Coronavirus / COVID-19

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Comments

  • FreddyFreddy Denton, Texas
    JaimieT said:
    God, can you imagine if this thing had a 10% or 20% death rate? Or 50%? Then I'd feel more dread. Ugh, that would be miserable, the waiting. 
    Even at 1% that is around 85,000 people if all of NYC got infected. 3.3 million for the whole U.S. Cut past L.A., and that is one to two cities worth of people wiped off the map. I certainly don't think it will get that far, but the numbers scare me a little.
    JaimieT
  • Wash your hands, you’ll be fine. I think...
  • cdrive said:
    Hatorian said:

    cdrive said:
    I’m in a pickle. My family and MIL FIL have a 7 day Caribbean cruise booked in 2 weeks. With the virus in Latin America, and a cruise ship in Caribbean already denied ports due to a crew member with the flu, we’re questioning the trip. 

    This morning two cases popped up in Mexico. I hope Norwegian or the government will make the decision for us. It’s looking more and more risky.
    Sounds risky, Rusty.  I'm sure you heard of what is happening on the Princess Cruise......
    Not to be a Debbie Downer, but cruises just don't seem like the best place to be right now.  

    For me, yesterday it was confirmed that the business conference I was to attend in April in Tokyo was cancelled.  It was a real kick in the nuts because I was taking my wife and we were going to be there 9 days with less than half of those days being work-related days.  Our partners, the company hosting, was going to cover our hotel even on the extended days and my work was going to cover airfare and all our dining.  It was going to be amazing and incredibly cheap personally since all we would be spending money on would be souvenirs and excessive alcohol.  We were both going to turn 40 in Tokyo.  ANNNND NOWWWW.......I got to figure out how to get credit for the ticket I bought and was going to expense AND figure out how to somehow recoup my MileagePlus miles I used for my wife's ticket.  I'll probably end up getting screwed.  <thumbs up emoji>  


    My company just announced they are cancelling their annual sales achievement benefit. Anyone who hit their numbers got an all expensive paid trip to a 5 star location. And instead of doing the right thing which would be to just provide these people with a monetary value worth the trip they just said “sorry it’s cancelled”. So everyone who worked their ass off to make the company a ton of money and were the top performers across the world were basically told “sorry” the rumors going around is this was a cost cutting measure disguised by the outbreak rumors. And it’s hard to argue this when they made the decision to not replace the reward with a monetary replacement.
    That......is some mutherfuckin BULLSHIT!  I'd be so pissed.  Just give them the money!!!!!!!!
    Obviously late to the party with this thread but damn that is absolute crap.  They are definitely just using the Corona Virus as a scapegoat.  I really hope they come to their senses and give you something but it's not sounding like that's likely.  Sorry you're dealing with this crap @Hatorian
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    redlancer said:
    JaimieT said:
    God, can you imagine if this thing had a 10% or 20% death rate? Or 50%? Then I'd feel more dread. Ugh, that would be miserable, the waiting. 

    From what I understand that actually makes the virus not spread, the people who get it die too fast before they can pass on the virus. That's why ebola and bird flu hasn't wiped out the world. This one seems like the sweet spot of very contagious but mild enough symptoms that take quite a while to show (if at all). 

    I need to go buy a dust mask at the hardware store to do some drywall sanding this weekend, hopefully you guys haven't bought them all yet...  :)


    edit  --  nm, you guys did take them all. I blame all of you for my eventual silicosis and lung cancer...


    NGL, this doesn't make any sense to me at all. People aren't contagious after they fought it off. Also there's variances in the incubation/contagious period. Also the game Pandemic!

    I... don't think this is a broad truth you're talking about.
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    Freddy said:
    JaimieT said:
    God, can you imagine if this thing had a 10% or 20% death rate? Or 50%? Then I'd feel more dread. Ugh, that would be miserable, the waiting. 
    Even at 1% that is around 85,000 people if all of NYC got infected. 3.3 million for the whole U.S. Cut past L.A., and that is one to two cities worth of people wiped off the map. I certainly don't think it will get that far, but the numbers scare me a little.

    Yeah but traffic is so bad....
    Freddy
  • MichaelGMichaelG Seattle
    edited February 29
    https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/health/2-new-coronavirus-cases-emerge-in-washington-in-king-county-and-snohomish-county/

    I live in Snohomish County.....

