805 - The Bells

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  • Doctor_NickDoctor_Nick Terminus
    Just kill the  nobles and the Court, very worrying for everyone.  But we don’t have time for nuance and Dany sliding into “madness” later. 
    Giovanni
  • chrisk said:
    Just gonna say I totally see Jon taking the throne because he doesn’t trust anyone  who wants the job to do it right and justly. 

    It’s VERY Jon to do something he doesn’t want to do out of a sense of duty. 
    Agreed. Jim's point that Jon has constantly been refusing the throne is in regards to Dany. Clearly he sees she must be dealt with and if she's gone, I can see him feeling honor bound by his sense of duty to take the throne.

    BUT a small part of me wouldn't be surprised if at the end he asks these two if there is room for one more on that sled...ha 
    What’s A.Ron drinking? And when did he die his hair red?
    MurderbearmylifeaskirkJames
  • edited May 16
    CapeGabe said:
    HBO should have cancelled those "Making of" after episode shows.

    Every time I see The Double D's speak on the "why" in an episode they say something so stupid it is maddening. There were things that didn't bother me at all watching the episode and then they explain their reasoning for doing it and it sounds so stupid.

    They would probably be better served letting people's head canon explain the episodes than what convoluted reasoning they are offering up.
    The making of things are different than the post-episode chats where D&D talk after the episode. The "Game Revealed" specials that they release after each episode are actually pretty cool just to see BTS and how they pull all of this together. It seems like they mostly feature everyone except D&D in those.

    The thing I think you are talking about are the "Inside the Episode" features that play right after the episode is over. And I agree that D&D have said some stupid shit in some of those this season.

    So that I don't sound crazy, here are the different features (they release them on their GameofThrones youtube channel):

    This is the "Game Revealed" for Episode 4:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwQV89TE8DQ

    This is the "Inside the Episode" for Episode 4 w/ D&D:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8K9XuPrXko
    Holy shit, I've never watched one of those inside the episodes and what the hell is that!  These guys are sitting there talking to the camera explaining beat for beat what's going on in these character's heads PUT THAT SHIT ON THE SCREEN you nerds you are not PART of the show.  I can't understand why anyone would want to watch that week to week or ever.

    ETA: Oh, that Game revealed thing is wonderful! I feel like the grinch my heart's grown too big, watching them all laughing behind the scenes.  Peter Dinklage on wires in front of a green screen?  Yes, please!  Thanks for sharing that!

  • Just kill the  nobles and the Court, very worrying for everyone.  But we don’t have time for nuance and Dany sliding into “madness” later. 
    There's no court and very few nobles are left. Cersei already blew them all up. 
  • One thing I think the episode did really well was spending as much time as it did on the small folk of King’s Landing and putting a face to the horror on display. It was sickening to watch at times, but necessary I think.

    It’s all too easy in big budget fantasy/SciFi/Superhero fare to focus on heroes and villains slugging it out, devastating cities in the process without ever showing the civilian cost, but here they went out of their way to show you their faces and the following the mother and daughter throughout I thought was a great element to add to the episode.

    If Arya ends up in a position of helping the survivors rebuild or something, getting some semblance of her humanity back and a new sense of purpose, then I will at least be satisfied with her arc.
    MurderbearSanguinePenguin
  • Thoughts for next time: 
    1) I could not help but think of Shireen with the charred little girl holding her horse - does Davos find that body and it sets him off for vengeance?

    2) Did anyone else think the Hound and Mountain plummeting into fire was a little Gollum and the ring into Mordor? 

    3) Somehow Sansa as functional ruler - elected maybe with different nobles ruling the sections of westeros
    SanguinePenguin
  • chriskchrisk Indianapolis
    edited May 16
    It's weird that the all-seeing, all-remembering Bran's primary function this season has been to ensure that order of succession is being properly followed. The old gods are very invested in men's ruling systems, it seems. 

