Double D's speak on the "why" in an episode they say something so stupid it is maddening. There were things that didn't bother me at all watching the episode and then they explain their reasoning for doing it and it sounds so stupid.

    They would probably be better served letting people's head canon explain the episodes than what convoluted reasoning they are offering up.
    The making of things are different than the post-episode chats where D&D talk after the episode. The "Game Revealed" specials that they release after each episode are actually pretty cool just to see BTS and how they pull all of this together. It seems like they mostly feature everyone except D&D in those.

    The thing I think you are talking about are the "Inside the Episode" features that play right after the episode is over. And I agree that D&D have said some stupid shit in some of those this season.

    So that I don't sound crazy, here are the different features (they release them on their GameofThrones youtube channel):

    This is the "Game Revealed" for Episode 4:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwQV89TE8DQ

    This is the "Inside the Episode" for Episode 4 w/ D&D:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8K9XuPrXko
    CapeGabeDaveyMac
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    edited May 15
    chrisk said:
    Just gonna say I totally see Jon taking the throne because he doesn’t trust anyone  who wants the job to do it right and justly. 

    It’s VERY Jon to do something he doesn’t want to do out of a sense of duty. 
    Agreed. Jim's point that Jon has constantly been refusing the throne is in regards to Dany. Clearly he sees she must be dealt with and if she's gone, I can see him feeling honor bound by his sense of duty to take the throne.

    BUT a small part of me wouldn't be surprised if at the end he asks these two if there is room for one more on that sled...ha 
    I agree. With all of this craziness and grief Jon is surely about to go through (on the heels of everything he just went through), I could see Jon making sure that some ruler is in place who isn't insane, then taking an early retirement from all of this bullshit. If he even lives through this, of course.
    Murderbear
  • chriskchrisk Indianapolis
    I feel about those post show comments the way I feel about coach and player interviews. They typically just restate what happened or say something that seems to make no sense. I've noticed this season they did them all in one go - same sets, same clothes, etc.. I wonder how much time apart from it influences what they're saying - either from genuinely forgetting which brainstorming session led to that final decision or wanting to skew it in light of how it turned out. 

    It's weird to hear them say about stories they wrote "I don't think Dany wants..." 




  • Anominal said:
    @matatoes

    “She only gave a damn about the poor as long as they worshiped her rule unquestioningly (bend the knee)”

    You articulated your point well. But this is the jump that’s not connecting. You come to this conclusion but the problem is they did bend the knee. They rang the bells, their knees were bent. Cersei defied her, she didn’t go after Cersei. She didn’t go after Jon, nor Tyrion. She didn’t go after the unarmed soldiers even. Grey Worm did that. She went after the people that never raised a hand against her.

    You’re interpretation is pretty wild considering everyone who has gotten this far saw what happened to Ned in season one where the showed already made that point. It’s not the final message that is making people dislike the episode. I don’t know how many times and how many different ways it can be said. Its not what happened, it’s how it happened.

    Supporters of the episode have been very creative in coming up with the reasons why she did it. And there are a lot of good ones. But those reasons weren’t on the screen. That’s why there are so many good variations. Because those reasons are creating story in the spaces that D&D didn’t use. 

    What at was the last thought in Dany’s head as she was taking in the fact that the bells we’re ringing?

    That’s what we want to know.

    How many different answers will I get from supporters of the episode? Because it’s going to be a lot.


    I really hope we get a deep look into the headspace of Dany early in the episode on Sunday. That by no means will satisfy the people that hated the way Dany turned and nor should it. I had zero issue with the way it went and what they showed regarding Dany going mad queen but I 100% agree that they should have done more to show her mind space during the exact moment the bells rang and she made the decision to burn the city to the ground rather than accept their surrender.
    majjam0770BloodyTaco
  • edited May 15
    chrisk said:
    I feel about those post show comments the way I feel about coach and player interviews. They typically just restate what happened or say something that seems to make no sense. I've noticed this season they did them all in one go - same sets, same clothes, etc.. I wonder how much time apart from it influences what they're saying - either from genuinely forgetting which brainstorming session led to that final decision or wanting to skew it in light of how it turned out. 

    It's weird to hear them say about stories they wrote "I don't think Dany wants..." 

    The worst thing I heard them say was that Dany forgot Euron's fleet existed and that is why Rhaegal was easily ambushed. Uhg

    chrisk
  • edited May 15

    Thought about the discussion on why Jaimie was taken prisoner as opposed to just executing him with Varys in a two-for-one:

    Jamie was team Lannister from the get-go, obviously. When shown definitive proof of the undead threat he committed to fighting for the living. Even though Cersei had no interest in delivering on that commitment, Jaimie rode north to honor his promise. He did not forsake the Lannister cause, he rode north under truce to fight for the living in the long night and when that fight was over he had every right to return to King's Landing.