    Snohomish Health District Briefing Video (worth watching)

    The most worrisome thing about the high school case out here is that the student didn't contract it from a known source (no contact with other patients or travel abroad). I imagine that means he got it from someone who doesn't know they have it, which I presume means we are likely to have an outbreak of some kind out here soon. 

    I guess I'll be reporting live from the Hot Zone momentarily. 
    cdriveJaimieT
  • cdrivecdrive Houston, TX
    I’ve been listening to “The Daily Podcast from Coronavirus Central”

    here are some good links he shares in his show notes- 

    Links:

    Latest statistics: https://covid19info.live/

    Case sources: https://bnonews.com/

    Covid-19 news: http://covidreport.net/

    There are many more links in each daily show’s notes. 

    He’s really good IMO
    MichaelG
  • My niece just  left For a class trip to Costa Rica and my nephew has been doing  a semester there since January. From my understanding, its infants and the elderly who are the most vulnerable, yet its still hugely worrisome. 
    bruwm237
  • How much of everyone’s anxiety has to do with virus itself, or the complete ineptitude of this current administration? I don’t remember being this anxious during Ebola, Sars, Anthrax, or Avian bird flu. 
  • adobo1148 said:
    My niece just  left For a class trip to Costa Rica and my nephew has been doing  a semester there since January. From my understanding, its infants and the elderly who are the most vulnerable, yet its still hugely worrisome. 
    Last I looked no children had died IIRC. I think it's mostly the elderly that have high(er) mortality rates. 
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited February 29
    This from earlier in the thread... 

    http://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-age-sex-demographics/

    No fatalities age 0-9.
  • DeeDee Adelaide
    adobo1148 said:
    How much of everyone’s anxiety has to do with virus itself, or the complete ineptitude of this current administration? I don’t remember being this anxious during Ebola, Sars, Anthrax, or Avian bird flu. 
    I remember a lot of people freaking out over swine flu and panic buying water and groceries. I don’t think governments were getting that involved though, and there weren’t travel bans or anything, I’m sure. 

    (And then my daughter got it and I had to work from home for two weeks while she lay on the couch watching cartoons and eating soup.)
  • MichelleMichelle California
    I'm at home with a really sore throat and headache.  I've been tired and wanting to just sleep, and this is the third day.  I'm sure it's just standard virus stuff, but I hate that in the back of my mind I'm like "...what if...?"

    If I drop off the forums. etc. all of a sudden, you'll know why. :confused:


  • cdrivecdrive Houston, TX
    cdrive said:
    I’ve been listening to “The Daily Podcast from Coronavirus Central”

    here are some good links he shares in his show notes- 

    Links:

    Latest statistics: https://covid19info.live/

    Case sources: https://bnonews.com/

    Covid-19 news: http://covidreport.net/

    There are many more links in each daily show’s notes. 

    He’s really good IMO
    Aww crap. I rescind my recommendation and unsubscribe from him. Turns out he has a problematic past he hasn’t disavowed. A white supremacy past.  Disappointing. Those links aren’t related to him though. 


    MichaelG
  • cdrivecdrive Houston, TX
    Michelle said:
    I'm at home with a really sore throat and headache.  I've been tired and wanting to just sleep, and this is the third day.  I'm sure it's just standard virus stuff, but I hate that in the back of my mind I'm like "...what if...?"

    If I drop off the forums. etc. all of a sudden, you'll know why. :confused:


    Get well soon! 
    Michelle
  • MichelleMichelle California
    cdrive said:
    Get well soon! 
    Thanks!  A's baseball, hot coffee, cough drops, & a big fuzzy blanket ftw today.  
    cdrive
  • DeeDee Adelaide
    Michelle said:
    I'm at home with a really sore throat and headache.  I've been tired and wanting to just sleep, and this is the third day.  I'm sure it's just standard virus stuff, but I hate that in the back of my mind I'm like "...what if...?"

    If I drop off the forums. etc. all of a sudden, you'll know why. :confused:


    That sounds more like a cold so I wouldn’t be too concerned. From what I’ve read the symptoms are more flu-like - aches, chills, fever, weakness, etc. 