    RIP Hodor. He died for feudalism. 
    CapeGabebudesignsken haleGanSanguinePenguinDoctor_Nicktelephoneofmadnessdarthcaedus1138
  • Better too many episodes with some filler than too few with weird abrupt compression. 
    People would complain about it either way.  It's a no-win situation.
    majjam0770SanguinePenguin
  • GREAT podcast this week. I think you set a new standard for reviewing a "controversial" work that you don't personally like.
    majjam0770chriskGanadampaszken haleGiovanni
  • asmallcat said:
    Oh online petitions. Literally the least someone can do. 
    Well, we could join together in prayer.


    asmallcatmylifeaskirkgguenot
  • For anyone who still doesn't understand the criticisms regarding Dany's arc or why it doesn't feel earned, and who are willing to listen without instantly dismissing contrary opinions or go on a rant about how people who don't like the episode, or the season are just haters, and are complaining just for the sake of it, I strongly recommend this video. 

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mlNyqhnc1M

    If you still disagree after, it's all good. My goal isn't really to change anyone's mind but to at least allow people to understand how people have come to be disappointed. I think this video does that well and it's much more articulate and well written than if i would have had to do it myself. 
    BloodyTaco
  • walktheskywalkthesky New York
    In reference to the scene with Dany, Tyrion, and Grey worm.  On the cast they felt the nod was to go along with Tyrion’s plan.  I disagree and say she doesn’t acknowledge Tyrion at all and is nodding to greyworm to go along with a planned ruthless attack.

    just my subjective .02
    Anominal
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    In reference to the scene with Dany, Tyrion, and Grey worm.  On the cast they felt the nod was to go along with Tyrion’s plan.  I disagree and say she doesn’t acknowledge Tyrion at all and is nodding to greyworm to go along with a planned ruthless attack.

    just my subjective .02
    Yes, to me watching it for the first time I knew that it was purposely vague response that didn't allow the viewer to know what she was going to do. I don't see how anyone took that as Dany definitely agreeing with Tyrion.

    Then after you watch Dany start torching people and Greyworm without missing a beat confidently start throwing spears into people, I don't know you couldn't see that in retrospect Dany and Greyworm were on the same page and they definitely weren't in positions to absolutely agree with Tyrion or give their word.

    I don't think a ruthless massacre was planned all along, but they were keeping their options open.
  • AnominalAnominal San Francisco Bay Area
    edited May 16
    In reference to the scene with Dany, Tyrion, and Grey worm.  On the cast they felt the nod was to go along with Tyrion’s plan.  I disagree and say she doesn’t acknowledge Tyrion at all and is nodding to greyworm to go along with a planned ruthless attack.

    just my subjective .02
    Yeah. I thought it was a maybe approval. An acknowledgement of his advice, and not an a outright refusal, but not agreement. Sort of just ignore what he said and wait on Dany's lead. 
    djcaudle01
  • edited May 16
    In reference to the scene with Dany, Tyrion, and Grey worm.  On the cast they felt the nod was to go along with Tyrion’s plan.  I disagree and say she doesn’t acknowledge Tyrion at all and is nodding to greyworm to go along with a planned ruthless attack.

    just my subjective .02
    Yes, to me watching it for the first time I knew that it was purposely vague response that didn't allow the viewer to know what she was going to do. I don't see how anyone took that as Dany definitely agreeing with Tyrion.

    Then after you watch Dany start torching people and Greyworm without missing a beat confidently start throwing spears into people, I don't know you couldn't see that in retrospect Dany and Greyworm were on the same page and they definitely weren't in positions to absolutely agree with Tyrion or give their word.

    I don't think a ruthless massacre was planned all along, but they were keeping their options open.

    This is exactly how I took the scene as well.  It was left ambiguous on purpose to leave the audience in suspense and to not lay out their cards in front of them as far as what Dany's plan is.  For me personally it worked but I can also understand how it didn't.  My biggest gripe against Jim and A.Ron specifically regarding this, and it's extremely minor and trivial, is that they always say that they need to show it on the screen and you can't make assumptions. I believe they made an assumption, given what was on screen that I think was very ambiguous, that Dany gave Grey Worm the nod agreeing to Tyrion's plan.  Again this is not me bashing on Jim and A.Ron as I support them in their opinions and feelings regarding the show even though I don't have the same feelings/opinions.  They did an amazing job on the episode 805 main coverage of explaining their reasons they had issues with the episode and I'm glad I listened to it. 
  • Boss Logic did this. Pretty awesome.


