104 - If You Don't Like My Story, Write Your Own (Spoilers)

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  • HunkuleseHunkulese Québec, Canada
    MackW said:
    Hunkulese said:
    Well, damn. I never got around to posting it but my theory this weekend was that all the Dr. Manhattan stuff didn't make sense and probably wasn't real. I thought that Trieu was behind Veidt's imprisonment, all the Dr. Manhattan phone booths, and faking the Dr. Manhattan footage. I could have had all the Internet points. 
    How could you have thought it was a character that hadn't been introduced in any way until last nights episode? I can see putting together that the Manhattan theory didn't make sense. But it is absolutely impossible that you could have thought it was Trieu. 
    I don't know if they had previously mentioned Lady Trieu by name, but they had mentioned that the Trieu company (or whatever her company is called) had purchased/taken over Viedt's company after he disappeared.

    Veidt's whole plan was convincing the world there was a higher power out there to keep everyone in check. Having people believe that Dr. Manhattan is still paying attention would also work to keep people in check. It's exactly the same thing religions tend to do.

    It would also make sense that if it was a hostile takeover, Trieu would be motivated to imprison Veidt. Everyone's been saying that we saw Dr. Manhattan constructing Veidt's prison, but we, as the audience, didn't actually see that. We saw a news report that could have easily been faked. We also saw a newspaper that said Veidt is dead, and that doesn't seem to be true.

    After last night, I'm pretty sure that Dr. Manhattan isn't actually in contact with anyone on Earth and probably won't be on the show unless it's in a ridiculous out of left field kind of way.
    gjames80Elisa
  • pavlovsbellpavlovsbell Brooklyn, NY
    edited November 2019
    cdrive said:
    You get all the internet points if you can find the name of that drummer having all that dang fun with Irma Thomas playing Time is on my side! 
    Earl Palmer. I had to google that, and the story is quite sad. I had tried to persuade someone that the show was not being insensitive when it used The Beastie Boys "Egg Man" -- that appropriation is a major theme, and this story supports that the show is aware of when it is performing appropriation. Of course, people are free to not like it; the show may even be deliberately making people feel uncomfortable.


    "When I did the tour of England in 1964, I was in Manchester. Two of the Rolling Stones—Mick Jagger and Keith Richards—came to one of my shows. We sat on the side of the stage and chatted for a while. They said they were gonna cover the song, and they did real quick. It matters not to me whether they covered it or not. It wasn’t their fault that the general public decided it was their song, but it pushed my version to the side. I stopped doing it.

    When the Rolling Stones came to the States, they didn’t invite me to be their opening act. They invited Tina Turner, which was a bit much, but she was more of a rocker than I was. She used to dress a lot more risqué than I would, so that might’ve been what did it."

    JaimieTCretanBullElisa
  • CretanBullCretanBull Toronto
    edited November 2019
    cdrive said:
    You get all the internet points if you can find the name of that drummer having all that dang fun with Irma Thomas playing Time is on my side! 
    Sadly, his name is lost in time.  A lot of early soul music was recorded on the cheap, artists didn't have their own bands and - if you were lucky - you'd record with a label's house band (The Funk Brothers on Motown, Booker T & The MG's on Stax as examples).  Most of those records were recorded with non-professional session musicians - people who were paid a flat-rate to come in and record and went uncredited.  Irma Thomas put that record ("Wish Someone Would Care") in 1964, and it's not even clear who she recorded it for.  She was signed to Minit Records, which was bought by  Liberty Records, which was a part of Imperial Records, who dumped a lot of artists off to independent labels and bought-back certain recordings (they had first right of refusal on anything one of their former artists recorded).  It looks like the "Time is on My Side" single was put out by an indie label called Kent Records.  It's *likely* that they paid for the recording of that song...they didn't have a house band so the drummer was probably just some guy who got paid $20 or whatever.

    BTW, I'm answering this question while drinking my morning tea from my favourite mug.  Long live soul!



    Elisapavlovsbell
  • cdrive said:
    You get all the internet points if you can find the name of that drummer having all that dang fun with Irma Thomas playing Time is on my side! 
    Earl Palmer. I had to google that, and the story is quite sad. I had tried to persuade someone that the show was not being insensitive when it used The Beastie Boys "Egg Man" -- that appropriation is a major theme, and this story supports that the show is aware of when it is performing appropriation. Of course, people are free to not like it; the show may even be deliberately making people feel uncomfortable.


