How do Americans do their tax?

DeeDee Adelaide
American tax returns seem really to confusing to me. I did my tax this week. In Australia, if you have a simple return (salaried job, few deductions), you just log in to your tax office account, your employer has provided your income and tax deducted in the financial year, your bank has reported any interest, and you just fill in any deductions you want to claim and submit it. Mine took me five minutes. 

Can someone explain to me how you do it there? Anyone from other countries who wants to chip in with how theirs works, feel free. I’m interested! 
TravisFreddy
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Comments

  • Please move this to the What Grinds My Gears thread please  :s
    DeeNoelmajjam0770TravisJoshuaHeterTulipblossomFreddy
  • MichelleMichelle California
    @Travis this is screaming your name :grin:
    Travis
  • We have to calculate and file taxes ourselves, even though the government has all the information needed. Estimated tax withholdings are taken out from each paycheck so the goal is theoretically to owe close to zero at filing time. But our tax code has so many deductions and confusing rules that it often requires paying for tax software or hiring an accountant. Basically it's because private tax software companies (TurboTax, etc.) have lobbied the govt to keep it confusing and also prevent the government from developing it's own free tax filing system.

    Propublica has some great coverage on the issue:




    DeeTravisrkcrawfFreddy
  • DeeDee Adelaide
    @MrX Thank you for that link. Holy moly, that system is nuts. But as usual, it’s a deliberate strategy with mega rich arseholes behind it. 
    TravisCretanBull
  • This sums it up nicely:


    MattyWeavesmajjam0770NaugustineDeeTravisrkcrawfFlukesCecilyJoshuaHetergjames80and 2 others.
  • TravisTravis CA
    edited July 2019
    MrX said:
    We have to calculate and file taxes ourselves, even though the government has all the information needed. Estimated tax withholdings are taken out from each paycheck so the goal is theoretically to owe close to zero at filing time. But our tax code has so many deductions and confusing rules that it often requires paying for tax software or hiring an accountant. Basically it's because private tax software companies (TurboTax, etc.) have lobbied the govt to keep it confusing and also prevent the government from developing it's own free tax filing system.

    Propublica has some great coverage on the issue:




    This is a good answer, but I do disagree with it being the software companies (at least not the software companies alone, and I would even say to a much lesser extent). I actually look at the convoluted tax system as more of a shell game. I think it really comes down to the ability to forward various agendas (generally in the creation of making taxes cheaper for rich people by creating these super convoluted avenues that allow mega donors to pay little to no tax while still being able to point to high tax rates, or being able to make the broader country believe they are getting a tax break without actually giving them one). I'm not really articulating it well, but the thing is that the government wants to create deductions and credits for agendas and public relations, but they also need to get that certain amount of money so everything shifts around and my job gets unbearably frustrating. Think of what you can get away with if you make the tax system insanely difficult to understand and can bury things. Kind of like privacy disclosures from Amazon or Facebook. Even if you notice the whole thing is so overwhelming that it's kind of hard to really fight against because the issue becomes so hard to pin down. Tax preparers have good job security, but it's kind of a miserable job. I NEVER recommend it. 

    As far as explaining it all goes, it really depends on how deep into the weeds you want to go. In terms broken down enough to where it's kind of inaccurate, but provides the gist there are two types of income and they are treated differently. There is earned income which is your wages from a job or self employed income from either a non-incorporated business or from an ownership position in an S-Corporation or a partnership (partnership rules can get a little convoluted so I'll just leave it at that). Also, not important at all, but to drive the distinction you can have an ownership position in a C-Corporation, but that income to you personally will come over on a W-2. I don't know why I felt the need to point that out for these purposes, but I guess I did. If you're a business owner you will also subtract your business expenses from your gross income, with some quirks here and there (meals and entertainment only gets a 50% deduction, depreciation and amortization issues, a few other things), and the net is your income from that activity. Earned income is taxed at a different and more aggressive rate than investment income because the American tax code is fundamentally unfair and fucking stupid and corrupt. If you would like me to rail on for pages and pages about this I can, but it will be long and probably pretty boring. Investment income is your dividends and capital gains and a few other more rare types of things. 

