806 - The Iron Throne

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Comments

  • CapeGabe said:
    CeciliaM said:
    I feel like everyone is forgetting some major things here about Jon and the Night's Watch.

    • The Night's watch was totally decimated and Castle Black was abandoned when the Night King busted through it. Everyone who was left went south to Winterfell.

    I thought they came through at Eastwatch by the Sea not Castle Black
    I should have said when the Night King busted through the wall.. sorry. But yeah, castle black was definitely abandoned as well.
  • CeciliaM said:
    I feel like everyone is forgetting some major things here about Jon and the Night's Watch.

    • The Night's watch was totally decimated and Castle Black was abandoned when the Night King busted through it. Everyone who was left went south to Winterfell.
    • Even way before that, the whole celibacy thing with the Night's Watch was not really enforced. They didn't take wives per se, but a lot of them had women in town as well as visiting the brothel regularly.
    • There isn't anyone at Castle Black in the scene where Jon is walking through that isn't a Wildling other than the two people who were conveniently there to escort Jon. 
    • Spring is coming (see crocus popping through the snow) and what is left of the wall is probably going to melt, so then what is left? A castle with nothing to guard? 
    • Jon was really at his best when he was running with the Wildlings (even though it was supposed to be a spy mission). That was the only place he ever really fit in and was able to meet the expectations of the people who he was running with.

    Therefore, it was a great ending for Jon! He is not going back. He is now going to live with the Wildlings. I have decided it and now we can stop arguing. HAHA

    The only thing I would disagree with is that the wall will melt now. The Wall has seen many springs, summers, Falls and winters in the north. The seasons don't cycle through yearly in Westeros like they do IRL, but they do come a minimum of every few years on a regular basis. So the wall has survived spring and summer many times, or at least the part of the Wall facing the south.

    The only wildcard is that north of the wall was once a lush green paradise during the Spring/Summer before the NK was created, so I would guess that it will go back to normal during the spring/summer seasons north of the wall now. Does that mean it will get warm enough to melt the wall now that the North-North is going to start also having seasons like the rest of the realm? I doubt it, but I guess it could melt some over the next hundreds of years if temperatures rise and there are especially long Summer years.

    Also, almost all of the wall is intact still. The only part that was knocked down was a relatively small part at EastWatch. I still think it's useless, outside of being a place to send exiled lords and criminals you don't want to execute.


    I was thinking that north of the wall has always been frozen and now it is going to melt because the Night King and whatever magic created him and the wall is broken, so the world up there is not going to be frozen any more. We saw the crocus popping through the snow north of the Wall, which is something that conceivably has not happened for many centuries, so I was thinking it would eventually melt as well. In fact when you think about the wall melting, that would cause a temporary environmental disaster so it's a good thing everyone left from there! :) 

    I guess I just made up all this in my head, I didn't read it anywhere or anything so IDK if other people believe this or not haha.
  • Michelle said:
    A friend shared this with me today. I love it. :smile:



    As long as she doesn’t end up in West World. 
    CeciliaMSanguinePenguinawookiee
  • I doubt the show would have generated nearly the audience and critical acclaim it had had it started off with the quality of the last few seasons. Disappointing people is a tough thing, the D&D’s cut short the end on purpose. I don’t know why they apparently don’t have the sense of ownership for Game of Thrones that the Villigang have for the Breaking Bad world.   I don’t think it’s much of a stretch to think you could’ve found people to do the last few seasons better. 

    Dividing the blame between GRRM and he D&Ds is purely academic. It’s the end product that matters. 

    Have you considered the idea that the fandom is actually honest? That there’s actually a significant quality drop off that people are legitimately complaining about?  Look at Mr. Robot for example, the 2nd season was crapped on but I’m pretty sure the overwhelming majority of fans have climbed back on board after Season 3. The opposite has been happening with GoT 
    Mthomp32 said:
    A ron sounds so sad/angry in this final episode. I genuinely feel bummed listening to it. 