    It's not like he swore oaths of fealty to Dany, to Jon, or to Sansa. The cast points out that it makes no sense that he was a prisoner in that tent. I agree, but its because I think he should have been let through the lines and escorted to the gates under the same truce he rode out on.

    Thoughts?

    budesigns
  • CapeGabe said:
    HBO should have cancelled those "Inside the Episode" after episode shows.

    Every time I see The Double D's speak on the "why" in an episode they say something so stupid it is maddening. There were things that didn't bother me at all watching the episode and then they explain their reasoning for doing it and it sounds so stupid.

    They would probably be better served letting people's head canon explain the episodes than what convoluted reasoning they are offering up.

    EDIT: Changed the name to "Inside the Episode" thanks to @All the Chickens
    I'm not really a fan of these post-show features in general, even with shows I'm loving like Barry and Chernobyl. When an episode ends I kind of want to stew in my own thoughts about it, and it takes me out of it to immediately jump behind the scenes and have to listen to the creators explain stuff. Like they need to get the last word in. 

    Fine as a special feature I guess, but I usually find myself scrambling to shut off my PS4 when I've let the credits roll through.
    bbordDaveyMac
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    CapeGabe said:
    chrisk said:
    I feel about those post show comments the way I feel about coach and player interviews. They typically just restate what happened or say something that seems to make no sense. I've noticed this season they did them all in one go - same sets, same clothes, etc.. I wonder how much time apart from it influences what they're saying - either from genuinely forgetting which brainstorming session led to that final decision or wanting to skew it in light of how it turned out. 

    It's weird to hear them say about stories they wrote "I don't think Dany wants..." 

    The worst thing I heard them say was that Dany forgot Euron's fleet existed and that is why Rhaegal was easily ambushed. Uhg

    Episode 4: Dany's war room planning scene has them verbally mentioning and pointing out Eurons Iron Fleet as major chess pieces on the map.

    Later in Episode 4: Eurons surprise attacks Dany's dragons and fleet at Dragonstone

    Inside the Episode with D&D: Dany kind of forgot about Eurons fleet.

    Me: 

    SanguinePenguinDoctor_NickAnominalCapeGabeBloodyTacoken halehisdudeness915PangsCeciliaMDaveyMac
  • AnominalAnominal San Francisco Bay Area
    Anominal said:
    @matatoes

    “She only gave a damn about the poor as long as they worshiped her rule unquestioningly (bend the knee)”

    You articulated your point well. But this is the jump that’s not connecting. You come to this conclusion but the problem is they did bend the knee. They rang the bells, their knees were bent. Cersei defied her, she didn’t go after Cersei. She didn’t go after Jon, nor Tyrion. She didn’t go after the unarmed soldiers even. Grey Worm did that. She went after the people that never raised a hand against her.

    You’re interpretation is pretty wild considering everyone who has gotten this far saw what happened to Ned in season one where the showed already made that point. It’s not the final message that is making people dislike the episode. I don’t know how many times and how many different ways it can be said. Its not what happened, it’s how it happened.

    Supporters of the episode have been very creative in coming up with the reasons why she did it. And there are a lot of good ones. But those reasons weren’t on the screen. That’s why there are so many good variations. Because those reasons are creating story in the spaces that D&D didn’t use. 

    What at was the last thought in Dany’s head as she was taking in the fact that the bells we’re ringing?

    That’s what we want to know.

    How many different answers will I get from supporters of the episode? Because it’s going to be a lot.


    I really hope we get a deep look into the headspace of Dany early in the episode on Sunday. That by no means will satisfy the people that hated the way Dany turned and nor should it. I had zero issue with the way it went and what they showed regarding Dany going mad queen but I 100% agree that they should have done more to show her mind space during the exact moment the bells rang and she made the decision to burn the city to the ground rather than accept their surrender.
    Yeah. It's possible I can be 80% to 90% of the way turned back around if they can manage to pull that off.

    Dany is going to land for sure and not stay isolated in the air the whole finale. Jon and/or Tyrion (and/or Davos?) are going to speak to her at some point. I imagine there will be dialogue and not just looks and body language or just a one sided conversation. And I can hope that one or more questions her decision and the scene plays out. There are a lot of ways that retroactively make me feel a lot better about this episode. 
  • Doctor_NickDoctor_Nick Terminus
    I don’t see how there’s any way they can bring all these plots in for a satisfying landing in just one episode. The damn political situation could probably be a season on its own. 
    ken halePangsDaveyMac
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    Here's how they can explain everything:

    -Episode 6 opens with Drogon landing in front of her entire army and Jon.