    So, you have your two baskets of income (there is also passive vs. active, but that's a whole can of worms and not terribly important for this). From there you have certain income adjustments like retirement contributions, self employed health insurance deductions and Employer Social Security tax deduction, etc. that we back out. That gives us the Adjusted Gross Income which is commonly used as the metric of how much you actually made in a given year. Then, we look to deductions. Tax deductions that apply to personal returns are generally: limited medical expense (basically you don't get credit until you spend above a percentage of your income), state taxes that you paid to a certain extent (the limitation started in 2018 as a fuck you to NY and CA), mortgage and investment interest expense, charitable contributions, and some other ins and outs. Employees used to be able to get credit for employee business expenses ("haircut" by 2% of your income) which because of the nature of the deduction it was rare that anyone could really take advantage of because of various rules and limitations, but it would happen, but that went away in 2018 because of fucking course it did. It benefits working people and the US tax system needs those dollars so they can funnel them towards breaks to corporations and investors who really don't need them, but I digress. So we have a threshold of deduction that you are guaranteed even if your deductions don't add up to it (2018 was 12,000 for single and 24,000 for married, there are a couple of other designations but that's the gist). You automatically get that, but if your deductions add up to more than that you get credit for it. There used to be this thing called Alternative Minimum Tax which... whoa boy that was a fucking mess, but that's gone now (replaced by more super frustrating stuff, but AMT was kind of a nightmare even if I do understand it in spirit). Anyhoo, so now you have your taxable income and you will calculate the tax applying the type of income to the rate (truth be told, thank god for computers because I'm super glad that I don't have to get into that calculation. On some of these returns that get really interwoven between the two types... I don't know. So convoluted), and you get your "tax before credits." From there you can have some array of credits (here is where you would get a dependency credit as far as what is common, but there are a bunch of possibilities), perhaps some penalties (like if you withdraw from a retirement account too early or something like that), and you have your bottom line tax.

    For payments, which is considered next: if you have a W-2, employee job they will withhold taxes from your paychecks or if you're a business owner you are supposed to take your best guess at what you might owe (if you undershoot it too much you will pay penalties and interest with some "fairness rules" where you can pay based on your previous year's income) and pay that quarterly. You can also apply refunds from previous years to the current year as opposed to receiving payment from the government or do something like that. Then you net the tax against the payments and you're done. I swear, we've pumped out tax returns that are longer than novels. The well of paperwork can go SO deep. 

    Most states have their own tax returns and quirks that make them different too. CA is pretty notorious for being more complicated in their own right, mostly because they very rarely conform to the federal government's way of doing things. That's another consideration. Ultimately, my job sucks but the need for me ain't going away any time soon. 

    If you have any questions about any of this stuff I'm more than happy to chime in with what I can. 
    MrXmajjam0770DeeFreddy
  • Travis said:
    MrX said:
    We have to calculate and file taxes ourselves, even though the government has all the information needed. Estimated tax withholdings are taken out from each paycheck so the goal is theoretically to owe close to zero at filing time. But our tax code has so many deductions and confusing rules that it often requires paying for tax software or hiring an accountant. Basically it's because private tax software companies (TurboTax, etc.) have lobbied the govt to keep it confusing and also prevent the government from developing it's own free tax filing system.

    Propublica has some great coverage on the issue:




    This is a good answer, but I do disagree with it being the software companies (at least not the software companies alone, and I would even say to a much lesser extent). I actually look at the convoluted tax system as more of a shell game. I think it really comes down to the ability to forward various agendas (generally in the creation of making taxes cheaper for rich people by creating these super convoluted avenues that allow mega donors to pay little to no tax while still being able to point to high tax rates). I'm not really articulating it well, but the thing is that the government wants to create deductions and credits for agendas and public relations, but they also need to get that certain amount of money so everything shifts around and my job gets unbearably frustrating. Think of what you can get away with if you make the tax system insanely difficult to understand and can bury things. Kind of like privacy disclosures from Amazon or Facebook. Even if you notice the whole thing is so overwhelming that it's kind of hard to really fight against because the issue becomes so hard to pin down. Tax preparers have good job security, but it's kind of a miserable job. I NEVER recommend it.

    well said - the tax software companies certainly didn't create the system, they just benefit from it and have done what they can to keep the status quo to protect their industry.
    Travis
  • TravisTravis CA
    edited July 2019
    @MrX certainly no argument there. You should see our office's annual bill from Intuit. I think we're paying around $17k/year for Lacerte, and we're a small office so it's not like we're even in double digits on users or anything like that. Totally doesn't include Quickbooks or anything else. Just the tax software alone.