    "When I did the tour of England in 1964, I was in Manchester. Two of the Rolling Stones—Mick Jagger and Keith Richards—came to one of my shows. We sat on the side of the stage and chatted for a while. They said they were gonna cover the song, and they did real quick. It matters not to me whether they covered it or not. It wasn’t their fault that the general public decided it was their song, but it pushed my version to the side. I stopped doing it.

    When the Rolling Stones came to the States, they didn’t invite me to be their opening act. They invited Tina Turner, which was a bit much, but she was more of a rocker than I was. She used to dress a lot more risqué than I would, so that might’ve been what did it."

    I replied when the original post was still on the first page of this thread before reading through to the second page.

    That's pretty awesome!  Not only did Earl Palmer play drummers for her, but Carole Kaye ("the Wrecking Crew" who recorded the Beach Boy's Pet Sounds among many others) played bass!

    Elisapavlovsbell
  • Teresa from ConcordTeresa from Concord Concord, California
    1. The scene opens on the eggs and at first it reads "oz eggs" before it pans out to "doz eggs" (More eggs - Mrs Clark's eggs were not viable)
    I also noticed she tripped and a lot of her eggs got smashed. And then one rolled away and was saved by her smiling husband. Lady Trieu essentially saved one of her eggs and her husband was definitely the first one to fall in love with that baby.

    Also, they were saying it on the podcast last night but is this the land she is building the tower on? Like you mentioned, they said she was building "the clock up the road" but I didn't hear her say she needed the land to build anything. (100% could have missed that though) I am also not convinced this is a flashback. Didn't her daughter hand her the baby when she opened the door? (Then again, a trillionaire could get a tower built pretty quickly I suppose) I think she wanted the land purely for the meteor that crashed down so there is no question it's hers.
    That was another question I had but my list was getting long. But since you brought it up...

    if if it was a flashback is Trieu’s daughter not aging? Perhaps from the mystery IV?

    God I love this show!
  • pavlovsbellpavlovsbell Brooklyn, NY
    @CretanBull  That's very cool about Carole Kaye. I didn't know that.

    There is another interview with Irma Thomas that digs in deeper about the timing of the British Invasion -- during desegregation -- contributing to black artists being overlooked, and the difference between American and British groups covering black artists. She even spills some tea on Motown stealing from New Orleans. "There are stories that would make your hair curl." Of course I know about white artists appropriating black artists, but I never thought about the desegregation aspect, which rubs more salt into the wound.

    https://transatlanticmodern.com/2013/04/24/interview-irma-thomas/
    "You have to realize that the British Invasion took place between, I would say, 1964 and 1970. That whole period of time—especially the Beatles and the Rolling Stones and the Who and people of that caliber—it was a time when we were going through our desegregation where blacks were fighting for their rights to be equal and what have you. So the music was another outlet for white America to forget that we existed to some extent. And also another way to escape from what was going on in America at that time. So it didn’t really help us until sometime later when the younger white Americans started paying attention and listening to what they call old school music. They realized that a lot of the music that was covered by these British groups were initially recorded by black Americans at the time they did it. A lot of the white Americans used to cover a lot of the black Americans’ songs in order for the white Americans to accept the music. Pat Boone used to cover a lot of Fats Domino’s things. And I can never think of that lady who used to cover a lot of Etta James’ music. But anyway, before the British Invasion, per se, white America had trouble accepting black America’s music the way it was. They had to change it and make it more appealing to the masses of white folk. And eventually, they came back to the original stuff, which is when the kids who really wanted to hear the original songs started listening to it. They could see the major difference, because it wasn’t until the late 1960s, early 1970s that black people’s pictures were put on the front of the album."
    CretanBullElisa
  • pavlovsbellpavlovsbell Brooklyn, NY
    I would cackle like crazy if Adrian Veidt is trapped inside that tacky gold statue. It's crazy, but I couldn't help but think of Buffy "Witch" and Han Solo in carbonite. If Veidt is trapped in a bubble on Mars (now some are speculating the moon), then how could he survive escape without a spacecraft?

    As much as they are anvillious with the eggs, they also talk about (and eat) seeds. Trieu said, "So much of my success grew from the seed of his inspiration." She could just be referring to his D.I.E., but Trieu is collecting DNA and doing something with memories. What does Trieu want to do with inherited trauma and legacy to set up a new world? Would making people experience their ancestral trauma make them more empathetic and compassionate towards each other, or would they suffer psychological distress and PTSD? Does she want to undo Dr. Manhattan (because Vietnam)...or make her own? 