    I’ve noticed those who are really invested in the series (a lot of podcasters and journalists who comment and critique on the show) are totally outside of themselves. Everyone I’ve spoken to about this season (IRL) loves it and felt the conclusion was pretty fitting given that there is absolutely zero source material - meaning the story is inevitably less complex and truncated. But those people don’t geek out as much as me and listen to podcasts etc. I think the a rons and Dave Chen’s and Mallory rubins of the world have lost sight of two things:

    1) it’s not you’re show. Might sound harsh but this show doesn’t belong to the fans. All of the creative decisions that you’re all lambasting were made with the intention to create the best thing they could (Also *they have no books*). Every critique I’ve heard is essentially around how said commentator would have set it up better...than the creators...as Sophie turner said in her ET interview this week: that is disrespectful (and honestly kind of delusional).  

    2) you - the thought leaders in this community - have an outsized impact on the general conversation online. So it’s a bit of a viscous cycle. Joanna Robinson writes 6 articles that come out 30 seconds after the show ends about how the show runners fucked up and then records 3 podcasts about how everyone thinks they fucked up? That’s a bit crazy making as a listened.  

    Ultimately, it used to be really fun to hear you all dissect and critique the show (talk about what you liked and didn’t like) but it’s become suuuuper depressing since the show ran past the books. 

    I want to state that this ending is pretty gorgeous IMO and the breaks in logic and storytelling are easy to forgive for me because (as George stated last week) the creators are missing approximately 3,000 pages of story. 

    That’s a really fair point. I believe the fandom is honest - I feel for the folks who are really sad/disappointed about the ending of the show. I guess I’m just surprised that such devoted fans seemingly overlook the impossible odds that the creators were up against. That said, I don’t think anyone is wrong for hating this ending. It’s just a huge bummer to read/listen to. 

    Also: I think it’s totally fair to hate the end of the series but kind of weird to suggest that anyone knew a better way. There has never been a story that’s been told like this (I actually don’t think Lost, breaking bad, or any original series is actually comparable other than that fact that they were on tv and they were wildly popular).  The closest comparison I can think of is true blood and when they changed show runners the show became a complete joke. In hindsight it’s easy to say they could have done it differently but 3+ years ago when the we’re making decisions about how to finish the series they didn’t have all the info we have today. It just seems really cheap and easy to say f u to the DDs after all is said and done and I feel like that part of the post-show discourse is unproductive and just really a bummer. 
    SanguinePenguin
  • Teresa from ConcordTeresa from Concord Concord, California
    I need this show.

    Also, there is plenty of evidence that there are lands west of westeros. The proto Iron Born who first settled the Iron Islands were from lands west of Westeros. At the very worst, Arya would run into the most eastern part of Essos that no one has explored, unless we believe in the Flat Planetos theory.


    Perfect!!
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    I was going to go with Westerlands, but those are already a significant thing in Westeros.
  • I need this show.

    Also, there is plenty of evidence that there are lands west of westeros. The proto Iron Born who first settled the Iron Islands were from lands west of Westeros. At the very worst, Arya would run into the most eastern part of Essos that no one has explored, unless we believe in the Flat Planetos theory.


    Perfect!!
    What if it's just a chill place where they have everything all figured out? 
  • Since declaring fan bankruptcy, I went book window shopping during this last episode. In one window, I saw that Tyrion received no thanks for single-handedly saving King's Landing in the Battle of Blackwater; in fact, he was  remembered as the imp that killed Joffrey and Tywin. So I can believe the maester in Old Town knew better than to give any credit to a nephewcide-patricide-traitor-Targaryen-Queen's-Hand. In another book shop window I saw Dorne, Iron Islands and HIghgarden wiped out and unable to participate in the war for the living at Winterfell, and therefore now have no say in how the new six kingdoms will be organized. So I can believe they bitterly swallow Bran as king...for now! In a third book shop window, I saw the hatred of Targaryens in Westeros, so I can believe none of the houses wanted Aegon Targaryen VI anywhere near them (and it wasn't just to appease Grey Worm that Jon was sent north). And seeing Jon re-enter the north beyond the wall - now a safe haven thanks to him - , and with his friends,felt satisfying enough. Especially since I was out of shop windows.
  • foscojo said:

    Bran's direwolf was named Summer which represents the hope after the long winter. So he became the King of the Six Kingdoms.