    I think back to when my dad had to fill out tax returns and calculate them manually in the 70s and 80s and it just blows my mind. I know it wasn't nearly as bad back then, but I just can't imagine.

    EDIT: Also, just to note taxes can also be quite simple if your situation is simple. If you're just someone who is an employee and doesn't have anything else going on, maybe a little bank interest income or what not (which does represent a healthy percentage of the population) the calculation can be pretty simple. It is my understanding, though I haven't tried it, that you can even go to the IRS website and I believe CA does the same thing (other states too I'm sure), and just plug in a few things and they'll process it for you. It's really business owners and people who have a lot of "stuff" going on fall down the well, if you will.
    rhcoopDee
  • I have a feeling it's the wealthy people, financial firms, and corporations that lobby to keep the tax code complicated. The software companies and small time accountants just subsist as a by-product. I get why we historically had to self-report, but there's no reason for it anymore except to offer loopholes and give people the illusion of choice. 

    Uncle Sam knows (or can easily find out) how much my family makes, how much my mortgage is, what my state taxes are, what my kids daycare charges, how much interest I've made, etc. Just a waste of time.
    Travis
  • TravisTravis CA
    edited July 2019
    rkcrawf said:
    I have a feeling it's the wealthy people, financial firms, and corporations that lobby to keep the tax code complicated. The software companies and small time accountants just subsist as a by-product. I get why we historically had to self-report, but there's no reason for it anymore except to offer loopholes and give people the illusion of choice. 

    Uncle Sam knows (or can easily find out) how much my family makes, how much my mortgage is, what my state taxes are, what my kids daycare charges, how much interest I've made, etc. Just a waste of time.
    This is true, for at least people who just have W-2s and/or basic investments (stock sales are a wrinkle, but just a moment). I think the IRS already "automates" returns that you can elect to just sign off on. The trick is people with 1099 income or business owners that don't receive 1099s where the deductions or the extent of the income not covered by tax forms comes into play. In order to pin down that sort of thing a deep audit would be required and the resources to do that on a large scale would be staggering. If you don't file the IRS may give you an estimate of your tax return, but I guarantee it will be a deeply unfair one. No non-quantifiable deductions. If you sold stock they will pick it up without basis even if they have the information (at least in the event of an IRS notice, can't speak to non-adjustment related IRS prepared returns. I imagine their justification being that the basis data that they are provided can be inaccurate, which is true). If you sold a house... Whoa boy. We had a client who never filed, but sold a house and they just dropped like half a million dollars of income on her return and charged her for it. She sold stock too. The bill was STAGGERING. One year they were claiming that she owed a couple hundred thousand dollars when in honesty it was basically what she made for the year (once the proper offsets were made). Obviously we filed the returns and sorted it out (they owed her roughly a thousand dollars actually), but man that was a stressful project. She actually hadn't filed in several years and between their calculated insane tax and the penalties for not filing those numbers were gigantic. I think the initial bill was in the ballpark of $850,000. Sucky thing is that she ultimately left money on the table because she would have gotten refunds where the statute of the returns had expired and thus they didn't have to give her the refunds.

    Anyways, the long and the short of it is that they can automate a good percentage of returns (my guess is more than half), particularly standard deduction ones, but there are a lot of things that they can't really know.
  • rhcooprhcoop Knoxville, Tn
    I think a lot of people are just intimidated by the tax code, like Travis was saying above, unless you own your own business or have a lot of real estate/stock activity or have rental properties, you can do your taxes in an hour on a site like turbotax.  

    With the new standard deduction being raised, there were a LOT more people that couldn't even itemize this year so that makes it even easier.  

    State individual income tax makes it murkier IMO and that scares people off doing it themselves.  NYC tax payers have a federal, state and then even a city income tax they have to file.  TN has no state income tax so that makes my life easier :b

    Individual taxpayers should be on a flat tax in my opinion, the real money is made on taxing businesses.

    The federal code only gets super exotic when you start talking about taxing on companies/businesses. That doesn't even begin to count all the shenanigans (wayfair ruling) that some states using now to try to leach money from companies that don't even have any activities in their states. 

    Travismajjam0770
  • TravisTravis CA
    edited July 2019
    rhcoop said:

    The federal code only gets super exotic when you start talking about taxing on companies/businesses. That doesn't even begin to count all the shenanigans (wayfair ruling) that some states using now to try to leach money from companies that don't even have any activities in their states. 