    I dunno, I could just watch Hong Chau, Jean Smart, and Regina King go at each other all day.
    CretanBullElisasassyfontaine
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    How do they know Will is Angela's grandfather? They (the institute) think he died in 1921. Did they go back and exhume every person who had died back then to get their DNA and compile this list?
  • pavlovsbellpavlovsbell Brooklyn, NY
    @Murderbear I suspect it has to do with Lady Trieu because she and Will are collaborating. Perhaps this "Legend Fund" is hers originally or something she gained in buying out Veidt. Angela gets phone calls from the heritage center at significant moments that have to do with Will and Lady Trieu. Or perhaps it's just a thermodynamic miracle. 
    ElisaMurderbear
  • pavlovsbellpavlovsbell Brooklyn, NY
    Amidst all the Superman references, has Cal's surname, Abar, come up? (Also, Cal... Kal-El) I'm not claiming that Cal is Superman or even a superhero, but the "accident," the mystery of what happened to him on White Night... it's interesting.

    "A long-forgotten, low-budget blaxploitation flick from 1977, Abar is about the dissipation of race relations, consolation, segregation, dispensation, and more. It’s defiant, didactic, and occasionally delirious. The cast of amateurs seems to be competing for whoever can give the stiffest, most incoherent line reading of the fantastically terrible script. And you should definitely grab a friend or two, some intoxicants, and check it out."
    MurderbearElisaBrandonTheBard
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    Dear Aron: Please continue to give your brief reaction to His Dark Materials in the promo material. Thank you. 
    sassyfontaineCecily
  • HunkuleseHunkulese Québec, Canada
    How do they know Will is Angela's grandfather? They (the institute) think he died in 1921. Did they go back and exhume every person who had died back then to get their DNA and compile this list?
    They didn't have his DNA until Angela submitted it from the coffee mug in episode 2.
  • Amidst all the Superman references, has Cal's surname, Abar, come up? (Also, Cal... Kal-El) I'm not claiming that Cal is Superman or even a superhero, but the "accident," the mystery of what happened to him on White Night... it's interesting  
    I feel like a crazy person because this show has me throwing every theory at the wall at this point. Like, they sure are putting a lot of mystery on Cal, And my brain said “That’s Dr Manhattan in disguise.” Unfounded, aside from a dash of mystery, and a scene of some passionate love making, and illusions and side-eye while Blake was talking about her “ex.” I’ve gone full nanners. 
    BroRad33
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    Hunkulese said:
    How do they know Will is Angela's grandfather? They (the institute) think he died in 1921. Did they go back and exhume every person who had died back then to get their DNA and compile this list?
    They didn't have his DNA until Angela submitted it from the coffee mug in episode 2.
    Right but I still don't know how they would be able to make the connection. Unless Will has supplied his DNA separately at an earlier date, there would be no way for them to connect those dots. It's just odd that the system knows her grandfather is Will but somehow the system doesn't know that Will was her great grandparents' son (I'm pretty sure it didn't have a name for him when they showed the holograms) But like @pavlovsbell said, this is likely setup by Will as a trail for Angela to follow. He does have friends in high places after all...
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited November 2019
    I'm not optimistic...

    1. We will ever see the OG Doctor Manhattan.

    (and more importantly...)

    2. We will have any thematic payoff to the racism worldbuilding. 
    BroRad33
  • Did everyone else immediately think "What about tornadoes?" when the younger Trieu was going on about the sea and earthquakes destroying former Wonders? And then she explained it would take a direct nuclear strike to topple it and I was all "Oh."

    I do wonder if we're getting an X-Men/Heroes/4400/name your favorite superpowers emerging in people storylines with Trieu's daughter and what sounded like a Vietnam War flashback/dream. Maybe 34 years of genetic advancement is engineering superpowers.

    The only thing I wonder about if it's Trieu imprisoning Veidt instead of Manhattan on Mars is what exactly froze the clone Veidt sent? I think next week is the halfway point so hopefully we'll start getting some answers to the questions posed. And in true Lindelof fashion, new ones no doubt.
    Elisa
  • HunkuleseHunkulese Québec, Canada
    edited November 2019
    Hunkulese said:
    How do they know Will is Angela's grandfather? They (the institute) think he died in 1921. Did they go back and exhume every person who had died back then to get their DNA and compile this list?
    They didn't have his DNA until Angela submitted it from the coffee mug in episode 2.
    Right but I still don't know how they would be able to make the connection. Unless Will has supplied his DNA separately at an earlier date, there would be no way for them to connect those dots. It's just odd that the system knows her grandfather is Will but somehow the system doesn't know that Will was her great grandparents' son (I'm pretty sure it didn't have a name for him when they showed the holograms) But like @pavlovsbell said, this is likely setup by Will as a trail for Angela to follow. He does have friends in high places after all...
    You're misremembering things a bit. It all tracks.