    But still sucks to feel sick regardless, so hope you feel better soon - take care of yourself and stay warm. 
    JaimieTMichelle
  • MichaelGMichaelG Seattle
    edited March 1
    cdrive said:
    cdrive said:
    I’ve been listening to “The Daily Podcast from Coronavirus Central”

    here are some good links he shares in his show notes- 

    Links:

    Latest statistics: https://covid19info.live/

    Case sources: https://bnonews.com/

    Covid-19 news: http://covidreport.net/

    There are many more links in each daily show’s notes. 

    He’s really good IMO
    Aww crap. I rescind my recommendation and unsubscribe from him. Turns out he has a problematic past he hasn’t disavowed. A white supremacy past.  Disappointing. Those links aren’t related to him though. 


    I'm so relieved you got on here and posted this!  I listened to the latest podcast today and definitely did a big eye brow raise when he talked about his political past.   I see what you mean though, he presents a lot of data and news. He's pretty alarmist, as well, probably a little too much so. 

    Anyway, we did have our first death out here in Kirkland, WA, which is east of Seattle, a very wealthy area. I'm sure ya'll have read about it by now - seems there is a hotbed of cases in a nursing home there. 

    I went to Costco this AM just to stock up on provisions. It was INSANE there. I don't feel that panicky for various reasons, but I still think there's a non zero chance the local health authority enacts some quarantine measures if it continues to spread rapidly. 

    This guy is a good follow on twitter right now: https://twitter.com/CurlyJungleJake

    He's the researcher featured on Netflix's pandemic series. Replies to a lot of people and gives good perspective on how we can/should be moving forward as this evolves or devolved, depending on your POV. 
    JaimieTMarci
  • redlancerredlancer Seattle
    JaimieT said:
    redlancer said:
    JaimieT said:
    God, can you imagine if this thing had a 10% or 20% death rate? Or 50%? Then I'd feel more dread. Ugh, that would be miserable, the waiting. 

    From what I understand that actually makes the virus not spread, the people who get it die too fast before they can pass on the virus. That's why ebola and bird flu hasn't wiped out the world. This one seems like the sweet spot of very contagious but mild enough symptoms that take quite a while to show (if at all). 

    I need to go buy a dust mask at the hardware store to do some drywall sanding this weekend, hopefully you guys haven't bought them all yet...  :)


    edit  --  nm, you guys did take them all. I blame all of you for my eventual silicosis and lung cancer...


    NGL, this doesn't make any sense to me at all. People aren't contagious after they fought it off. Also there's variances in the incubation/contagious period. Also the game Pandemic!

    I... don't think this is a broad truth you're talking about.
    It's that it takes quite a while before you show symptoms and even then usually aren't very severe, but you're spreading the virus the whole time. Very similar to regular flu/cold.

    The 'deadly' viruses you catch, get sick, and die before spreading. Seems to be an evolutionary trait of regular human viruses that they don't want to kill the host, they want to spread. It's these new viruses that jump from animal to human that can be the super dangerous ones since they didn't evolve with our species (but don't spread far because they kill the host too quickly). 

    At least that's what the random articles the last month seem to point out. Now that we have a resident virologist would love to hear their take on pathogen mortality rate vs spreading capabilities.


    JaimieT
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited March 1
    redlancer said:
    JaimieT said:
    redlancer said:
    JaimieT said:
    God, can you imagine if this thing had a 10% or 20% death rate? Or 50%? Then I'd feel more dread. Ugh, that would be miserable, the waiting. 

    From what I understand that actually makes the virus not spread, the people who get it die too fast before they can pass on the virus. That's why ebola and bird flu hasn't wiped out the world. This one seems like the sweet spot of very contagious but mild enough symptoms that take quite a while to show (if at all). 

    I need to go buy a dust mask at the hardware store to do some drywall sanding this weekend, hopefully you guys haven't bought them all yet...  :)


    edit  --  nm, you guys did take them all. I blame all of you for my eventual silicosis and lung cancer...


    NGL, this doesn't make any sense to me at all. People aren't contagious after they fought it off. Also there's variances in the incubation/contagious period. Also the game Pandemic!

    I... don't think this is a broad truth you're talking about.
    It's that it takes quite a while before you show symptoms and even then usually aren't very severe, but you're spreading the virus the whole time. Very similar to regular flu/cold.