    I more or less agree with this. I would say that even of people who hire us to do their work (and our firm is sort of a "charges more because we handle more complicated types of things" type of firm) 80% or so of the returns that I do aren't complicated, at least given that I know "the landscape" of it all. Maybe there are more moving parts, but nothing that isn't easily put together and calculated within the software. I would extend the statement to include shareholders of businesses/partnerships, and certain niche, generally very wealthy types who have their hands in certain industries. There are weird rules all over the place that don't hit 95% of the population, but can apply to individuals. Also now with the 199A deduction there are weird wrinkles and side calculations depending on the circumstances of who you are dealing with.

    Personally, I like the progressive tax rate system but I think we also do it wrong. I think that investment income should either be just taxed as income or we should flip the system on its head and actually tax investment income more than earned. You could make a carve out for elderly and disabled folks pretty simply. It baffles my mind that our government has made the decision that there is more societal value to letting your existing money grow than to work and earn it. It drives me absolutely nuts. Anyways, I like the progressive rates because it allows you to cut a break to people who need it and let people who make more shoulder the societal burden of governmental funds. I mean, with the progression it's not like they don't get those same lower dollars at the same lower tax rate. Everyone gets the same treatment all the way up the ladder, but as the dollars go up to beyond what you really need to live levels so does your tax. In other circumstances I would see the argument against it, but our economy has become so incredibly top heavy that these sorts of measures are fair and necessary. I could see a flat tax where the threshold began at say $50k/$100k (+ some sort of exemption for kids) or something like that, but I don't know. I just feel like a progressive scale makes more sense.
  • As usual, the answer to the question “why is this aspect of American society so fucked up?” is of course “because of old rich white dudes”. 
    awookieeTravisTulipblossomDeeNoel
  • rhcoop said:
    I think a lot of people are just intimidated by the tax code, like Travis was saying above, unless you own your own business or have a lot of real estate/stock activity or have rental properties, you can do your taxes in an hour on a site like turbotax


    The issue being that in most other industrialized nations the government has built the equivalent of Turbotax for citizens to use for free. And even though a large % of US Citizens are supposed to be able to file electronically for free, these companies have made it deceptively hard to actually use the free tools and instead point consumers towards paid products even when their taxes are simple.
  • DeeDee Adelaide
    edited July 2019
    So how much is Turbotax? 

    And @Travis (or anyone else who wants to chime in), you mentioned retirement contributions. Is that something you have to work out and pay yourself? Or does the employer deduct it? We have compulsory superannuation here - it’s deducted from your pay and then the employer contributes a certain amount too. You can’t access it until retirement except under certain conditions (foreclosure, serious medical treatment not covered by Medicare, etc). Do you have that? Is that what a 401K is?
    Travis
  • TravisTravis CA
    edited July 2019
    Dee said:
    So how much is Turbotax? 

    And @Travis, you mentioned retirement contributions. Is that something you have to work out and pay yourself? Or does the employer deduct it? We have compulsory superannuation here - it’s deducted from your pay and then the employer contributes a certain amount too. You can’t access it until retirement except under certain conditions (foreclosure, serious medical treatment not covered by Medicare, etc). Do you have that? Is that what a 401K is?
    That describes a 401k for us as well. There are other options though. If an employer offers a 401k or something like that it basically is backed out from taxable income on the W-2 wage statement, but if your employer doesn't have a plan or if you're self employed, or under certain other various circumstances you want to go another way you can have one of a variety of individual retirement accounts (IRA, Roth IRA, SEP for self employed people, etc.) and they will have different limits for an annual contribution and advantages/disadvantages depending on the type.  

    I'm not sure if there is a difference in how retirement is quantified but we're allowed to withdraw from 401ks and IRAs (Individual retirement accounts) at 59 1/2 or those same circumstances that you laid out. The penalty is 10% for early withdrawal (+ whatever your state might charge).

    I'm honestly not sure what Turbo Tax costs these days. I've always just done my own at work.
    Dee
  • MrXMrX CO
    edited July 2019
    Dee said:
    So how much is Turbotax? 

    And @Travis (or anyone else who wants to chime in), you mentioned retirement contributions. Is that something you have to work out and pay yourself? Or does the employer deduct it? We have compulsory superannuation here - it’s deducted from your pay and then the employer contributes a certain amount too. You can’t access it until retirement except under certain conditions (foreclosure, serious medical treatment not covered by Medicare, etc). Do you have that? Is that what a 401K is?