    Before she met Will, Angela's family tree didn't have a grandfather branch. Will told her that he was her grandfather, so she took the DNA and put it into the archive, and told the hologram guy that she was Will submitting his own DNA. That added the grandfather branch and would work that way in real life as well. If you don't know who your grandfather is, but you have a jar of DNA, you can take that to the DNA store, and they'll tell you if it's your grandfather or not.

    The system did know that Will was her great grandparents' son. When she went back the second time and did the acorn thing, it added Will as her grandfather and then added Will's parents to the tree. What the system didn't have was any archival footage of Will to add his picture to the tree. Will was named on the tree, but that was because she submitted the DNA as Will.

    The story of the entire family dying was probably written by someone and not auto-generated, so it makes sense that they would say he died there.
    Murderbear
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    Hunkulese said:
    Hunkulese said:
    How do they know Will is Angela's grandfather? They (the institute) think he died in 1921. Did they go back and exhume every person who had died back then to get their DNA and compile this list?
    They didn't have his DNA until Angela submitted it from the coffee mug in episode 2.
    Right but I still don't know how they would be able to make the connection. Unless Will has supplied his DNA separately at an earlier date, there would be no way for them to connect those dots. It's just odd that the system knows her grandfather is Will but somehow the system doesn't know that Will was her great grandparents' son (I'm pretty sure it didn't have a name for him when they showed the holograms) But like @pavlovsbell said, this is likely setup by Will as a trail for Angela to follow. He does have friends in high places after all...
    You're misremembering things a bit. It all tracks.

    Before she met Will, Angela's family tree didn't have a grandfather branch. Will told her that he was her grandfather, so she took the DNA and put it into the archive, and told the hologram guy that she was Will submitting his own DNA. That added the grandfather branch and would work that way in real life as well. If you don't know who your grandfather is, but you have a jar of DNA, you can take that to the DNA store, and they'll tell you if it's your grandfather or not.

    The system did know that Will was her great grandparents' son. When she went back the second time and did the acorn thing, it added Will as her grandfather and then added Will's parents to the tree. What the system didn't have was any archival footage of Will to add his picture to the tree. Will was named on the tree, but that was because she submitted the DNA as Will.

    The story of the entire family dying was probably written by someone and not auto-generated, so it makes sense that they would say he died there.
    Oh my God. I COMPLETELY forgot about her submitting his DNA. Duh!! Ha! Thank you for clearing that up.
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    @Murderbear I have to ask, what did you think this sentence meant originally? "They didn't have his DNA until Angela submitted it from the coffee mug in episode 2." The way brains work is interesting to me...
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    JaimieT said:
    @Murderbear I have to ask, what did you think this sentence meant originally? "They didn't have his DNA until Angela submitted it from the coffee mug in episode 2." The way brains work is interesting to me...
    Yeah, very good question. I do not remember what I read but holy cow I must have read it as not the answer I was looking for. Yeesh. Literally laid out there for me and I brushed right past it somehow.
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited November 2019
    JaimieT said:
    @Murderbear I have to ask, what did you think this sentence meant originally? "They didn't have his DNA until Angela submitted it from the coffee mug in episode 2." The way brains work is interesting to me...
    Yeah, very good question. I do not remember what I read but holy cow I must have read it as not the answer I was looking for. Yeesh. Literally laid out there for me and I brushed right past it somehow.

    That's too bad, because I think this is the key to everything wrong in America. :D It seems to be so common. I'm sure I'm not immune. 
  • I think the guys (mostly jim) overstate or at least over focused on the weirdness of the episode. I find the weirdness to be entertaining and intriguing - and I'm not expecting or even want to really know what's going on 4 episodes in. I have faith that it will make sense in the end. Until we get there I'm happy to be kept guessing

    Killert0astTeresa from ConcordRyanReesemanElisaRenisassyfontaine
  • edited November 2019

    I think the guys (mostly jim) overstate or at least over focused on the weirdness of the episode. I find the weirdness to be entertaining and intriguing - and I'm not expecting or even want to really know what's going on 4 episodes in. I have faith that it will make sense in the end. Until we get there I'm happy to be kept guessing

    Agreed. I guess if you don’t watch weird shit that often this episode might throw you for a loop, but I’ve watched Twin Peaks and Legion, so this is pretty meh in comparison.
    MichaelVCassidy
  • A.Ron (strained) - The horseshoe means... something.

