109 - See How They Fly - Spoilers

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  • Saw this on Reddit last week and meant to post it and forgot. I think this nicely sums up Doc's relationship with time. 
    "Time is a flat circle."
    manhattnik
  • I'm kinda disappointed how uninteresting the 7K turned out to be. In the first couple episodes it seemed like this was going to explore ideas around race and police in America and what happens/how we feel if the police are mostly targeting white racists instead of enforcing the racist power structure we have in our reality. In the end the 7K were just generic masked bad guys with a plan for world domination with a couple of speeches about white grievance along the way and it turns out this show is actually about Dr Manhattan and Lady Trieu and all that Ozy stuff that was very elaborate but ultimately didn't mean much. I'm glad they at least spent some time with Angela and Will at the end and touched on at least a little of what seemed important in the first half of the show.
    ken haleDeesassyfontainetom_gBloodyTaco
  • Garthgou81Garthgou81 Placerville, CA
    It does strike me as odd how far they veered from what almost seemed like their mission statement in the first episode. I thoroughly enjoyed it all, but it is like once they started getting heavily into the sci-fi aspect of the story, they lost interest in the 7K stuff. I am not sure that it was that they weren't sure they could deftly pull that social commentary off, or if they didn't have more to say, or if they just became more interested in the superhero aspect. 
    bizmarkiefaderken haleDeesassyfontaineBloodyTaco
  • @Garthgou81 Once Dr Manhattan showed up that was pretty much all the show was or could be about and personally I found all that stuff a lot less interesting. It went from exploring issues that are super relevant to today's world to philosophizing about the nature of time and free will. It was nice earlier in the show where his presence was just some abstract thing that certain people obsessed over.
  • HunkuleseHunkulese Québec, Canada
    The one complaint that I have is how they went about the ambiguous ending. I usually enjoy an ambiguous ending, but there was zero ambiguity to the ending they went with unless you think Dr. Manhattan was fucking with Angela. It would have been a lot more effective if they ended it as soon as she realized what was in the egg. The question of whether she'd take the power or not would have worked a lot better, but I get how hard it would be to not end the season with the shot they chose.
    sassyfontaine
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    So, while I have loved basically every second of Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross' score this season, I have to say, the licensed songs have been a bit weird, too on the nose or, in the case of the finale end credits song, just plain awful. That cover of I Am The Walrus was offensive to me. But also a prime example of, GET IT?? I am the EGGman.
    ken hale
  • pavlovsbellpavlovsbell Brooklyn, NY
    I liked the use of "I Am the Walrus," but not that particular cover. There other lyrics that apply, especially, "I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together," and of course, "See how they fly." Joanna Robinson did a fun breakdown of the lyrics with Damon as they applied to the episode.
    cdrive
  • The problem with the Beatles is they cost so much money to use their songs. I think the only show that's used them was madmen and Matt wiener said it was very hard to get to use 
  • FlukesFlukes Calgary, Canada
    Since Angela chooses to eat the egg - thus pursuing power, would Adrian consider that evidence that she must be prevented from getting it at all costs?
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    I liked the use of "I Am the Walrus," but not that particular cover. There other lyrics that apply, especially, "I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together," and of course, "See how they fly." Joanna Robinson did a fun breakdown of the lyrics with Damon as they applied to the episode.
    There a few good ones in there that line up but a lot of those are a stretch. Like, he mentioned police and there are police in the show isn't anything. With that said, I don't have a problem with them using this song if they did legitimately see some fun connections. However, between this and all the blue songs that played for Doctor Manhattan, it was starting to feel a bit much. My main problem was with the actual cover of that Beatles song though. It hurt my soul.
    pavlovsbell
  • pavlovsbellpavlovsbell Brooklyn, NY
    edited December 2019
    @bizmarkiefader and @Garthgou81 I get what you're saying about the 7K, but they and Cyclops were the tangible, villain avatars of white supremacy that could be fought in a superhero show, the writers also used them to illustrate how white supremacy has infiltrated power structures/institutions, including the police, Congress, and potentially the White House (IRL for sure). Of course they would attempt to gain the ultimate power of a god if they thought for a second they could. Of course a narcissistic megalomaniac trillionaire would attempt the same. The show is interrogating power: the desire for it, what happens to those who don't have it, what happens to those who do have it and how they use it. 

    The show is saying that you cannot defeat white supremacy. Angela faced everyday racism everywhere: the protesters at the cultural center, the kid in the classroom, the grandpa on her porch. It's baked into our culture, and its tentacles reach everywhere. That's realistic while also being true to the source material. Adrian thought he saved the world from nuclear armageddon, but everyone is still making bombs because it makes them feel safe... and because tribalism, which is another reason why racism exists.