    We have mandatory withdrawals taken from our paychecks for Social Security (retirement) and Medicare. Social Security isn't enough to sustain most people at retirement (plus there are dire predictions about its solvency in the future) so often people participate in a 401(k) or similar employer sponsored retirement plan, by electing to deduct additional money from your paycheck (usually pre-tax), and investing it into mutual funds or bonds etc. Some employers will match your contributions up to a certain percentage of your income as an additional benefit. Problem is these type of plans are totally optional and a large swath of Americans don't have access to them or don't participate in them if they do.
    TravisDeeNoel
  • edited July 2019
    Dee said:
    So how much is Turbotax? 



    Turbotax is around $30-60 in my experience as single taxpayer.  For my teenage daughter it is free. If it wasn’t free I would just tell her to file on her own - her taxes are easy peasy. There  are a lot of upselling attempts throughout the filing process ( get TurboTax Deluxe!  Buy audit protection!  Talk with real accountants about your tax questions!) 

    My taxes aren’t too complicated but enough so that I spring for the service. Though with the new  standard deduction I may be able to go without. Washington State has no state tax so I don’t have to worry about that. But I used to file state tax when I lived in Ohio. 
    DeeTravisrhcoop
  • NoelNoel Dallas, TX
    I’m gonna come here next time I need some honest tax advice. BM fam wins once again!
    DeeTravis
  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    Another reason taxes are complicated is to keep American's antagonistic attitude towards revenue collection. That way politicians can wring their hands about spending when they want and bring up stupid shit like Flat Tax and when shit like the Panama Papers comes to light half the citizenry can't understand it and the other half can't either, except they also see the rich people pulling one over on the IRS as some kind of Robin Hood shit, so they doubly don't give a shit.

    My journey to Left Land began the year Turbo Tax allowed you to compare your effective tax rate to famous people.  Specifically the two presidential candidates at the time, Bush and Kerry, and I realized I was paying a higher effective tax rate than both of those wealthy and powerful guys. I don't think TurboTax does that anymore.
    Travismajjam0770DeeFreddy
  • TravisTravis CA
    edited July 2019
    Another reason taxes are complicated is to keep American's antagonistic attitude towards revenue collection. That way politicians can wring their hands about spending when they want and bring up stupid shit like Flat Tax and when shit like the Panama Papers comes to light half the citizenry can't understand it and the other half can't either, except they also see the rich people pulling one over on the IRS as some kind of Robin Hood shit, so they doubly don't give a shit.

    My journey to Left Land began the year Turbo Tax allowed you to compare your effective tax rate to famous people.  Specifically the two presidential candidates at the time, Bush and Kerry, and I realized I was paying a higher effective tax rate than both of those wealthy and powerful guys. I don't think TurboTax does that anymore.
    Totally small example of your last point, @A_Ron_Hubbard and part of why I rail against the "priorities" of our tax system which I feel would reflect the priorities of our country in the sense that the code was built by the government. So, every year I have this one client. He's a really nice guy so none of this is personal against him, but his return drives me absolutely bonkers every year. He's married with a couple of kids and has an AGI of $155k+. After Schedule A deductions he has a taxable income of just short of $130k. It's all long term dividends and capital gains. You know how much tax he generates? $7,900. Then the dependency credit wipes out most of what is left. You know how much tax would be generated if it were a married couple and all that income was a W-2? Roughly $20,500. Well more than double the tax (basically 2.5x). That doesn't even take into account the Social Security and Medicare withholdings. BULLSHIT!