    The 'deadly' viruses you catch, get sick, and die before spreading. Seems to be an evolutionary trait of regular human viruses that they don't want to kill the host, they want to spread. It's these new viruses that jump from animal to human that can be the super dangerous ones since they didn't evolve with our species (but don't spread far because they kill the host too quickly). 

    At least that's what the random articles the last month seem to point out. Now that we have a resident virologist would love to hear their take on pathogen mortality rate vs spreading capabilities.



    Yeah, what you're describing would make it impossible for viruses to become enormously deadly across the globe, but we've seen the viruses for that pre-industrial age, and with the Spanish Flu post-industrial age but pre-airplanes. The Spanish Flu was 10%-20% death rate, and targetted people in the not usually at-risk category, the young healthy folk.

    I was just expressing relief that we don't have one of those. Maybe you're saying a 50%+ death rate is impossible, but I believe those can be engineered and have been? I'm less certain about that.

    This is like the movie Melancholia for me. I've spent so much time worrying about it happening, feeling pre-emptively depressed about it happening, that when it does happen I'm pretty chill.  
  • HatorianHatorian Dagobah
    I’ve done more than 100 games of Plague Inc on Apple apps.

    i know how this works and the best strategy. You use all your points to spread the virus and make it as contagious as possible but don’t make it deadly. If you make it deadly too early the governments start to shut it down. 

    Instead you need to focus on infecting most of the world without being deadly and then you dump all your points into making it fatal. By the time the governments start the cure your deaths are exponentially increasing and there’s not enough time to save the world... ;)
    Freddy
  • MichaelGMichaelG Seattle
    JaimieT said:
    redlancer said:
    JaimieT said:
    redlancer said:
    JaimieT said:
    God, can you imagine if this thing had a 10% or 20% death rate? Or 50%? Then I'd feel more dread. Ugh, that would be miserable, the waiting. 

    From what I understand that actually makes the virus not spread, the people who get it die too fast before they can pass on the virus. That's why ebola and bird flu hasn't wiped out the world. This one seems like the sweet spot of very contagious but mild enough symptoms that take quite a while to show (if at all). 

    I need to go buy a dust mask at the hardware store to do some drywall sanding this weekend, hopefully you guys haven't bought them all yet...  :)


    edit  --  nm, you guys did take them all. I blame all of you for my eventual silicosis and lung cancer...


    NGL, this doesn't make any sense to me at all. People aren't contagious after they fought it off. Also there's variances in the incubation/contagious period. Also the game Pandemic!

    I... don't think this is a broad truth you're talking about.
    It's that it takes quite a while before you show symptoms and even then usually aren't very severe, but you're spreading the virus the whole time. Very similar to regular flu/cold.

    The 'deadly' viruses you catch, get sick, and die before spreading. Seems to be an evolutionary trait of regular human viruses that they don't want to kill the host, they want to spread. It's these new viruses that jump from animal to human that can be the super dangerous ones since they didn't evolve with our species (but don't spread far because they kill the host too quickly). 

    At least that's what the random articles the last month seem to point out. Now that we have a resident virologist would love to hear their take on pathogen mortality rate vs spreading capabilities.



    Yeah, what you're describing would make it impossible for viruses to become enormously deadly across the globe, but we've seen the viruses for that pre-industrial age, and with the Spanish Flu post-industrial age but pre-airplanes. The Spanish Flu was 10%-20% death rate, and targetted people in the not usually at-risk category, the young healthy folk.

    I was just expressing relief that we don't have one of those. Maybe you're saying a 50%+ death rate is impossible, but I believe those can be engineered and have been? I'm less certain about that.

    This is like the movie Melancholia for me. I've spent so much time worrying about it happening, feeling pre-emptively depressed about it happening, that when it does happen I'm pretty chill.  
    Spanish Flu was 2% death rate, but it was most deadly for 20-40 year olds. 

  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    MichaelG said:
    JaimieT said:
    redlancer said:
    JaimieT said:
    redlancer said:
    JaimieT said:
    God, can you imagine if this thing had a 10% or 20% death rate? Or 50%? Then I'd feel more dread. Ugh, that would be miserable, the waiting. 