    "And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and her name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with her." 


    This has been bugging me more and more as this apparent reference is referenced online in reviews and whatnot.  Why the fuck are they introducing biblical metaphors and symbolism into a world in which the bible doesn't exist?  If this bible verse is really the intended symbolism, on a show which has wholesale discarded all the religious symbolism and prophecies that actually exist in its own universe...that just doesn't make sense to me why they would do that.
    BloodyTacoCapeGabedjcaudle01Thinkplease
  • Doctor_NickDoctor_Nick Terminus
    I think you’re kidding yourself if you think a little filler would get anywhere near the reaction this letdown has entailed. They’re not anyway equivalent (see the entire run of Better Call Saul as an example.)

    hoos30 said:
    Better too many episodes with some filler than too few with weird abrupt compression. 
    People would complain about it either way.  It's a no-win situation.

    Giovanni
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    edited May 16
    ken hale said:
    Boss Logic did this. Pretty awesome.


    "And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and her name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with her." 


    This has been bugging me more and more as this apparent reference is referenced online in reviews and whatnot.  Why the fuck are they introducing biblical metaphors and symbolism into a world in which the bible doesn't exist?  If this bible verse is really the intended symbolism, on a show which has wholesale discarded all the religious symbolism and prophecies that actually exist in its own universe...that just doesn't make sense to me why they would do that.
    I guess the same reason that Aslan in the Chronicles of Narnia is basically supposed to be Jesus in an imaginary world where there are talking centaurs and talking beavers running around. In the Hardhome episode, they also made a fairly obvious reference to the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse (pictured below), so it's not the first time. And of course, Jon Snow is Jesus who died for the sins of all Freefolk.

    Tons of fictional works set in made up universes are riddled with biblical imagery and parallels that don't really add anything super important to the story, but are just there for people to say "Oh yeah, that's cool"



    ken hale
  • ken hale said:
    Boss Logic did this. Pretty awesome.


    "And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and her name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with her." 


    This has been bugging me more and more as this apparent reference is referenced online in reviews and whatnot.  Why the fuck are they introducing biblical metaphors and symbolism into a world in which the bible doesn't exist?  If this bible verse is really the intended symbolism, on a show which has wholesale discarded all the religious symbolism and prophecies that actually exist in its own universe...that just doesn't make sense to me why they would do that.
    Good take, it’s sort of like how lots of people talk about White, Brown and Black issues in the GoT world (like White Privilege or Slavery) even though 99% of slavery in this world is white on white, brown on brown, etc...you can’t say there is a problem with “white savior syndrome” when Dany conquered Yunkai because they’ve probably never seen a white person and they don’t live in a world where Africans were sold and shipped across the sea for 400 years of enslavment to eventually be freed and now living through a changing social landscape of a melting pot country...you just can’t apply modern Western social terminology dealing with racial studies in our world with Esos and Westeros.

    Plus Dany was basically a slave sold into a foreign culture where she then became a sex slave...so in some ways there was hardly a difference between her and the slaves she set free which is why I think she was so empathetic towards their plight and why she had so little regard for the people of King’s Landing...it’s possible she was so alienated from that culture that she had no sympathy at all for them.  She even mentions this idea when arguing that they should rise up and overthrow Cersei...like she was already justifying what was about to come.
  • Good take, it’s sort of like how lots of people talk about White, Brown and Black issues in the GoT world (like White Privilege or Slavery) even though 99% of slavery in this world is white on white, brown on brown, etc...you can’t say there is a problem with “white savior syndrome” when Dany conquered Yunkai because they’ve probably never seen a white person and they don’t live in a world where Africans were sold and shipped across the sea for 400 years of enslavment to eventually be freed and now living through a changing social landscape of a melting pot country...you just can’t apply modern Western social terminology dealing with racial studies in our world with Esos and Westeros.
    This is sarcasm, right?
  • JamesJames southern California
    I haven't read through the whole thread, so apologies if anyone has suggested this already:

    One problem with tv/movie adaptations of books or book series will always be that there will never be enough screen time to get into the nuance that exists in books. The additional problem here is that you had published novels to adapt for 5 seasons, and bullet points for the rest. Some stories, including red herrings, are going to get dropped, characters will be shuffled on/off quickly, etc.