    Full Lindelof has been achieved.
    MurderbearCecilyawookieesassyfontaine
  • I think the guys (mostly jim) overstate or at least over focused on the weirdness of the episode. I find the weirdness to be entertaining and intriguing - and I'm not expecting or even want to really know what's going on 4 episodes in. I have faith that it will make sense in the end. Until we get there I'm happy to be kept guessing


    I felt like this in the first two episodes but I feel completely detached from this show at this point. I can't even figure out what I'm guessing at anymore, I just let the episode happen and then figure out what it was I was supposed to understand via podcasts or recaps. It's still enjoyable I guess and visually it's incredible but I don't think I "get" this show.

    Cory
  • The pills are a passive aggressive attempt for Angela to take one I believe. Looking Glass might trip balls with his ex and no one will believe what they saw lol. Or the ex will disappear before him. Many or most shows, books, movies, songs, games, etc have done versions of this season including the Sopranos. They call Hollywood a cult for reasons. A book called The Hero with a Thousand Faces. Heavy symbolism may not for everyone but it should be, I guess, because it is in this world and entertainment is providing good and bad instruction.

    Anyway, I disagree that it is a valid opinion that life is meaningless or that Cal's words are a valid world view. It to me is akin to someone only reading books halfway. Without life before I was to spontaneously be born, I would be dead at some point soon after like the squid. The same goes for every one of us. We are surviving/benefiting from the thoughts, the emotions, the tools, the lives etc of/from people we will never meet and mostly will never know their names. That was one of the tasks Dale completed. He could not be who he needed to be without the world that he met and that is now within him. In short, flesh is the vessel and the memories/information are what continue to live beyond life and death. Legacy and/or infinity. So although he may be dead, he still lives.


  • Finally got caught up on the episode and the forum and damn what a weird but amazing episode.  I'm fully in for the ride and just here to enjoy it.  I'm not in on the theory crafting and speculating but I do enjoy reading it and saying hmmm to myself a lot.  People at work probably think I have issues but I'm OK with that.  I can't decide between fishing for fetuses or lube man as the most what the fuck moment of the episode but either way both were highly entertaining and the babies anyways were quite disturbing.  Love the guys' coverage as always and I can't wait for next weeks episode to have even more questions raised. 
  • CoryCory New Scotland
    awookiee said:
    Finally got caught up on the episode and the forum and damn what a weird but amazing episode.  I'm fully in for the ride and just here to enjoy it.  I'm not in on the theory crafting and speculating but I do enjoy reading it and saying hmmm to myself a lot.  People at work probably think I have issues but I'm OK with that.  I can't decide between fishing for fetuses or lube man as the most what the fuck moment of the episode but either way both were highly entertaining and the babies anyways were quite disturbing.  Love the guys' coverage as always and I can't wait for next weeks episode to have even more questions raised. 
    Fishing for fetuses is the most what the fuck moment of the episode... series, so far.
    awookiee
  • Teresa from ConcordTeresa from Concord Concord, California
    Cory said:
    awookiee said:
    Finally got caught up on the episode and the forum and damn what a weird but amazing episode.  I'm fully in for the ride and just here to enjoy it.  I'm not in on the theory crafting and speculating but I do enjoy reading it and saying hmmm to myself a lot.  People at work probably think I have issues but I'm OK with that.  I can't decide between fishing for fetuses or lube man as the most what the fuck moment of the episode but either way both were highly entertaining and the babies anyways were quite disturbing.  Love the guys' coverage as always and I can't wait for next weeks episode to have even more questions raised. 
    Fishing for fetuses is the most what the fuck moment of the episode... series, so far.
    I did a rewatch and had to fast-forward through the fishing and the screams in the incubator scene. They are nightmare level disturbing. I’m hoping we don’t get anymore of that freakiness. I am enjoying the other weird and wtf scenes. Lubeman had me laughing my arse off both times I watched it. I don’t care how it plays into the storyline. It was too funny.  
  • MoonMan13MoonMan13 Northern Kentucky
    In the scene where agent Blake has Petey reveal her trauma (after saying that those who wear masks do so out of trauma) the camera shoots her from outside the car. It is noticeable right after Petey utters the phrase "her dad tried to rape her mom" when they cut back and Blake says she's glad they got to know each other she's behind the glass of the car window. They show Angela and Petey again within the car but then a shot of Blake behind glass again.
    Cinematic reinforcement that even Blake hides behind the mask of the FBI despite her criticisms of the vigilantes and her own past? 
    It's trite, but I guess I'm just suspecting that among other character traits their trying to foreshadow Blake as a potential ally?
    Murderbear
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