    From what I understand that actually makes the virus not spread, the people who get it die too fast before they can pass on the virus. That's why ebola and bird flu hasn't wiped out the world. This one seems like the sweet spot of very contagious but mild enough symptoms that take quite a while to show (if at all). 

    I need to go buy a dust mask at the hardware store to do some drywall sanding this weekend, hopefully you guys haven't bought them all yet...  :)


    edit  --  nm, you guys did take them all. I blame all of you for my eventual silicosis and lung cancer...


    NGL, this doesn't make any sense to me at all. People aren't contagious after they fought it off. Also there's variances in the incubation/contagious period. Also the game Pandemic!

    I... don't think this is a broad truth you're talking about.
    It's that it takes quite a while before you show symptoms and even then usually aren't very severe, but you're spreading the virus the whole time. Very similar to regular flu/cold.

    The 'deadly' viruses you catch, get sick, and die before spreading. Seems to be an evolutionary trait of regular human viruses that they don't want to kill the host, they want to spread. It's these new viruses that jump from animal to human that can be the super dangerous ones since they didn't evolve with our species (but don't spread far because they kill the host too quickly). 

    At least that's what the random articles the last month seem to point out. Now that we have a resident virologist would love to hear their take on pathogen mortality rate vs spreading capabilities.



    Yeah, what you're describing would make it impossible for viruses to become enormously deadly across the globe, but we've seen the viruses for that pre-industrial age, and with the Spanish Flu post-industrial age but pre-airplanes. The Spanish Flu was 10%-20% death rate, and targetted people in the not usually at-risk category, the young healthy folk.

    I was just expressing relief that we don't have one of those. Maybe you're saying a 50%+ death rate is impossible, but I believe those can be engineered and have been? I'm less certain about that.

    This is like the movie Melancholia for me. I've spent so much time worrying about it happening, feeling pre-emptively depressed about it happening, that when it does happen I'm pretty chill.  
    Spanish Flu was 2% death rate, but it was most deadly for 20-40 year olds. 


    No? 

    From Wikipedia...

    It infected 500 million people around the world,[2] or about 27% of the then world population of between 1.8 and 1.9 billion, including people on isolated Pacific islands and in the Arctic. The death toll is estimated to have been 40 million to 50 million, and possibly as high as 100 million, making it one of the deadliest epidemics in human history.
  • MichaelGMichaelG Seattle
    That’s the infection rate. Fatality rate is different. I don’t think I’m misreading the data, I’ve looked a few different places, including WHO.
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    MichaelG said:
    That’s the infection rate. Fatality rate is different. I don’t think I’m misreading the data, I’ve looked a few different places, including WHO.

    I don't know what you're talking about, but I'm talking about the fatality rate.

    case fatality rate (CFR, also case fatality risk, or case fatality ratio) is the ratio of deaths from a certain disease to the total number of people diagnosed with this disease for a certain period of time.

    500 million diagnosed, 50 million dead = 10% 
  • MichaelGMichaelG Seattle
    edited March 1
    I'm not sure what source you are referring to for this data. Here is the WHO report I'm referring to (see page 13)

    https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/handle/10665/44123/9789241547680_eng.pdf


    The 2% case fatality rate is also referred to in this article by Bill Gates:

    https://www.gatesnotes.com/Health/How-to-respond-to-COVID-19
  • MichaelGMichaelG Seattle
    Well just as the shit hits the fan in the US this thread goes dead I guess. Not fun out here in the PNW, but trying to stay positive and vigilant. Everybody stay safe out there - assume it’s there, wash your hands, don’t touch your face. It’s been here for six weeks and no one knew. 
  • cdrivecdrive Houston, TX
    MichaelG said:
    Well just as the shit hits the fan in the US this thread goes dead I guess. Not fun out here in the PNW, but trying to stay positive and vigilant. Everybody stay safe out there - assume it’s there, wash your hands, don’t touch your face. It’s been here for six weeks and no one knew. 
    Don't get your dauber down, @MichaelG. Hang in there. I know it has to be really worrying with the big cluster right in your backyard. Keep us up to date.
    MichaelG
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    Two cases in Georgia now.