    Based on the way the plotline played out in the series, how much extra time would they have had to develop all of the motivations and background of the Cercei plot if they had simply excised the White Walkers from the TV show? There are character arcs and episodes and battles that would disappear but you would be left with more time to develop King's Landing.

    We're currently watching a final 6 episode arc in which the entire first half of the season was about the northern zombie battle which, now that it's over, had almost zero effect on the end of the story.

    Whatever GRRM is planning to do with the WW in the books, in the show that plot essentially added up to shoe-horning in a half-dozen episodes of Walking Dead into the House of Cards plot line.

    Of course the D's started this whole project not knowing they would end up here, but if there were any inkling of this could losing the WW plot have tightened up the rest of the show? Thoughts?
    ken hale
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    edited May 17
    ken hale said:
    Boss Logic did this. Pretty awesome.


    "And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and her name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with her." 

    This has been bugging me more and more as this apparent reference is referenced online in reviews and whatnot.  Why the fuck are they introducing biblical metaphors and symbolism into a world in which the bible doesn't exist?  If this bible verse is really the intended symbolism, on a show which has wholesale discarded all the religious symbolism and prophecies that actually exist in its own universe...that just doesn't make sense to me why they would do that.
    Good take, it’s sort of like how lots of people talk about White, Brown and Black issues in the GoT world (like White Privilege or Slavery) even though 99% of slavery in this world is white on white, brown on brown, etc...you can’t say there is a problem with “white savior syndrome” when Dany conquered Yunkai because they’ve probably never seen a white person and they don’t live in a world where Africans were sold and shipped across the sea for 400 years of enslavment to eventually be freed and now living through a changing social landscape of a melting pot country...you just can’t apply modern Western social terminology dealing with racial studies in our world with Esos and Westeros.
    GRRM talks about this "white savior" subject and that scene in an interview.

    In the books and in the show, these people aren't meant to be black or brown people. It's all mixtures of races that are slaves and citizens, with tons of white people being slaves and part of the Unsullied. It's meant to be like Roman slavery. Roman slavery was not based on ideas of race. Roman slaves were drawn from all over Europe and the Mediterranean, including Gaul, Hispania, North Africa, Syria, Germany, Britannia, the Balkans, Greece, etc. 

    Because of the landscape of Essos, they filmed Danys scenes in Morocco, and therefore they had to get Moroccan extras, who are "brown."
    If they had filmed the scenes in Northern Ireland, you would have had a bunch of pasty white people holding her up. That's why when Dany is in Westeros and they are filming in Northern Ireland, you can see many of her Unsullied are white guys. Hell, Daario is a white British guy and he was a slave growing up in Essos.

    Here is GRRM's interview about that scene and his thoughts on the sexism and racism accusations against GOT:




    ken haletelephoneofmadness
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    Also, I think Dany's plight was much more similar to Westerosi women who are commonly sold or traded by their fathers as wives to strange men, than people who grew in literal chains.

    You don't think the Westerosi Ladies are forced/expected to have sex with the husbands they were told they had to marry?
    djcaudle01
  • How does dragonfire work? When Drogon executes people at Dany’s behest there is very little kinetic force Yet he is able to topple stone structures with his dragonfire.  Does he ‘dial it back’ for executions?
    ken hale
  • ken hale said:
    Boss Logic did this. Pretty awesome.


    "And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and her name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with her." 

    This has been bugging me more and more as this apparent reference is referenced online in reviews and whatnot.  Why the fuck are they introducing biblical metaphors and symbolism into a world in which the bible doesn't exist?  If this bible verse is really the intended symbolism, on a show which has wholesale discarded all the religious symbolism and prophecies that actually exist in its own universe...that just doesn't make sense to me why they would do that.
    Good take, it’s sort of like how lots of people talk about White, Brown and Black issues in the GoT world (like White Privilege or Slavery) even though 99% of slavery in this world is white on white, brown on brown, etc...you can’t say there is a problem with “white savior syndrome” when Dany conquered Yunkai because they’ve probably never seen a white person and they don’t live in a world where Africans were sold and shipped across the sea for 400 years of enslavment to eventually be freed and now living through a changing social landscape of a melting pot country...you just can’t apply modern Western social terminology dealing with racial studies in our world with Esos and Westeros.
    GRRM talks about this "white savior" subject and that scene in an interview.