    Angela got to experience what Will experienced via Nostalgia. That was a more powerful way to convey the horrors white supremacy and the resulting trauma, especially the inherited trauma that Angela did not realize she had -- that so many of us have and may not be aware of. That's why I liked that the conversation between Will and Angela about masks, trauma, and power felt like the climax of the finale, for me at least.
    CretanBullsaraej319sassyfontainedarwinfeeshyMattyWeaves
  • The problem with the Beatles is they cost so much money to use their songs. I think the only show that's used them was madmen and Matt wiener said it was very hard to get to use 
    Back in the 90's I worked for a company called Sony/ATV, they owned the Beatles publishing rights.  I can confirm, not only is using a Beatles song expensive but they're also very selective about who gets to use them.
    pavlovsbellKillert0ast
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    edited December 2019
    Oh absolutely. I would be curious what it costs for a cover of a Beatles song since they are obviously still getting a taste. Also, I think I would rather lose some money and let them use the original version on a show rather than some terrible cover version of my song. Then again, I think it lets people appreciate the original even more.
  • pavlovsbellpavlovsbell Brooklyn, NY
    edited December 2019
    The problem with the Beatles is they cost so much money to use their songs. I think the only show that's used them was madmen and Matt wiener said it was very hard to get to use 
    True. Weiner said the only reason they got "Tomorrow Never Knows" was because the remaining Beatles members were fans of the show. It only cost them $250,000. Whereas, the Paramount/Dreamworks paid $1.5 million for "Fool on the Hill" for "Dinner for Schmucks" (Spielberg is McCartney's neighbor in the Hamptons). But otherwise, they don't like to license their songs, unlike the Rolling Stones.
  • After being fed up with the slow-burn, speculation-baiting unfurling of this show week-to-week, I took a break after episode 3 and just burned through the remaining ones yesterday.  Definitely plays better back-to-back and without going online and reading all the nonsenses people were theorizing about. 

    That said, this show ain't all it's cracked up to be.  Egg pun?  Simply put, what doesn't work for me is the way it oscillates between the really thoughtful, heavy-hitting racial politics and the straight-up bad-comic-book writing of the main plot.  And I like comic books.  Underrated, unfairly maligned medium.  But some of the plot points and dialog in this show reminded me of a BAD comic book.  The villain-splaining in the final episode, in particular, had me literally laughing out loud.  Yet it's treated with the same seriousness as everything else in the show and, considering the subject matter presented up front in the premiere, on the whole I'd have to say this show is a failure because of that disconcerting tonal inconsistency. 

    On a more positive note, episodes 5 and 6, as well as 8 to a lesser extent, are both stellar, nearly stand-alone episodes of television, and there's tons of brilliant and beautiful and emotionally-wrenching moments throughout the whole series.  It just doesn't work when you look at it as a whole..
    DeeBloodyTaco
  • DeeDee Adelaide
    @Garthgou81 Once Dr Manhattan showed up that was pretty much all the show was or could be about and personally I found all that stuff a lot less interesting. It went from exploring issues that are super relevant to today's world to philosophizing about the nature of time and free will. It was nice earlier in the show where his presence was just some abstract thing that certain people obsessed over.
    You’re right, and I couldn’t care less about the nature of time and free will. Manhattan is the least interesting part of the Watchmen universe to me. 
    ken halebizmarkiefadersassyfontaineJaimieTBloodyTaco
  • Oh absolutely. I would be curious what it costs for a cover of a Beatles song since they are obviously still getting a taste. Also, I think I would rather lose some money and let them use the original version on a show rather than some terrible cover version of my song. Then again, I think it lets people appreciate the original even more.
    Back in the 90's a Beatles song would cost anywhere from $80k (a standard unknown-ish album track) to several hundred thousand (a commonly recognizable song).  If you wanted 'Hey Jude' or something like that expect to pay $1 million +.  The Beatles don't get a taste of that :(   Michael Jackon bought their publishing rights, he ended up selling 50% to Sony (that's what created the company that I worked for Sony/ATV) and since then Sony has bought Jackson's 50% from the Jackson estate.  Last year Paul McCartney tried to sue under some US law, but I don't know if anything ever became of that.

    Covers are totally different.  If you record a cover of a Beatle's song and then that cover gets used in a movie etc the fee would be a normal publishing fee, depending on the project it might only be a few thousand dollars.  
  • DeeDee Adelaide
    It annoyed me that Tim Blake Nelson was pretty much forgotten after his POV episode until he pops up at the end and does... nothing. 