    Sansa's direwolf was Lady. This led to her becoming the Lady of Winterfell and the Queen in the North.

    Arya's direwolf Nymeria was named after the warrior Queen Nymeria who fled Essos by sea to find a new home, first in the Summer Isles then on to what is now Westeros.

    And Jon's Ghost, well, ghosts exist outside the realms of men, apart from the living. So logically, he rejoined the Night's Watch as the 1000th Lord Commander, (or the King Beyond the Wall depending on how you interpret the final scene).
    Rickon’s was named Shaggy dog because...Rickon never stood a chance. 
    GiovanniCapeGabeDummy
  • edited May 2019
    Mthomp32 said:
    I doubt the show would have generated nearly the audience and critical acclaim it had had it started off with the quality of the last few seasons. Disappointing people is a tough thing, the D&D’s cut short the end on purpose. I don’t know why they apparently don’t have the sense of ownership for Game of Thrones that the Villigang have for the Breaking Bad world.   I don’t think it’s much of a stretch to think you could’ve found people to do the last few seasons better. 

    Dividing the blame between GRRM and he D&Ds is purely academic. It’s the end product that matters. 

    Have you considered the idea that the fandom is actually honest? That there’s actually a significant quality drop off that people are legitimately complaining about?  Look at Mr. Robot for example, the 2nd season was crapped on but I’m pretty sure the overwhelming majority of fans have climbed back on board after Season 3. The opposite has been happening with GoT 
    Mthomp32 said:
    A ron sounds so sad/angry in this final episode. I genuinely feel bummed listening to it. 

    I’ve noticed those who are really invested in the series (a lot of podcasters and journalists who comment and critique on the show) are totally outside of themselves. Everyone I’ve spoken to about this season (IRL) loves it and felt the conclusion was pretty fitting given that there is absolutely zero source material - meaning the story is inevitably less complex and truncated. But those people don’t geek out as much as me and listen to podcasts etc. I think the a rons and Dave Chen’s and Mallory rubins of the world have lost sight of two things:

    1) it’s not you’re show. Might sound harsh but this show doesn’t belong to the fans. All of the creative decisions that you’re all lambasting were made with the intention to create the best thing they could (Also *they have no books*). Every critique I’ve heard is essentially around how said commentator would have set it up better...than the creators...as Sophie turner said in her ET interview this week: that is disrespectful (and honestly kind of delusional).  

    2) you - the thought leaders in this community - have an outsized impact on the general conversation online. So it’s a bit of a viscous cycle. Joanna Robinson writes 6 articles that come out 30 seconds after the show ends about how the show runners fucked up and then records 3 podcasts about how everyone thinks they fucked up? That’s a bit crazy making as a listened.  

    Ultimately, it used to be really fun to hear you all dissect and critique the show (talk about what you liked and didn’t like) but it’s become suuuuper depressing since the show ran past the books. 

    I want to state that this ending is pretty gorgeous IMO and the breaks in logic and storytelling are easy to forgive for me because (as George stated last week) the creators are missing approximately 3,000 pages of story. 

    That’s a really fair point. I believe the fandom is honest - I feel for the folks who are really sad/disappointed about the ending of the show. I guess I’m just surprised that such devoted fans seemingly overlook the impossible odds that the creators were up against. That said, I don’t think anyone is wrong for hating this ending. It’s just a huge bummer to read/listen to. 

