806 - The Iron Throne

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  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    Yeah, I am cool with it being a little ambiguous. I think though with Tyrion using part of their words as motivation for Jon, the fact that he was still trying to justify to himself until the very end he was supposed to support Dany because he said he would, talking with Tyrion about him visiting him at CB and Tyrion pissing off the Wall, telling Arya to come visit him there, that damn black cloak. Ha! I feel it points more towards him being in the NW.

    But actually, maybe for once in his life he did decide to do the less than honorable thing. Not to do Avengers Endgame spoilers but there is a character that decides to live his own life for a change. Maybe Jon finally got smart and decided that's what he wants to do.
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    edited May 21
    Jon has broken his vows well before the Dany stuff, even if it was partially in service of his missions. And although i didn't personally consider it breaking his oath because of his death, the S6 episode where Jon says "my watch has ended" to Edd at the end of the episode is titled "Oathbreaker" which insinuates that at least some people, including the writers, think that there is room for interpretation that he broke his Nights Watch oath despite his death loophole.

    This is the finale shot I'm referencing, fwiw. At the end (not in the gif), Jon looks up and forward decisively, the music becomes upbeat and he marches forward with "his" people.


    SanguinePenguin
  • Schlupp said:
    My new rule is: don't watch any show beyond season 1 unless the creators have set a limit of 3 seasons, or the entire show has already been released and reviewed. I wasted years caring about The Walking Dead. I wasted years caring about Game of Thrones. Fool me -- you can't get fooled again.
    The expanse is really good, consistently good writing and author failsaves and everything. The creators had 3 seasons on sifi and now it's a reboot on amazon, so within your own rules you could watch 4 seasons without beeing fooled. :-)

    I watch The Expanse. I think it's... okay. I'm not invested in it.
  • Ok, I get it, you're not that guy. :-)
    I would love to hear Amos opinion about the last season of game of thrones.
    Probably: "Huh, that's weird." or "I know you want me to care about the ending of game of thrones but I don't, and I never will."
    telephoneofmadnesshoos30
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    Jon has broken his vows well before the Dany stuff, even if it was partially in service of his missions. And although i didn't personally consider it breaking his oath because of his death, the S6 episode where Jon says "my watch has ended" to Edd at the end of the episode is titled "Oathbreaker" which insinuates that at least some people, including the writers, think that there is room for interpretation that he broke his Nights Watch oath despite his death loophole.

    This is the finale shot I'm referencing, fwiw. At the end (not in the gif), Jon looks up and forward decisively, the music becomes upbeat and he marches forward with "his" people.


    I do think he got by on a technicality the first time around by dying his way out of duty. But that's the sad tale of Jon Snow. He got the 1up and left, won back his house, helped (kinda) kill the army of the undead, helped (again kinda) defeat the evil Cersei to put a (sort of) rightful heir back on the throne and then killed that ruler when they turned evil even though he loved her. And after all that he wasn't thanked but was reassigned back into the NW's service.

    I will say though that with this back and forth, I am a lot more open to the idea that Jon said screw it, I'm going to live with the Wildlings. Who would want to deal with that bullshit anymore?

    But whether or not he did that, I still contend that the NW isn't entirely pointless. It's not like all of mankind will now live in harmony forever. There will still be war and threats of war. You have a friggin tree wizard sitting on the throne. The threat of magical beings returning will always be there too. The Night is dark and full of terrors.
    alexander.klassen
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    edited May 21
    I will say too though that the fact that Grey Worm either didn't IMMEDIATELY murder Jon or was just cool with him living out his life makes little to no sense. I guess because he knew Dany loved him? Or maybe ultimately what Dany was doing was wrong and even he couldn't get behind it? That was the biggest stretch of the episode for me.
    Doctor_Nicktelephoneofmadnessalexander.klassenSchlupp
  • I think the Nights watch is important as a place to put prisoners or noblemen who are out of favor but too important to kill. The whole chastity thing seems like it served the purpose of cutting off potential heirs more than serve some higher purpose. Also the kingdoms are still in flux. The NW could be important still to watch the wall and keep a source of power and organization at a border. 

    I do do wonder if Sansa is technically in charge of it since it is in the North now or is it a group that is sort of the property of both kingdoms. 

    Jon is still a young man and his life has had many ups and downs. Who knows what the future will bring. I like that it is kind of open. Maybe he can build the NW to be a more open and useful group to the new era?

    i also wonder why Ned encouraged Jon to take the black without telling him the truth first. Seems a not very honorable thing to do. 
  • I think the Nights watch is important as a place to put prisoners or noblemen who are out of favor but too important to kill. The whole chastity thing seems like it served the purpose of cutting off potential heirs more than serve some higher purpose. Also the kingdoms are still in flux. The NW could be important still to watch the wall and keep a source of power and organization at a border. 