    In the books and in the show, these people aren't meant to be black or brown people. It's all mixtures of races that are slaves and citizens, with tons of white people being slaves and part of the Unsullied. It's meant to be like Roman slavery. Roman slavery was not based on ideas of race. Roman slaves were drawn from all over Europe and the Mediterranean, including Gaul, Hispania, North Africa, Syria, Germany, Britannia, the Balkans, Greece, etc. 

    Because of the landscape of Essos, they filmed Danys scenes in Morocco, and therefore they had to get Moroccan extras, who are "brown."
    If they had filmed the scenes in Northern Ireland, you would have had a bunch of pasty white people holding her up. That's why when Dany is in Westeros and they are filming in Northern Ireland, you can see many of her Unsullied are white guys. Hell, Daario is a white British guy and he was a slave growing up in Essos.

    Here is GRRM's interview about that scene and his thoughts on the sexism and racism accusations against GOT:




    I mean, they have dragons. They couldn't get a mix of races in terms of extras?

    djcaudle01ken hale
  • Good take, it’s sort of like how lots of people talk about White, Brown and Black issues in the GoT world (like White Privilege or Slavery) even though 99% of slavery in this world is white on white, brown on brown, etc...you can’t say there is a problem with “white savior syndrome” when Dany conquered Yunkai because they’ve probably never seen a white person and they don’t live in a world where Africans were sold and shipped across the sea for 400 years of enslavment to eventually be freed and now living through a changing social landscape of a melting pot country...you just can’t apply modern Western social terminology dealing with racial studies in our world with Esos and Westeros.
    This is sarcasm, right?
    No, but I think maybe a clarification:  I’m speaking about “in show commentary” here, you can and should absolutely make COMPARISONS with the show’s  social and literary motifs...my point is the idea that someone living in Westeros or Esos would be applying social motifs from 2019 America to whatever date Slavery’s Bay is projecting and silly...it would be as if someone said “can’t wait for Dany to take over, ever since Hilary lost we have been pining for a woman’s rule!”

    So back to Ken Hale’s comment, biblical symbolism is fine for us to make analogies and ponderences but not within the direct context of the show...

    Does that make more sense?, I should have clarified that in the original lol 
  • ken hale said:
    Boss Logic did this. Pretty awesome.


    "And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and her name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with her." 


    This has been bugging me more and more as this apparent reference is referenced online in reviews and whatnot.  Why the fuck are they introducing biblical metaphors and symbolism into a world in which the bible doesn't exist?  If this bible verse is really the intended symbolism, on a show which has wholesale discarded all the religious symbolism and prophecies that actually exist in its own universe...that just doesn't make sense to me why they would do that.
    Good take, it’s sort of like how lots of people talk about White, Brown and Black issues in the GoT world (like White Privilege or Slavery) even though 99% of slavery in this world is white on white, brown on brown, etc...you can’t say there is a problem with “white savior syndrome” when Dany conquered Yunkai because they’ve probably never seen a white person and they don’t live in a world where Africans were sold and shipped across the sea for 400 years of enslavment to eventually be freed and now living through a changing social landscape of a melting pot country...you just can’t apply modern Western social terminology dealing with racial studies in our world with Esos and Westeros.

    Plus Dany was basically a slave sold into a foreign culture where she then became a sex slave...so in some ways there was hardly a difference between her and the slaves she set free which is why I think she was so empathetic towards their plight and why she had so little regard for the people of King’s Landing...it’s possible she was so alienated from that culture that she had no sympathy at all for them.  She even mentions this idea when arguing that they should rise up and overthrow Cersei...like she was already justifying what was about to come.
    She was a wife, a different kind of slave. Her story has parallels in history as well as today. 
  • Doctor_NickDoctor_Nick Terminus
    It's a lot more than that - a ton of time was spent on Jon Snow at the wall and beyond it, unifying the Wildlings and the civilized folk.  Given the fact it turned into a pretty big nothingburger for the realm, retrospectively cutting the zombie plot probably would have been helpful.