    Also, the raining down of frozen squid that would “destroy everything within five blocks” does destroy the machine and kill Lady Trieu, but Pirate Jenny and Red Scare are fine even though they have no shelter other than a cop car, buildings are fine, etc. 
    ken haleBloodyTaco
  • There's kind of a lot of loose threads, honestly.  I didn't even remember Lube Man until I saw the image someone posted earlier.  Did I just zone out when that character was ever even mentioned on the show again, much less what he/she was doing?
  • I don’t believe you did. 
    ken hale said:
    There's kind of a lot of loose threads, honestly.  I didn't even remember Lube Man until I saw the image someone posted earlier.  Did I just zone out when that character was ever even mentioned on the show again, much less what he/she was doing?

    How about why exactly did Lady Trieu need the 7th Kavalry?  Doesn’t she have enough minions to carry out her bidding? Why didn’t she just kidnap Cal while he was deactivated since she knew who he was?
    ken hale

  • Dee said:
    It annoyed me that Tim Blake Nelson was pretty much forgotten after his POV episode until he pops up at the end and does... nothing. 

    Also, the raining down of frozen squid that would “destroy everything within five blocks” does destroy the machine and kill Lady Trieu, but Pirate Jenny and Red Scare are fine even though they have no shelter other than a cop car, buildings are fine, etc. 

    I thought we would at least get a flashback to what happened the night he got attacked. I guess his confrontation with the 7K and then narcing on Angela was the climax for his character? It doesn't seem like any of the characters other than Angela, Veidt, Will, Lady Trieu and Dr Manhattan really mattered after the halfway mark. It almost feels like two separate shows split by that nostalgia episode.
    ken haleDee
  • edited December 2019
    FFS I just read something on twitter that Agent Petey or whatever is supposed to be Lube Man and that's only hinted at if you read the stupid peteyfiles really closely or some nonsense.  Shit like that is why I gave up on this show in the first place.  Either put it on the screen or don't fucking have it in your story, Lindeloff.  Just because the internet exists now doesn't mean that simple fucking conventions of storytelling are out the window.
    DeeJaimieT

  •  It almost feels like two separate shows split by that nostalgia episode.
    Yeah, I felt that, too.  In my cynical mind, though, I thought it was more like the story was written from start to finish and without a really clear ending in mind; the showrunners ran out of gas and good ideas about halfway through and then just stuck all the plot points together with spit and scotchtape.
  • pavlovsbellpavlovsbell Brooklyn, NY
    edited December 2019

    Dee said:
    It annoyed me that Tim Blake Nelson was pretty much forgotten after his POV episode until he pops up at the end and does... nothing. 

    Also, the raining down of frozen squid that would “destroy everything within five blocks” does destroy the machine and kill Lady Trieu, but Pirate Jenny and Red Scare are fine even though they have no shelter other than a cop car, buildings are fine, etc. 

    I thought we would at least get a flashback to what happened the night he got attacked. I guess his confrontation with the 7K and then narcing on Angela was the climax for his character? It doesn't seem like any of the characters other than Angela, Veidt, Will, Lady Trieu and Dr Manhattan really mattered after the halfway mark. It almost feels like two separate shows split by that nostalgia episode.
    I, too, was disappointed by the sidelining of Wade and Laurie. Again, it feels like they were too beholden to reflecting the structure of the comics. I understand the desire to keep the focus on Will and Angela (and Manhattan ties into that), but I wanted more of Lady Trieu. Hong Chau was utterly delightful, and considering that she is the main villain, we should have gotten more time with her and some backstory. Wade got an entire episode, which I enjoyed at the time (although the middle part sagged), but it not's enjoyable for me on rewatch.

    I don't think ep. 5 was the climax for Wade's character. He still wanted to expose the truth, much like Rorschach, so he not only got his evidence, but he also got to see the source of the fake squid, and he and Laurie got to arrest Adrian -- something that Laurie has wanted to do for a long time. It still felt rushed, and I suppose neither the FBI nor the Tulsa police were concerned that Laurie and Wade were missing, respectively. Okay.

    I also didn't understand why Wade said that the last squid incursion was three weeks ago. I'm not 100% on the timeline, but it's around 9-10 days, and the squids were in the first episode. 
    Deebizmarkiefaderken hale
  • DeeDee Adelaide
    ken hale said:
    FFS I just read something on twitter that Agent Petey or whatever is supposed to be Lube Man and that's only hinted at if you read the stupid peteyfiles really closely or some nonsense.  Shit like that is why I gave up on this show in the first place.  Either put it on the screen or don't fucking have it in your story, Lindeloff.  Just because the internet exists now doesn't mean that simple fucking conventions of storytelling are out the window.
    Yeah, that’s another thing that pissed me off. I shouldn’t have to do homework to be able to understand what I’m watching. 
    ken haleJaimieT
  • pavlovsbellpavlovsbell Brooklyn, NY

    I don’t believe you did. 
    ken hale said:
    There's kind of a lot of loose threads, honestly.  I didn't even remember Lube Man until I saw the image someone posted earlier.  Did I just zone out when that character was ever even mentioned on the show again, much less what he/she was doing?

