Why are folks so upset about Jamie?
The internet and Jim and A.Ron in particular are very upset about the ending of Jamie's ark. I'm a little perplexed, because I don't see how his decision to go die with Cersei negates his character growth or his love for Brienne. To me most of these criticisms are rooted in the idea that you must be either good or bad, and you could love only one person, or that Brienne was somehow tricked out of her virginity.
I don't think this ending has negated Jamie's growth or turn to the good side. Jamie has done nothing evil this season. He came North, he fought the white walkers and defended humanity. He saved Brienne (and was saved by her during that battle). Yes, it is kind of shitty that he slept with Brienne and then decided to run off in the middle of the night, but it's not like he Barney Stinsoned her and put on some sort of false identity - he had genuine feelings for her and acted on those feelings. I don't think the series is giving us any indication that he was just trying to get in her pants, it seems like he genuinely cared for her and loved her.
The fact that Jamie also still loved Cersei doesn't mean he didn't love Brienne. The show indicated that he had feelings for them both, and there is nothing inherently bad or evil about that. Cersei may be a monster, and Jamie has done monstrous things on her behalf in the past, but in this season he did nothing monstrous on her behalf. He wasn't going back to KL to fight for Cersei, he was going back to die with her. I think since we heard from Arya and the Hound that they were going to KL without any plans to return - they understood from the onset that they were likely going toward death, it is safe to assume that Jamie had a similar understanding.
I agree that the line "I never cared for the innocent" is annoying, and that technically could be taken as an "evil" act, but if the worst thing he's done this season is saying something mean, I think we don't need to write-off his turn to the good side. Also, despite what he said, he agreed to Tyrion's plan, and I don't think there is any indication that he wasn't genuinely trying to get in there and ring those damn bells.
The surprise-Euron sucks, I agree.
I found Jamie and Cersei's death in the rubble fitting and beautiful. You can argue whatever you want about how you wanted Cersei to die and whether she got what she deserved, etc. But I just don't think this ending negates Jamie as a good man, he fought for the army of the living, he was on the side of good. And in the end, he died in the arms of the woman he loved, as messed up as that woman and that love are.
Re: Jamie/Brienne - I think they had a meaningful relationship, a real love, and a well earned sexual encounter, which Brienne seemed to be excited for and enjoy. Yes, Jamie hurt her by leaving, but Brienne is a strong, intelligent person, this is not going to ruin her life. And I think she's smart enough to see that what her and Jamie had was real too, it's just that humans can love multiple people and have multiple complex emotions and motivations driving them at the same time.
Sorry for the rambling, it's just that some of the commentary on this particular ark feels very centered on black/white-good/evil, and monogomous love, and the passive unsuspecting woman giving up her virginity to the clever deceitful man, which I think misses the point of this story and the complexity of the characters.
I don't think this ending has negated Jamie's growth or turn to the good side. Jamie has done nothing evil this season. He came North, he fought the white walkers and defended humanity. He saved Brienne (and was saved by her during that battle). Yes, it is kind of shitty that he slept with Brienne and then decided to run off in the middle of the night, but it's not like he Barney Stinsoned her and put on some sort of false identity - he had genuine feelings for her and acted on those feelings. I don't think the series is giving us any indication that he was just trying to get in her pants, it seems like he genuinely cared for her and loved her.
The fact that Jamie also still loved Cersei doesn't mean he didn't love Brienne. The show indicated that he had feelings for them both, and there is nothing inherently bad or evil about that. Cersei may be a monster, and Jamie has done monstrous things on her behalf in the past, but in this season he did nothing monstrous on her behalf. He wasn't going back to KL to fight for Cersei, he was going back to die with her. I think since we heard from Arya and the Hound that they were going to KL without any plans to return - they understood from the onset that they were likely going toward death, it is safe to assume that Jamie had a similar understanding.
I agree that the line "I never cared for the innocent" is annoying, and that technically could be taken as an "evil" act, but if the worst thing he's done this season is saying something mean, I think we don't need to write-off his turn to the good side. Also, despite what he said, he agreed to Tyrion's plan, and I don't think there is any indication that he wasn't genuinely trying to get in there and ring those damn bells.
The surprise-Euron sucks, I agree.
I found Jamie and Cersei's death in the rubble fitting and beautiful. You can argue whatever you want about how you wanted Cersei to die and whether she got what she deserved, etc. But I just don't think this ending negates Jamie as a good man, he fought for the army of the living, he was on the side of good. And in the end, he died in the arms of the woman he loved, as messed up as that woman and that love are.
Re: Jamie/Brienne - I think they had a meaningful relationship, a real love, and a well earned sexual encounter, which Brienne seemed to be excited for and enjoy. Yes, Jamie hurt her by leaving, but Brienne is a strong, intelligent person, this is not going to ruin her life. And I think she's smart enough to see that what her and Jamie had was real too, it's just that humans can love multiple people and have multiple complex emotions and motivations driving them at the same time.
Sorry for the rambling, it's just that some of the commentary on this particular ark feels very centered on black/white-good/evil, and monogomous love, and the passive unsuspecting woman giving up her virginity to the clever deceitful man, which I think misses the point of this story and the complexity of the characters.
Comments
They knew it was coming and should have started to make changes to him a few seasons ago. I don't know how, maybe having him pay a bard at night to play emo songs while crying to a picture of Cersei.
Had Jaime grown and become a better man? yes.