    Also: I think it’s totally fair to hate the end of the series but kind of weird to suggest that anyone knew a better way. There has never been a story that’s been told like this (I actually don’t think Lost, breaking bad, or any original series is actually comparable other than that fact that they were on tv and they were wildly popular).  The closest comparison I can think of is true blood and when they changed show runners the show became a complete joke. In hindsight it’s easy to say they could have done it differently but 3+ years ago when the we’re making decisions about how to finish the series they didn’t have all the info we have today. It just seems really cheap and easy to say f u to the DDs after all is said and done and I feel like that part of the post-show discourse is unproductive and just really a bummer. 
    This isn't rocket science. It's a perfectly valid complaint to say the least two seasons were rushed. Alot of people knew a better way: do a 10 episode season 7 and 10 episode season 8. Give the characters more time to breath. The only people who didn't want to do this were the show runners. HBO wanted more GOT, viewers wanted more GOT, the media wanted more GOT, and our favorite characters who we've been following for 8 years NEEDED more GOT.

     The last two seasons focused far too much on action and far too little on all the things that made the show popular in the first place. Instead of paying attention to the details and trying for an A+ the show runners turned in what they had and decided it was good enough.

     If you disagree that's fine, but I think I have a right to criticize a series I've talked about, followed diligently, and loved for over 20 years.
    Kenz34avcplbbordBloodyTacoOldGriswold
  • edited May 2019
    Why on earth do people (namely, podcasters) keep saying that Jaime had sex with Brienne 1 night (or 1 time)? They were shacking up for at least a couple of weeks. They had sex the night after the battle was over on celebration night, then the next day or two Jon and Dany's crew departed from Winterfell. 

    You really want to talk about continuity / coherent timelines in this show anymore? At this point? 
    This is madness. Or Naath, maybe?


  • Mthomp32 said:
    I doubt the show would have generated nearly the audience and critical acclaim it had had it started off with the quality of the last few seasons. Disappointing people is a tough thing, the D&D’s cut short the end on purpose. I don’t know why they apparently don’t have the sense of ownership for Game of Thrones that the Villigang have for the Breaking Bad world.   I don’t think it’s much of a stretch to think you could’ve found people to do the last few seasons better. 

    Dividing the blame between GRRM and he D&Ds is purely academic. It’s the end product that matters. 

    Have you considered the idea that the fandom is actually honest? That there’s actually a significant quality drop off that people are legitimately complaining about?  Look at Mr. Robot for example, the 2nd season was crapped on but I’m pretty sure the overwhelming majority of fans have climbed back on board after Season 3. The opposite has been happening with GoT 
    Mthomp32 said:
    A ron sounds so sad/angry in this final episode. I genuinely feel bummed listening to it. 

    I’ve noticed those who are really invested in the series (a lot of podcasters and journalists who comment and critique on the show) are totally outside of themselves. Everyone I’ve spoken to about this season (IRL) loves it and felt the conclusion was pretty fitting given that there is absolutely zero source material - meaning the story is inevitably less complex and truncated. But those people don’t geek out as much as me and listen to podcasts etc. I think the a rons and Dave Chen’s and Mallory rubins of the world have lost sight of two things:

    1) it’s not you’re show. Might sound harsh but this show doesn’t belong to the fans. All of the creative decisions that you’re all lambasting were made with the intention to create the best thing they could (Also *they have no books*). Every critique I’ve heard is essentially around how said commentator would have set it up better...than the creators...as Sophie turner said in her ET interview this week: that is disrespectful (and honestly kind of delusional).  

    2) you - the thought leaders in this community - have an outsized impact on the general conversation online. So it’s a bit of a viscous cycle. Joanna Robinson writes 6 articles that come out 30 seconds after the show ends about how the show runners fucked up and then records 3 podcasts about how everyone thinks they fucked up? That’s a bit crazy making as a listened.  

    Ultimately, it used to be really fun to hear you all dissect and critique the show (talk about what you liked and didn’t like) but it’s become suuuuper depressing since the show ran past the books. 