    I do do wonder if Sansa is technically in charge of it since it is in the North now or is it a group that is sort of the property of both kingdoms. 

    Jon is still a young man and his life has had many ups and downs. Who knows what the future will bring. I like that it is kind of open. Maybe he can build the NW to be a more open and useful group to the new era?

    i also wonder why Ned encouraged Jon to take the black without telling him the truth first. Seems a not very honorable thing to do. 

    Maybe Sansa's first act is to demand Bran rebuilds Eastwatch by the Sea and all new Night Watch members have to be sailed to there and not travel through the north.
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    Sansa is cold blooded. Her first act will be to send the NW after the deserter Jon Snow! Ha
    All the ChickensSanguinePenguinrkcrawf
  • Doctor_NickDoctor_Nick Terminus
    I actually think Grey Worm ganking Jon Snow actually helps balance out the rest of the storybook Stark endings and makes total sense....  

    I will say too though that the fact that Grey Worm either didn't IMMEDIATELY murder Jon or was just cool with him living out his life makes little to no sense. I guess because he knew Dany loved him? Or maybe ultimately what Dany was doing was wrong and even he couldn't get behind it? That was the biggest stretch of the episode for me.

    awookiee
  • The single stupidest moment in the episode was Tyrion telling Greyworm "hey, if we - your enemies-  choose a king on the spot you have to recognize him" and Greyworm, for no reason whatsoever, rolling with it. Why? Why not kill Jon?
    Murderbear
  • Natter CastNatter Cast San Francisco, CA
    edited May 21
    On the Brienne thing, this was a moment that I thought actually worked. I agree that the hookup back in Winterfell wasn't the best thing, but it's within Brienne's character that she would develop romantic feelings for Jaime. She developed a crush on Renly because he was kind and respectful to her. That's her soft spot. Once she saw how much Jaime respected her, it would make sense that she would develop feelings for him. Especially in the midst of a war to save humanity. Bit of a romantic milieu, that.

    I don't buy that it got to "don't leave me" and "I'm hateful" and all that soap opera crazy that we saw, but I've always found it to be a nice piece of entanglement between Brienne and Sansa that Brienne actually harbors some of the girlish feelings Sansa had (especially in the early chapters) and that Sansa actually harbors some of the courage and nobility that Brienne has. They pair well as supporting heroines.

    So I'm good with her getting a little choked up and giving Jaime his redemptive final statement. It fits.
    MurderbearSanguinePenguin
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
  • LordByLordBy Utah
    Duuuuuuuuuuude.
    Wow, well played.
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    edited May 21
    I love Ozzy Man's comments on the season, criticism, and the series overall starting at around 7:50 mark through to the finish.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eXvXUS0lu0

  • I feel like everyone is forgetting some major things here about Jon and the Night's Watch.

    • The Night's watch was totally decimated and Castle Black was abandoned when the Night King busted through it. Everyone who was left went south to Winterfell.
    • Even way before that, the whole celibacy thing with the Night's Watch was not really enforced. They didn't take wives per se, but a lot of them had women in town as well as visiting the brothel regularly.
    • There isn't anyone at Castle Black in the scene where Jon is walking through that isn't a Wildling other than the two people who were conveniently there to escort Jon. 
    • Spring is coming (see crocus popping through the snow) and what is left of the wall is probably going to melt, so then what is left? A castle with nothing to guard? 
    • Jon was really at his best when he was running with the Wildlings (even though it was supposed to be a spy mission). That was the only place he ever really fit in and was able to meet the expectations of the people who he was running with.

    Therefore, it was a great ending for Jon! He is not going back. He is now going to live with the Wildlings. I have decided it and now we can stop arguing. HAHA

    SanguinePenguin
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    edited May 21
    CeciliaM said:
    I feel like everyone is forgetting some major things here about Jon and the Night's Watch.

    • The Night's watch was totally decimated and Castle Black was abandoned when the Night King busted through it. Everyone who was left went south to Winterfell.
    • Even way before that, the whole celibacy thing with the Night's Watch was not really enforced. They didn't take wives per se, but a lot of them had women in town as well as visiting the brothel regularly.
    • There isn't anyone at Castle Black in the scene where Jon is walking through that isn't a Wildling other than the two people who were conveniently there to escort Jon. 
    • Spring is coming (see crocus popping through the snow) and what is left of the wall is probably going to melt, so then what is left? A castle with nothing to guard? 
    • Jon was really at his best when he was running with the Wildlings (even though it was supposed to be a spy mission). That was the only place he ever really fit in and was able to meet the expectations of the people who he was running with.