Did he respect (and probably love) Brienne? yes
"His arc was a circle" isn't a valid complaint when it reflects so many people in toxic relationships. Yeah, it sucks, but abused women (and men) go back to their abusers over and over. People do irrational things.
Jaime's story and death were sad for those of us who wanted him to emerge as a hero.
But that's not who he was deep down. He loved Cersei above all else and always would.
From, what, season 3? on they've been telling the story of Jamie becoming a better person. He becomes less flippant, tries to do the right thing whenever he can, and seems to realize how toxic Cersei is. If you were hoping to see him ultimately redeemed, if not forgiven, his actions this episode would be incredibly disappointing.
IF one of George's bullet points was that Jaime would go back to Cersei out of some perverse addiction to her or desire to be evil, the show did an awful job of telling that. But that's highly unlikely, as the book portrays Jaime as very level-headed, and by the end of book 5 he knew she was nuts and was done with her.
Show’s ham handed overnight flippity floppity: Not very good.
The only problem that I have with Cersei's end is that I feel like the show wanted us to pity her and that is troubling. Given the mechanics of where the story was, literally the castle was crumbling around them and it's not like there was time to give Jaime a spine, but it was just not satisfying. I mean, they set that stage. That was their choice and this character whose journey we have become so invested in just felt like it was all for nothing. Once again, you can tell that story, but they told it in a really unfulfilling way. His journey to end his journey, if you will, came down to a pensive moment staring into a fire, and that sucks.
Ultimately, its not that he dies with Cersei or that he doesn't kill her that bothers me about the end of his arc. It's that he goes back because he's in love with Cersei.
Here's what I would've preferred. That he no longer loves Cersei but his feeling of responsibility towards his child and his honor/duty as a father & brother is what brings him back to her. That, for me, wouldve ended his tragic arc but also keep his redemption arc primarily intact.
I will say though I have a problem with D&D having Jaime say he didn't care about innocents. That's probably far worse than what the end of the arc was.
If Jamie had Knighted Brienne, not slept with her, and then announced he was going back to King's Landing having fulfilled his obligation to fight the dead with an ensuing argument with Tyrion and Brienne where he explains his obligation or feelings or whatever it was that drove him back, that would have flowed better.
If they let him leave Winterfell without talking to Danny and she was livid about it, then you could still have the scene with his capture/release outside King's Landing and it would be another betrayal by advisors, and lover presuming Jon would have to okay it, for Danny on her path to madness.
A lot of the clunky transitions that have folks upset about Ep 5 could probably have been resolved with maybe 30min of additional dialog scenes and you could cut the Bronn stuff (serves no purpose even though I love the character, seems fan-servicey), the Jamie/Brienne bedding (not good for his arc or her arc anyway, seems fan-servicey), the Jamie/Euron "battle" (served no purpose just fry him on the deck of the ship), etc. to fit a better version into 6 episodes anyway.
The rush is real, but they could have served the story better with better prioritization.
Like I said, this is just sort of thinking into a computer, and I'm not sure how much I even put into it as a major reason that the Jaime thing annoys me, but I do like the question being applied to the situation. They made a very bold decision with Dany too, and I wonder if examined under not so much whether the story made sense but if they told "the best story possible" how that all pans out too. Like I said, just kind of riffing off the top of my head.
There was no need for him to shoot with Brienne period. Their relationship was more of a growing mutual admiration and respect thing to me and not a romantic one (that's what made the Knighting such a great scene, if he Knighted her because he wanted to bang her that's not nearly as affective). Turning it into a one-night-stand cheapens the several seasons of interaction between the two and was an unnecessary error on the path toward his death with Cersei. It's similar to the line about never caring for the small folk, it had nothing to do with the plot and served to cheapen his developed character so why the hell is it in there?
I didn't track the transformational realization that Cersei was going to die. He'd already seen the Dragons in action before he decided to stay so her demise was on the table before his announced decision to stay in the north. He already knew that Danny was not-cool with her double-cross about not sending the army north to fight. He already knew she was pregnant with his child. He already knew that Cersei would never kneel to anyone. He already knew that Danny roasts people alive in public if they don't kneel.
What actually changed?
Doesn't change things all that significantly, but I had completely thought that it was more than a one night stand time wise. I thought we were looking at at least a few days, if not a bit more.
Huh...
It never occurred to me that it wasn't a one-night stand, but yeah there could have been days or even weeks in there I guess?
I don't know if that would make his leaving her crying without a real explanation better or worse?
We didn't really know what he was going to do, do you think she did? We had pretty sizable factions arguing that he was going down to kill her to save the lives of all of the people who would die fighting her (you know: the small people that he cared about until this week), and that he was going to join the love of his life in her moment of peril.
I stipulate that his ultimate end may have been a bullet point from GRRM, or at least a strategic decision that they made before the season was written, but the way they got there valued surprise/spectacle over character/story. Not like the Red or Purple Wedding or the beheading of Ned type of surprise, which seemed inevitable in retrospect, but surprise for surprise's sake.
I also think that while he probably has genuine love for Brienne, maybe being with her cemented his love for Cersei even more. She is the only one he ever has or ever could truly love.
As far as this being a bullet point from GRRM, I am skeptical. Jaime still being in love with her after everything could be part of it but I would be surprised if they die in each other's arms like they did in the show. But I also wonder if Cersei blows up the Sept in the books. And if she does, does Jaime know? And does Jaime know on the show? Maybe he suspects it deep down but it was never even a question. And that sucks.
He makes a fool of her, and it's gross.