    I want to state that this ending is pretty gorgeous IMO and the breaks in logic and storytelling are easy to forgive for me because (as George stated last week) the creators are missing approximately 3,000 pages of story. 

    That’s a really fair point. I believe the fandom is honest - I feel for the folks who are really sad/disappointed about the ending of the show. I guess I’m just surprised that such devoted fans seemingly overlook the impossible odds that the creators were up against. That said, I don’t think anyone is wrong for hating this ending. It’s just a huge bummer to read/listen to. 

    Also: I think it’s totally fair to hate the end of the series but kind of weird to suggest that anyone knew a better way. There has never been a story that’s been told like this (I actually don’t think Lost, breaking bad, or any original series is actually comparable other than that fact that they were on tv and they were wildly popular).  The closest comparison I can think of is true blood and when they changed show runners the show became a complete joke. In hindsight it’s easy to say they could have done it differently but 3+ years ago when the we’re making decisions about how to finish the series they didn’t have all the info we have today. It just seems really cheap and easy to say f u to the DDs after all is said and done and I feel like that part of the post-show discourse is unproductive and just really a bummer. 
    It's not weird at all to suggest that someone else could have done it better. As was mentioned on the show D&D signed up to be adapters, not creators, once creation became necessary if that was something they did not want to do or could not do well they should have passed the torch.  The comparison to Lost is absolutely accurate because what happened in the end and how the fans felt about it is eerily similar, so similar in fact that D&D had a template of what NOT to do and then followed that same path.  People disliked the end to lost because the show set up a collection of plotlines and character arcs that not only did they refuse to payoff or resolve, but essentially told the audience that nothing they'd watched or paid attention to over the years mattered.  For those who invested time in watching and caring that felt like a huge F-U from the show. People felt cheated, and that's essentially what's happening with GOT ... Additionally D&D had a level of control/freedom over GOT that most showrunners don't have so when things don't go well it is more their "fault" ... they've said they wanted certain changes to create surprises ... the general impression is that many if not most of those changes came at the expense of the storytelling.  I think it's great that Jim and ARon are willing to be honest and transparent in their feelings and feedback, why should that be a bummer? As a person who enjoys analysis, I come for the research and well thought out discourse, not just to stan for the show and/or the creators.
    ken haletelephoneofmadnessavcpl
  • A. Ron really turned into a C U next Tuesday. It particularly happened with the last few episodes. I used to love listening every week. You could tell that Jim was just going along with every complaint, even when he disagreed. I still love you A. Ron, but it was just difficult to listen when 98% of your sentences are complaints. Of course this season was horribly written, but you do not have to displace your displeasure at the expense of the audience. I will continue to follow and listen to your material, but I just hope you change your overall tone. Good luck boys!
    SanguinePenguinAlkaid13
  • R.R. San Jose

    “This isn't rocket science. It's a perfectly valid complaint to say the least two seasons were rushed. Alot of people knew a better way: do a 10 episode season 7 and 10 episode season 8. Give the characters more time to breath. The only people who didn't want to do this were the show runners. HBO wanted more GOT, viewers wanted more GOT, the media wanted more GOT, and our favorite characters who we've been following for 8 years NEEDED more GOT. “


    DD’s said they made the decision to shorten the show because that’s all the time the needed.  They did not articulate all the reasons, as time needed becomes defined by the story you want to tell.  
    I speculate they may have had contracts with the major actors and others to do up to a specific number of episodes or minutes finishing no later than a certain date.  When there was hope that GRRM might catch up, they let Dany spin her wheels in Essos and clumsily expanded the map with trips to Iron islands (1000 ships) and Dorne (bad pussy).  Once it became apparent that the show must end with whatever they had, they had to re-arc everything, narrowing things down with a bum’s rush.  Killing off Littlfinger slightly early or abruptly to clear off some future screen time.
    Even if the actors were willing to stay on, they would have to re-up at the going rate of what they could get paid to act in other movies, a now astronomical price tag.  
    In addition, I think that Disney courting the DDs for Star Wars, my guess is they said here is a blank check but you must start in 2019 or no deal, constraining the show further.
     It sucks that the business end gets in the way but even if I’m wrong about what happened, think about all the moving parts, it certainly had a major effect on what we saw, waiting was not an option.  Had they known all along they were finishing on their own, I will believe they would’ve balanced things much differently and certainly for the better.