    How about why exactly did Lady Trieu need the 7th Kavalry?  Doesn’t she have enough minions to carry out her bidding? Why didn’t she just kidnap Cal while he was deactivated since she knew who he was?
    Trieu explained why.

    1. She thought she needed the 7K so Manhattan wouldn't see her coming (hubris -- he did).

    2. It was part of her deal with Will. He wanted the leadership gathered in one place, the site of the Greenwood massacre, right across from the Dreamland Theatre, no less, to deliver justice to them. Trieu held up her part of the bargain.
    Murderbear
  • edited December 2019

    [Will] wanted the leadership gathered in one place, the site of the Greenwood massacre, right across from the Dreamland Theatre, no less, to deliver justice to them. Trieu held up her part of the bargain.
    That's another question I had: this "cyclops" organization was doing supervillain shit in NYC in the 40's or whatever, but now some 70 years later, after a 40 year uber-conservative Nixon presidency, it's been reduced to a handful of Okies?  Mission accomplished, I guess.  Racism is no longer a problem in this world or something?  Will was living in NYC all those years, just chilling in a mansion, evidently not fighting any kind of overwhelming racist conspiracy in the NYPD, but Manhattan shows up and namedrops some Tulsa police chief he's never heard of and all the sudden the old dude's on a warpath, orchestrating some highly unlikely, superconvoluted conspiracy of his own with Trieu and mind-control flashlights and Nostalgia memories and elephants and boiling water that doesn't burn him and shit? 

    Yeah, the more I think about it, the less I like this show.  And, frankly, Alan Moore's opposition to the use of his intellectual work does still mean something to me.  The fact that the themes explored by this show didn't NEED, and were actually hampered by, the backdrop of the Watchmen makes it all the more egregious.  Lindeloff could've done his own alternate-history thing and explored race relations and reparations and it probably would've been better, at least in my opinion.
        
  • pavlovsbellpavlovsbell Brooklyn, NY
    ken hale said:

    [Will] wanted the leadership gathered in one place, the site of the Greenwood massacre, right across from the Dreamland Theatre, no less, to deliver justice to them. Trieu held up her part of the bargain.
    That's another question I had: this "cyclops" organization was doing supervillain shit in NYC in the 40's or whatever, but now some 70 years later, after a 40 year uber-conservative Nixon presidency, it's been reduced to a handful of Okies?  Mission accomplished, I guess.  Racism is no longer a problem in this world or something?  Will was living in NYC all those years, just chilling in a mansion, evidently not fighting any kind of overwhelming racist conspiracy in the NYPD, but Manhattan shows up and namedrops some Tulsa police chief he's never heard of and all the sudden the old dude's on a warpath, orchestrating some highly unlikely, superconvoluted conspiracy of his own with Trieu and mind-control flashlights and Nostalgia memories and elephants and boiling water that doesn't burn him and shit? 

    Yeah, the more I think about it, the less I like this show.  And, frankly, Alan Moore's opposition to the use of his intellectual work does still mean something to me.  The fact that the themes explored by this show didn't NEED, and were actually hampered by, the backdrop of the Watchmen makes it all the more egregious.  Lindeloff could've done his own alternate-history thing and explored race relations and reparations and it probably would've been better, at least in my opinion.
        
    I don't know what to tell you. These questions were addressed in the show.
    DoubleA_RonKillert0ast
  • HunkuleseHunkulese Québec, Canada
    edited December 2019
    Dee said:
    ken hale said:
    FFS I just read something on twitter that Agent Petey or whatever is supposed to be Lube Man and that's only hinted at if you read the stupid peteyfiles really closely or some nonsense.  Shit like that is why I gave up on this show in the first place.  Either put it on the screen or don't fucking have it in your story, Lindeloff.  Just because the internet exists now doesn't mean that simple fucking conventions of storytelling are out the window.
    Yeah, that’s another thing that pissed me off. I shouldn’t have to do homework to be able to understand what I’m watching. 
    Nothing that was posted in the Peteypedia was at all necessary to understand the show, and it actually made the show worse in a way because anything that mattered was just repeated again anyway. It was all just fun extra stuff.

    Seems really weird to get mad about considering you wouldn't be interacting on message boards and listening to podcasts if you didn't enjoy the homework. You wouldn't want a show you loved to have extra stuff posted online to give you some background or extra information?

    It's not like Mr. Robot where you're expected to have studied Camus to understand a lot of the references.
    Killert0ast
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