    Therefore, it was a great ending for Jon! He is not going back. He is now going to live with the Wildlings. I have decided it and now we can stop arguing. HAHA

    The only thing I would disagree with is that the wall will melt now. The Wall has seen many springs, summers, Falls and winters in the north. The seasons don't cycle through yearly in Westeros like they do IRL, but they do come a minimum of every few years on a regular basis. So the wall has survived spring and summer many times, or at least the part of the Wall facing the south.

    The only wildcard is that north of the wall was once a lush green paradise during the Spring/Summer before the NK was created, so I would guess that it will go back to normal during the spring/summer seasons north of the wall now. Does that mean it will get warm enough to melt the wall now that the North-North is going to start also having seasons like the rest of the realm? I doubt it, but I guess it could melt some over the next hundreds of years if temperatures rise and there are especially long Summer years.

    Also, almost all of the wall is intact still. The only part that was knocked down was a relatively small part at EastWatch. I still think it's useless, outside of being a place to send exiled lords and criminals you don't want to execute.


    majjam0770
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    Why on earth do people (namely, podcasters) keep saying that Jaime had sex with Brienne 1 night (or 1 time)? They were shacking up for at least a couple of weeks. They had sex the night after the battle was over on celebration night, then the next day or two Jon and Dany's crew departed from Winterfell. 

    Sansa gets a raven after an undisclosed amount of time later saying that Rhaegal and Missandei had been killed, but that would have been at least a week or probably a couple of weeks after Dany and her crew had departed from Winterfell. We find Jaime still shacking up with Brienne the night after Sansa tells him about about Cersei killing Rhaegal and executing  Missandei, so you have to imagine they slept together in that room each of those nights during that couple of weeks after they first hooked up.


    UnderwoodawookieeCeciliaMSchlupprkcrawf
  • CeciliaM said:
    I feel like everyone is forgetting some major things here about Jon and the Night's Watch.

    • The Night's watch was totally decimated and Castle Black was abandoned when the Night King busted through it. Everyone who was left went south to Winterfell.

    I thought they came through at Eastwatch by the Sea not Castle Black
  • CapeGabe said:
    CeciliaM said:
    I feel like everyone is forgetting some major things here about Jon and the Night's Watch.

    • The Night's watch was totally decimated and Castle Black was abandoned when the Night King busted through it. Everyone who was left went south to Winterfell.

    I thought they came through at Eastwatch by the Sea not Castle Black
    They did come through East watch by the sea but when word spread to Castle Black it was abandoned by the Nights Watch (Dolorous Ed and companions running into Tormund at The Last Hearth).
    CeciliaMSanguinePenguin
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    I need this show.

    Also, there is plenty of evidence that there are lands west of westeros. The proto Iron Born who first settled the Iron Islands were from lands west of Westeros. At the very worst, Arya would run into the most eastern part of Essos that no one has explored, unless we believe in the Flat Planetos theory.


    majjam0770CeciliaMSanguinePenguin
  • I don't know if this will enhance you enjoyment of the ending or not but here goes.

    Initially, the as yet unwritten last book in the ASOIAF series, "A Dream of Spring," was given the provisional title "A Time For Wolves". So we always knew that the Starks would be coming out on top, winning the "game". It was planned that way all along.

    So, what they did was tie the fate of the surviving Starks to the names of their direwolves:

    Bran's direwolf was named Summer which represents the hope after the long winter. So he became the King of the Six Kingdoms.

    Sansa's direwolf was Lady. This led to her becoming the Lady of Winterfell and the Queen in the North.

    Arya's direwolf Nymeria was named after the warrior Queen Nymeria who fled Essos by sea to find a new home, first in the Summer Isles then on to what is now Westeros.

    And Jon's Ghost, well, ghosts exist outside the realms of men, apart from the living. So logically, he rejoined the Night's Watch as the 1000th Lord Commander, (or the King Beyond the Wall depending on how you interpret the final scene).

    So the ending actually made sense. The issues I have with this season, especially the finale, revolve around how they got all of the characters to where they needed to be and the unanswered questions they left open.
    MurderbearDoctor_NickDaveyMacHatorianSanguinePenguinbbordrkcrawf
  • MrXMrX CO
    edited May 21
    Bald Move should try to get Aaron Rodgers as a guest - he has takes:



  • MrX said:
    Bald Move should try to get Aaron Rodgers as a guest - he has takes:




    Not a horrible take. 
    MurderbearSanguinePenguin
  • Natter CastNatter Cast San Francisco, CA
    Why didn't Grey Worm kill Jon? He wanted to...but the Master would not approve.