    You film or you die.

  • davemcbdavemcb Melbourne
    @zruiz7 I think that’s a bit strong, I thought he sounded no more disappointed than a majority of other fans. 

    I’m not saying you’re wrong I also want you to take a step back and think about his journey with the show. He started the pod with Mad Brew and went crazy on book lore and theories. He also spent an incredible amount of time trolling through theories and tinfoil bullshit like Varys is a mermaid or Dario is Euron.

    He did all of that so that strangers around the world could discuss something they loved and he might not ever see anything out of it monetarily. Then at the end all the big theories and ideas people have had for 20 years get proven, Yada yada’d or just thrown out with no real worry of the impact on fans. Ie R+L=J was bought up after the first book sooo long ago but it meant nothing really.

    I can understand he is hurt as a fan even though he declared fan bankruptcy but my take was he ended up putting so much time into this endeavour and the guys making it couldn’t have cared less and just wanted to get onto the next project. 

    The Double D’s will catch some blame but in the end it’s a combo of them and GRRM not finishing the book. I’m pissed at both of them but for different reasons.
    Rayana@rochesterrr.com
  • Why is it that the people who liked the finale of GoT take any criticism of the show so personally, that they have to turn to name calling when someone says something negative?
    blacksunrise7ken haletelephoneofmadnessScottTenormanBloodyTaco
  • chriskchrisk Indianapolis
    edited May 2019
    I think the complaints about the North being independent and nobody else are a bit overblown. 

    Theres a a lot of benefit to being part of the Six or Seven Kingdoms. Trade, currency, travel, etc... It’s the same reason countries have joined the EU today.

    You give up some self determination and I suppose you can say they should have debated it more but all these kingdoms have been unified for generations. So being affiliated is the default for everyone already. Sansa’s the only one we know of who’s been making noise about leaving. 

    Also - Master of Whisperers is just the spy chief right? That’s the way I read it. Whatever Bran is capable of, the position needs to exist, no?

  • When I listened to the instant take I was surprised at how positive they were.  But yesterday's show was just so critical that it really brought me down.  Or rather, it seemed like A.Ron was critical and Jim didn't want to argue so he just moved on to the next scene.

    It seems like everyone is struggling with this and it's just coming out in different ways.  
  • chrisk said:
    I think the complaints about the North being independent and nobody else are a bit overblown. 

    Theres a a lot of benefit to being part of the Six or Seven Kingdoms. Trade, currency, travel, etc... It’s the same reason countries have joined the EU today.

    You give up some self determination and I suppose you can say they should have debated it more but all these kingdoms have been unified for generations. So being affiliated is the default for everyone already. Sansa’s the only one we know of who’s been making noise about leaving. 

    Also - Master of Whisperers is just the spy chief right? That’s the way I read it. Whatever Bran is capable of, the position needs to exist, no?

    That goes against everything the show has shown us. Robb declaring independence was depicted as a big deal. A big deal that upset not only the Lannisters, but Renly, Stannis and Dany. And then not only do they get independence by just saying so, but the Iron Islands, who have wanted to be independent for just as long, go "you go ahead and do you, we'll stay."
    avcplBloodyTaco
  • chriskchrisk Indianapolis
    chrisk said:
    I think the complaints about the North being independent and nobody else are a bit overblown. 

    Theres a a lot of benefit to being part of the Six or Seven Kingdoms. Trade, currency, travel, etc... It’s the same reason countries have joined the EU today.