    Like I said, totally nice guy who happens to come from money and more power too him, but that example KILLS me every year. Just right there. In your face is the reality of our country's economic priorities. What we value. It really, really sucks.
    majjam0770DeeDoubleA_Ron
  • See what you gotta understand is, rich people hate paying taxes and will do everything in their power to pay as little as possible, and if that means fucking over the little people with Byzantine tax laws to create loopholes for themselves, or if it means massive tax cuts for the 1% payed for by cuts to everything else; then they’ll lobby for it as hard as possible. And somehow they’ve convinced people this is a good thing, look at our current sitting president, part of his campaign strategy was bragging about how he’s avoided paying his taxes for decades and that’s seen as a sign of success by some people and not as a rich asshole swindling the public interest out of its due so that he can horde it all for himself. He’s not dodging taxes so he can hand this shit out to the poor masses, he’s dodging taxes so he can be even wealthier, but like so many rich people before him he’s successfully lobbied politicians to make taxes a partisan issue, so now half the country thinks rich people paying less taxes somehow benefits them, because Fox News et al. tells them it all makes sense. It’s all part in parcel to the problems of money in politics. 
    NoelTravisDee
  • Alkaid13Alkaid13 Georgia
    edited July 2019
    Fortunately, the one positive of all of this is that the last round of tax cuts weren’t all that popular so maybe the tide is turning where people have decided that, actually, maybe these rich fuckers should be paying more in taxes and all this “trickle down economics” bullshit was a parlor trick to begin with. 
    Travis
  • Alkaid13 said:
    Fortunately, the one positive of all of this is that the last round of tax cuts weren’t all that popular so maybe the tide is turning where people have decided that, actually, maybe these rich fuckers should be paying more in taxes and all this “trickle down economics” bullshit was a parlor trick to begin with. 
    Right? Trickle down economics. No totally 100% foreseeable problems with that. What a heist that shit is/was. Trust me, I know why things are the way that they are. I just hate that people are taken advantage of like this. I hope you're right about the tide turning. I mean, it was really refreshing to see people fully aware (at least as fully as they can be, given the complexity of the code) of the bullshit that was pulled with that tax bill. I do hope that the awareness continues and that we drive these corporate puppets out.
  • DeeDee Adelaide
    Alkaid13 said:
    Fortunately, the one positive of all of this is that the last round of tax cuts weren’t all that popular so maybe the tide is turning where people have decided that, actually, maybe these rich fuckers should be paying more in taxes and all this “trickle down economics” bullshit was a parlor trick to begin with. 
    We just had (yet another) tax cut and everyone was woo-hooing because it was an extra $1080 in your tax return. But I work for the government agency that manages welfare, health and disabilities and I’ve seen the damage rampant tax cuts do. That money has to come from somewhere. 
    Travis
  • TravisTravis CA
    edited July 2019
    Dee said:
    Alkaid13 said:
    Fortunately, the one positive of all of this is that the last round of tax cuts weren’t all that popular so maybe the tide is turning where people have decided that, actually, maybe these rich fuckers should be paying more in taxes and all this “trickle down economics” bullshit was a parlor trick to begin with. 
    We just had (yet another) tax cut and everyone was woo-hooing because it was an extra $1080 in your tax return. But I work for the government agency that manages welfare, health and disabilities and I’ve seen the damage rampant tax cuts do. That money has to come from somewhere. 
    Totally! In our case, they just borrowed a trillion and a half from "the future." They basically put it on a credit card, and the lion's share went to corporations. Even the stuff that did reduce taxes for individuals is the stuff that expires over time. They made the corporate cuts permanent. It's completely ridiculous.

    EDIT: One thing about the example that I mentioned above that I find really vexing. It's not like that client is having us do any crazy stuff. He's not diving through loopholes. There is absolutely nothing out of the ordinary about that return. That's why it so clearly illustrates the problem. We tax people unfairly. We reward already having money with better tax treatment and ask people who work to generate it to pay more for it. To disproportionately carry that burden. It's completely backwards.
    DeeAlkaid13
  • What really pisses me off is these were the guys crowing about “the deficit” before passing those tax cuts and now the motherfuckers won’t pass anything else because of “the deficit”. 

    https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/07/17/politics/rand-paul-objects-9-11-funding-unanimous-consent-gillibrand/index.html?r=https%3A%2F%2Ft.co%2FkxiiqFUxHZ
    This guy literally held up a bill to provide money to 9/11 first responders, probably the most celebrated people in recent American history, over concerns about the goddamn deficit, when he himself voted to tank said deficit by voting for trillions in tax cuts. When people wonder why the current GOP sickens me it’s because of shit like this. And I know this didn’t start as a political thread, but apparently taxes are political now because I guess everything has to be political now in this country when things like “common sense” and “basic facts” depend entirely on which party you support. 
    TravisDeeNoel
  • Yeah, Rand Paul is such a fucking patriot, isn't he? Just sick.
  • FreddyFreddy Denton, Texas
    edited July 2019
    The most common federal crime admitted to in America is tax evasion. Why, you ask? Because our tax system is so fucking janky and convoluted that our own president says using shady loopholes are "smart" instead of "unpatriotic". Just kidding, people have been mocking the IRS long before he came along.
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