    At this point, I'm planning on being out with the flu for a week. This thing is everywhere. We don't even have the proper ability to test for it... a huge cluster.
    MichaelG
  • redlancer said:
    JaimieT said:
    redlancer said:
    JaimieT said:
    God, can you imagine if this thing had a 10% or 20% death rate? Or 50%? Then I'd feel more dread. Ugh, that would be miserable, the waiting. 

    From what I understand that actually makes the virus not spread, the people who get it die too fast before they can pass on the virus. That's why ebola and bird flu hasn't wiped out the world. This one seems like the sweet spot of very contagious but mild enough symptoms that take quite a while to show (if at all). 

    I need to go buy a dust mask at the hardware store to do some drywall sanding this weekend, hopefully you guys haven't bought them all yet...  :)


    edit  --  nm, you guys did take them all. I blame all of you for my eventual silicosis and lung cancer...


    NGL, this doesn't make any sense to me at all. People aren't contagious after they fought it off. Also there's variances in the incubation/contagious period. Also the game Pandemic!

    I... don't think this is a broad truth you're talking about.
    It's that it takes quite a while before you show symptoms and even then usually aren't very severe, but you're spreading the virus the whole time. Very similar to regular flu/cold.

    The 'deadly' viruses you catch, get sick, and die before spreading. Seems to be an evolutionary trait of regular human viruses that they don't want to kill the host, they want to spread. It's these new viruses that jump from animal to human that can be the super dangerous ones since they didn't evolve with our species (but don't spread far because they kill the host too quickly). 

    At least that's what the random articles the last month seem to point out. Now that we have a resident virologist would love to hear their take on pathogen mortality rate vs spreading capabilities.


    Are you talking about me?  Epidemiologist, but close enough!  I am here!  OK, so how quickly a disease spreads is dependent on how contagious it is in general and how contagious it is relative to how it is transmitted and when someone starts to show symptoms.  So for instance, flu peak infectiousness is usually one day before you show symptoms to about 5 to 7 days after and it spreads via droplets (coughing, sneezing, talking etc. on to a person or a surface, etc.). That causes about 2 cases for every one person with the flu (this number is called the R-naught or the viral reproductive rate, btw)

    Ebola can only be transmitted through bodily fluids and is only contagious once they develop symptoms.  In an outbreak situation, you treat everyone with a high fever as possibly infected so you just avoid bodily fluids. The reason these outbreaks hang on in rural Africa is burial practices. People ritually wash the body of the deceased and it is hard to be culturally sensitive yet informative. A conversation for another time.  We will likely never have community spread of Ebola unless that virus develops the ability to be transmitted through droplets (read about Ebola Reston if you want to have nightmares.  It has once made that jump but only infected Monkeys).  H5N1, bird flu, is notoriously bad at human to human transmission.  Transmits really efficiently from birds to humans, but not so well between humans which is why currently, we haven't had a major outbreak.  This is the one that keeps epidemiologists up at night. 

    Then you have something like measles; also spread by droplet but crazy contagious before people start to develop the rash.  For every one case of that, on average you see 12 to 16!   Luckily, it seems that coronavirus is following a similar pattern of transmission to flu.  Contagious from right before symptoms start to about 7 to 10 day mark (resolution of symptoms in a normal case).  From what I have read, about 80% are cases are fairly mild and by that time, people are staying home. The initial R-naughts that had come out of China were between 2 and 4, but that has come down to about 2-2.5 since it has moved to less densely populated areas.  What is complicating this is there is evidence that there are people who seem to be carriers (never develop symptoms), and people with extremely mild disease, who are serving as community spreaders. This is why we are starting to see cases with no travel history and no cause that makes sense.  

    The type of outbreak that proverbially keeps me up at night is, lets say measles decides it wants to be a mass murderer.  Essentially measles and H5N1's love child.  A disease with a relatively long incubation period (measles), spreads efficiently (MEASLES), high mortality rate (H5N1).  That happens, we are screwed. H5N1 could potentially make that jump if it picks up the the correct genes.  Flu is a virus that picks up gene in mixing vessels (human, pigs, birds - see above comment by @redlancer) which is why our body doesn't recognize them AT ALL and makes them so pathogenic (called antigenic shift).     

    So infectious epidemiology in a nutshell.  Sorry for any typos, trying to answer between meetings/grading.  
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