    James said:

    Whatever GRRM is planning to do with the WW in the books, in the show that plot essentially added up to shoe-horning in a half-dozen episodes of Walking Dead into the House of Cards plot line.

    Of course the D's started this whole project not knowing they would end up here, but if there were any inkling of this could losing the WW plot have tightened up the rest of the show? Thoughts?

    ken hale
  • CeciliaM said:
    ken hale said:
    Boss Logic did this. Pretty awesome.


    "And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and her name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with her." 


    This has been bugging me more and more as this apparent reference is referenced online in reviews and whatnot.  Why the fuck are they introducing biblical metaphors and symbolism into a world in which the bible doesn't exist?  If this bible verse is really the intended symbolism, on a show which has wholesale discarded all the religious symbolism and prophecies that actually exist in its own universe...that just doesn't make sense to me why they would do that.
    Good take, it’s sort of like how lots of people talk about White, Brown and Black issues in the GoT world (like White Privilege or Slavery) even though 99% of slavery in this world is white on white, brown on brown, etc...you can’t say there is a problem with “white savior syndrome” when Dany conquered Yunkai because they’ve probably never seen a white person and they don’t live in a world where Africans were sold and shipped across the sea for 400 years of enslavment to eventually be freed and now living through a changing social landscape of a melting pot country...you just can’t apply modern Western social terminology dealing with racial studies in our world with Esos and Westeros.

    Plus Dany was basically a slave sold into a foreign culture where she then became a sex slave...so in some ways there was hardly a difference between her and the slaves she set free which is why I think she was so empathetic towards their plight and why she had so little regard for the people of King’s Landing...it’s possible she was so alienated from that culture that she had no sympathy at all for them.  She even mentions this idea when arguing that they should rise up and overthrow Cersei...like she was already justifying what was about to come.
    She was a wife, a different kind of slave. Her story has parallels in history as well as today. 
    Agreed...I just clarified for someone else that I’m not saying we shouldn’t make parallels or anologies to the show with our own history or modern day paradigm, my point was that within the show itself there should not be these references...

    I find it interesting that everyone is wanting to have a nuanced conversation about marriage, sex and rape between Dany and Drogo but when Sansa married Ramsey people were rage quitting the show...I’m completely open to the idea that I’m missing something here so please anyone help me out 

  • Good take, it’s sort of like how lots of people talk about White, Brown and Black issues in the GoT world (like White Privilege or Slavery) even though 99% of slavery in this world is white on white, brown on brown, etc...you can’t say there is a problem with “white savior syndrome” when Dany conquered Yunkai because they’ve probably never seen a white person and they don’t live in a world where Africans were sold and shipped across the sea for 400 years of enslavment to eventually be freed and now living through a changing social landscape of a melting pot country...you just can’t apply modern Western social terminology dealing with racial studies in our world with Esos and Westeros.
    This is sarcasm, right?
    No, but I think maybe a clarification:  I’m speaking about “in show commentary” here, you can and should absolutely make COMPARISONS with the show’s  social and literary motifs...my point is the idea that someone living in Westeros or Esos would be applying social motifs from 2019 America to whatever date Slavery’s Bay is projecting and silly...it would be as if someone said “can’t wait for Dany to take over, ever since Hilary lost we have been pining for a woman’s rule!”

    So back to Ken Hale’s comment, biblical symbolism is fine for us to make analogies and ponderences but not within the direct context of the show...

    Does that make more sense?, I should have clarified that in the original lol 
    I guess I don't understand what you mean "in show commentary." Is someone quoting Revelations in the show? I don't know if this an allusion to the "pale horse", and if it is, that it's successful, but that doesn't mean allusions don't have merit.

    It's fine to use a kind of cultural relativism to define the world and characters, but ultimately this is "art" being consumed in our world and the creators have to at least try to be conscious of how it will be interpreted. Just like they're aware of our cultural context when they're trying to evoke something with a white horse.

    The show doesn't really mirror African Slavery in North America, but it certainly evokes images of a "white savior." So if you're saying we should draw parallels ourselves, I don't see your issue.
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