    You give up some self determination and I suppose you can say they should have debated it more but all these kingdoms have been unified for generations. So being affiliated is the default for everyone already. Sansa’s the only one we know of who’s been making noise about leaving. 

    Also - Master of Whisperers is just the spy chief right? That’s the way I read it. Whatever Bran is capable of, the position needs to exist, no?

    That goes against everything the show has shown us. Robb declaring independence was depicted as a big deal. A big deal that upset not only the Lannisters, but Renly, Stannis and Dany. And then not only do they get independence by just saying so, but the Iron Islands, who have wanted to be independent for just as long, go "you go ahead and do you, we'll stay."
    Completely different time and circumstances. All those people above were vying for control. They’re also all dead along with thousands of their soldiers and citizens after years of war. Multiple houses have lost their heads and heirs. Seems like the whole point of this gathering is to settle everything down and negotiate a peace. 

    The Iron Islands gave up their whole schtick because Dany said they had to. The Iron Islands never made any logical sense in the books or the show as far as I’m concerned. There’s no way Westeros tolerates the Greyjoys and the Ironborn and they should have logically been wiped out a long time ago. 
    MurderbearSanguinePenguin
  • cdrivecdrive Houston, TX
    edited May 2019
    Man to be honest I almost turned off the podcast this morning on the way to work (but I didn't!).  I kept stanning in defense of the show while being disappointed by the guys at moments to me sounding like they were reaching way too far to criticize aspects of the episode.  

    Right before I started the podcast I read on twitter about Sophie Turner saying:

    "All of these petitions and things like that — I think it's disrespectful to the crew, and the writers, and the filmmakers who have worked tirelessly over 10 years, and for 11 months shooting the last season," she said. "Like 50-something night shoots. So many people worked so, so hard on it, and for people to just rubbish it because it's not what they want to see is just disrespectful."

    Then I went into the podcast thinking 'oh great watch how me reading that right before jumping in is going to shade my enjoyment of the podcast.'  

    And every time I disagree with criticism this quote sneaks back into my mind:

    “It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”

    An English professor dropped that quote on me at an impressionable age and it always stuck.  It's like my blow off valve I guess or some coping mechanism when something I like gets trashed.  But criticism is creating something in a way that also has value.  I'm proof as a paid subscriber to 2 TV critics.  So criticism errs too and has shortcomings too.  Criticism is like a lamprey.  Not to be an armchair psychologist but I think many critics are going through a big deal having to process that their host creator is now gone.  And there is a lot of emotions in that and a lot of unobtanium trying to be mined through hindsight and "I would've done this."  It's just tough to hear.  It's like hearing Mommy and Daddy fighting, like one being the show and the other being the guys.  Like there are points I can agree or at least concede on and then are moments where it's like 'aww come on man. so fucking what!'  But I'm just invested as a fan.  So I guess I can be more 'fanatic' in defense of the show's shortcomings.  


    SanguinePenguinawookiee
  • chriskchrisk Indianapolis
    I kinda hate that quote and I think thoughful criticism does count, and has an important role. Not reddit style nitpickery, but people who consider what a show is trying to do rather than what they wanted. 

    I’ll admit I had the feeling that some of these criticisms were as much a reach as some of the show’s choices, but I’m glad Aron speaks his mind and I think they largely do try to take shows on their own terms, then evaluate how well they succeeded. 

    ken haleBloodyTaco
  • I, for one, really appreciate the guys, their point of view, and the fact that they treat their listeners honestly, giving their sincere opinion. If what i was getting was some focus group tested lukewarm opinion set to appease the child like listeners who take anything other than unqualified enthusiasm as a personal affront i wouldn't be a member.
    majjam0770alexander.klassenScottTenormanken haleavcplblacksunrise7BloodyTacoSchlupp
  • edited May 2019
    I, for one*, respect the expression of honest opinions and emotional reactions. The last few weeks, I’ve been listening to four different podcasts on GoT, and it’s really obvious that some hosts are biting their tongues, muting their criticisms because they don’t want to alienate their sizeable GoT audience as they transition to covering other shows.  Bald Move doesn’t do that, which is why I respect them more than others.  We’re seeing in the comments now some of that alienation which they were willing to risk by being honest.