    #TorgoNeruda
  • Teresa from ConcordTeresa from Concord Concord, California
    So was Bran an evil force who knew Dany was going to massacre innocent people?  And he let it happen so he could become king?  
    I think that's a safe assumption, they had Bran acknowledge that he knew what was going to happen with the council for a reason. Or maybe I'm giving the writers too much credit and they didn't realize what that line meant in relation to the rest of the season. 
    I thought it was Bran attempting to make a joke. I didn’t take him literally. 
    CapeGabeSanguinePenguin
  • Natter CastNatter Cast San Francisco, CA
    Head canon: Drogon burned the throne because he knew it was the one thing Dany wanted it and if she can't have it no one can. 
    SanguinePenguin
  • A ron sounds so sad/angry in this final episode. I genuinely feel bummed listening to it. 

    I’ve noticed those who are really invested in the series (a lot of podcasters and journalists who comment and critique on the show) are totally outside of themselves. Everyone I’ve spoken to about this season (IRL) loves it and felt the conclusion was pretty fitting given that there is absolutely zero source material - meaning the story is inevitably less complex and truncated. But those people don’t geek out as much as me and listen to podcasts etc. I think the a rons and Dave Chen’s and Mallory rubins of the world have lost sight of two things:

    1) it’s not you’re show. Might sound harsh but this show doesn’t belong to the fans. All of the creative decisions that you’re all lambasting were made with the intention to create the best thing they could (Also *they have no books*). Every critique I’ve heard is essentially around how said commentator would have set it up better...than the creators...as Sophie turner said in her ET interview this week: that is disrespectful (and honestly kind of delusional).  

    2) you - the thought leaders in this community - have an outsized impact on the general conversation online. So it’s a bit of a viscous cycle. Joanna Robinson writes 6 articles that come out 30 seconds after the show ends about how the show runners fucked up and then records 3 podcasts about how everyone thinks they fucked up? That’s a bit crazy making as a listened.  

    Ultimately, it used to be really fun to hear you all dissect and critique the show (talk about what you liked and didn’t like) but it’s become suuuuper depressing since the show ran past the books. 

    I want to state that this ending is pretty gorgeous IMO and the breaks in logic and storytelling are easy to forgive for me because (as George stated last week) the creators are missing approximately 3,000 pages of story. 
    SanguinePenguinwalktheskyrkcrawf
  • Doctor_NickDoctor_Nick Terminus
    edited May 22
    I doubt the show would have generated nearly the audience and critical acclaim it had had it started off with the quality of the last few seasons. Disappointing people is a tough thing, the D&D’s cut short the end on purpose. I don’t know why they apparently don’t have the sense of ownership for Game of Thrones that the Villigang have for the Breaking Bad world.   I don’t think it’s much of a stretch to think you could’ve found people to do the last few seasons better. 

    Dividing the blame between GRRM and he D&Ds is purely academic. It’s the end product that matters. 

    Have you considered the idea that the fandom is actually honest? That there’s actually a significant quality drop off that people are legitimately complaining about?  Look at Mr. Robot for example, the 2nd season was crapped on but I’m pretty sure the overwhelming majority of fans have climbed back on board after Season 3. The opposite has been happening with GoT 
    Mthomp32 said:
    A ron sounds so sad/angry in this final episode. I genuinely feel bummed listening to it. 

    I’ve noticed those who are really invested in the series (a lot of podcasters and journalists who comment and critique on the show) are totally outside of themselves. Everyone I’ve spoken to about this season (IRL) loves it and felt the conclusion was pretty fitting given that there is absolutely zero source material - meaning the story is inevitably less complex and truncated. But those people don’t geek out as much as me and listen to podcasts etc. I think the a rons and Dave Chen’s and Mallory rubins of the world have lost sight of two things:

    1) it’s not you’re show. Might sound harsh but this show doesn’t belong to the fans. All of the creative decisions that you’re all lambasting were made with the intention to create the best thing they could (Also *they have no books*). Every critique I’ve heard is essentially around how said commentator would have set it up better...than the creators...as Sophie turner said in her ET interview this week: that is disrespectful (and honestly kind of delusional).  

    2) you - the thought leaders in this community - have an outsized impact on the general conversation online. So it’s a bit of a viscous cycle. Joanna Robinson writes 6 articles that come out 30 seconds after the show ends about how the show runners fucked up and then records 3 podcasts about how everyone thinks they fucked up? That’s a bit crazy making as a listened.  

    Ultimately, it used to be really fun to hear you all dissect and critique the show (talk about what you liked and didn’t like) but it’s become suuuuper depressing since the show ran past the books. 

    I want to state that this ending is pretty gorgeous IMO and the breaks in logic and storytelling are easy to forgive for me because (as George stated last week) the creators are missing approximately 3,000 pages of story. 

    majjam0770GiovannitelephoneofmadnessBloodyTaco
  • MichelleMichelle California
    A friend shared this with me today. I love it. :smile:



    MurderbearSanguinePenguintelephoneofmadnessCory
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