    -Dany hops off of Drogon, and runs as fast as possible towards Jon with terror in her eyes, yelling "JON, THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH DROGON. HE WOULDN'T STOP BURNING EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE. ALL I COULD DO WAS HOLD ON FOR DEAR LIFE AND WATCH IN HORROR"

    -Cut to Bran with white eyes rolling back to normal ,and him grinning before saying "The things you do for love"







    -Sansa comes into the frame near Bran responding "What was that, Bran? Did you say something?"
    -Bran: "oh, oh nothing"
    -Sansa: "No, I'm pretty sure you said something and then started grinning like a villain. Are you doing bad things with your powers again?"
    -Bran:  ................
    -Sansa: "............. god damnit, Bran"
    MurderbearasmallcatAnominalSanguinePenguinPeepsmajjam0770Graffin_DirtybloodBloodyTacoBrandonTheBardCeciliaMand 2 others.
  • cdrivecdrive Houston, TX
    Good afternoon, from Houston, TX!

    SanguinePenguinmajjam0770CapeGabeCeciliaMDaveyMac
  • Here's how they can explain everything:

    -Episode 6 opens with Drogon landing in front of her entire army and Jon.

    -Dany hops off of Drogon, and runs as fast as possible towards Jon with terror in her eyes, yelling "JON, THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH DROGON. HE WOULDN'T STOP BURNING EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE. ALL I COULD DO WAS HOLD ON FOR DEAR LIFE AND WATCH IN HORROR"

    -Cut to Bran with white eyes rolling back to normal ,and him grinning before saying "The things you do for love"







    -Sansa comes into the frame near Bran responding "What was that, Bran? Did you say something?"
    -Bran: "oh, oh nothing"
    -Sansa: "No, I'm pretty sure you said something and then started grinning like a villain. Are you doing bad things with your powers again?"
    -Bran:  ................
    -Sansa: "............. god damnit, Bran"

    I have to say, I'd pop for that.
    majjam0770DaveyMac
  • chriskchrisk Indianapolis
    This will never happen, but the only reason I'd hope this works is for them to be pissed again when they don't like the new result. 

    I respect anyone's opinion on this season, and I don't like a lot of it. But, my god, let it go. 
    Game of Thrones Fans Launch Petition to Remake Season 8 With New Writers https://buff.ly/2W6kiwQ 


    You'll probably get a remake in the next 20 years anyway.

    SanguinePenguinAnominalCapeGabeken haleadampaszMurderbear
  • Oh online petitions. Literally the least someone can do. 
    SanguinePenguinCapeGabehisdudeness915
  • cdrive said:
    Good afternoon, from Houston, TX!


    Be careful @cdrive she might go crazy at any second and start ramming everyone!
    cdriveGiovanniadampasz
  • chrisk said:
    This will never happen, but the only reason I'd hope this works is for them to be pissed again when they don't like the new result. 

    I respect anyone's opinion on this season, and I don't like a lot of it. But, my god, let it go. 
    Game of Thrones Fans Launch Petition to Remake Season 8 With New Writers https://buff.ly/2W6kiwQ 


    You'll probably get a remake in the next 20 years anyway.

    Want to wager on if the final Song of Ice and Fire books are done in 20 years when they make a remake series?

    I say the final two books never come out.
    CapeGabe
  • AnominalAnominal San Francisco Bay Area
    asmallcat said:
    Oh online petitions. Literally the least someone can do. 

    How dare you! I'm going to post a vague passive aggressive post on Facebook and tell people nothing's wrong when they ask. 
    CeciliaM
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    Want to wager on if the final Song of Ice and Fire books are done in 20 years when they make a remake series?

    I say the final two books never come out.
    GRRM's estate will be controlled by his surviving pet turtles at that point. I'm pretty sure the lawyers will be able to persuade Tyrion the Tortoise to give them the rights to finish his ASOIAF series.
    SanguinePenguinCapeGabeken hale
  • cdrivecdrive Houston, TX
    CapeGabe said:
    cdrive said:
    Good afternoon, from Houston, TX!


    Be careful @cdrive she might go crazy at any second and start ramming everyone!
    Right!. That Ranger tho.   She must be like "Feeling cute. Might run over some pedestrians later, idk"
    CeciliaM
  • MoonMan13MoonMan13 Northern Kentucky
    I don't think she 'went mad' as in I just can't help but kill these people. I think there was a moment after seeing the victory in sight, hearing the bells ring and we're meant to think she said to herself, " this isn't enough, the problem will still exist. This place is the source of the 'wheel' and they don't get to just surrender. It will just be more of the same. It all has to go."
    Could be a repeat take but I think the nuance maybe helps make it seem more believable?
    awookiee
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