    If you don’t like to listen to contrary opinions, that’s fine. This is television, not a social issue; you don’t need to consider other perspectives. I just don’t understand criticizing the hosts for being critical, as if the simple expression of their personal opinions on television has somehow wounded you.

    *for two, in light of the comment above mine, lol.
    telephoneofmadnessjoepinetreemajjam0770alexander.klassenavcplGiovanniBloodyTacoSchluppawookieeUnderwood
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    edited May 2019
    I, for one, really appreciate the guys, their point of view, and the fact that they treat their listeners honestly, giving their sincere opinion. If what i was getting was some focus group tested lukewarm opinion set to appease the child like listeners who take anything other than unqualified enthusiasm as a personal affront i wouldn't be a member.
    I don't think it's fair at all to paint people in that light. The "child like" people who feel this way are mostly saying that some of the criticism felt like nitpicking and was somewhat nonsensical, not that they are just unhappy with general negative criticism.

    I haven't listened to the main cast this week and probably won't, so I don't have an opinion on this weeks main podcast. But yes, even consummate professionals can allow personal distaste for a parts of the story grow into what some feel as illogical and unfair nitpicking and poking plot holes into a story that the listener feels can be easily explained. It happens, and it's not unfair for listeners (especially paying ones) to say that they feel this way.

    I've listened to two men on the EW podcast argue over almost every plot of the last 3 episodes, so there certainly is no objective truth to be had here. The guy who dislikes the season (Darren Franich) says that they should have slowed down the season and had more scenes of what made GOT great, yet he then says that episode 2 was not good, despite that being an episode that the vast majority long time fans and book readers alike loved because of all of the intimate talking scenes between characters that they feel made GOT great to begin with. That is a professional TV critic making such a bizarre, seemingly contradictory statement; so critics aren't above being criticized for their opinions, just like anyone on here can be criticized (to some degree) or debated for their opinions.
    cdriveawookiee
  • edited May 2019
    cdrive said:

    Right before I started the podcast I read on twitter about Sophie Turner saying:

    "All of these petitions and things like that — I think it's disrespectful to the crew, and the writers, and the filmmakers who have worked tirelessly over 10 years, and for 11 months shooting the last season," she said. "Like 50-something night shoots. So many people worked so, so hard on it, and for people to just rubbish it because it's not what they want to see is just disrespectful."

    That's a bit like saying you can't criticize trump because there are still so many honest civil servants working tirelessly in our government.  Rubbish, indeed.
    alexander.klassenScottTenormanbbordGiovanniBloodyTaco
  • Here we go again with criticism of the criticism of the criticism. 

    Jim & Aron are having a response to the way the show played out and it's completely valid for people to have a reaction to that response.  It's clear that everyone is having a lot of feelings about all of this, and it's entirely possible to hold the belief that critics are allowed to be critical AND feel bummed out after hearing a critical podcast.
    cdriveken hale
  • You feel bummed out that they didn't like it? Fine. People start calling them cunts, saying that they are just critics who risk nothing (they risk more on this podcast than anyone involved in creating game of thrones), or trying to dismiss their view as some psychological disturbance? Not fine.
    bbord
  • edited May 2019
    To the question if Bran the Broken is Martin's plan to end the books.

    Before the finale, I watched the first episode again. After the introduction of the Night's Watch beyond the wall, and we go to Winterfell, who is the FIRST CHARACTER we see in the series.... Brann trying to shoot an arrow. To me, that's the ultimate foreshadowing.
    R.
  • cdrivecdrive Houston, TX
    I see I'm making a lot of friends this morning.  
    SanguinePenguinbbordCeciliaMawookiee
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