601 SPOILERS - "The Red Woman"

Director: Jeremey Podeswa
Writer:  David Benioff & D.B. Weiss
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Comments

  • kingbee67kingbee67 Los Angeles Ca.
    Just finished moving into the lands of my birth(L.A.) and just finished right on time for the premiere. So sweet.
    AManIsNoOne
  • That was short
  • OliviaDOliviaD Cincinnati, Ohio
    So the sand snakes avenge their father's death by murdering his brother, nephew and an innocent girl.The double D's destroyed the dorne plot with their fan fiction.
    Elisauncle_gvoodoorattrippyAManIsNoOne
  • jenandtonic1208jenandtonic1208 Alabama
    edited April 2016
    Super shocked about Melisandre. I thought her not wearing her necklace in the bath when she talked to Selyse in season 4 shot that particular glamour theory down.
    Elisamanhattnikuncle_gbrowniefiveMadeflawless
  • OliviaD said:

    So the sand snakes avenge their father's death by murdering his brother, nephew and an innocent girl.The double D's destroyed the dorne plot with their fan fiction.

    I've been a big defender of the Double D's,  but I didn't think it was possible to fuck up the Dorne storyline any worse than they did last season, and they proved me wrong.
    OliviaDvoodooratElisamanhattnik
  • Yea about that necklace, I am not a book reader but I follow the spoiler stuff, is that how this works in the books?  Or is her glamour just a spell?  And if it is tied to that necklace what happens if someone walks into her chamber in the middle of the night, does she look like her true self?  Or hell if everyone knows you are magic anyway why bother hiding your true appearance, just be like "yea this is what I look like with my hair down, but everyone likes the done up version of me better so this is what I look like with this necklace on".
    manhattnikDanielMorrell
  • Wow, the Dorne stuff really went completely off the rails immediately didn't it?  Doran and Areo Hotah were both significantly less competent than the books had led me to believe...
    Elisajenandtonic1208TheEconomistmanhattnikbrowniefiveAManIsNoOne
  • edited April 2016
    Yeah, I definitely hated how they made Areo Hotah to look and sound like a badass, only to have him die before doing anything worthwhile. Like a one-man Unsullied army. 
    ElisajluzaniamanhattnikAManIsNoOneTheEconomist
  • OliviaDOliviaD Cincinnati, Ohio

    Super shocked about Melisandre. I thought her not wearing her necklace in the bath when she talked to Selyse in season 4 shot that particular glamour theory down.

    She wasn't. Continuity be damned.
    Elisa
  • OliviaD said:

    Super shocked about Melisandre. I thought her not wearing her necklace in the bath when she talked to Selyse in season 4 shot that particular glamour theory down.

    She wasn't. Continuity be damned.
    And in the behind the scenes thing on HBO go, they said they've known since season one that she was really that old. I'm guessing it may just be a mistake.

    It's also possible that maybe Selyse saw her true form in that scene, but we the viewers didn't. Because the conversation was about how Selyse doesn't need potions and tricks to see the truth. Maybe I'll make that my new head cannon.
    steph_b
  • jenandtonic1208jenandtonic1208 Alabama
    edited April 2016
    U123577 said:

    Yea about that necklace, I am not a book reader but I follow the spoiler stuff, is that how this works in the books?  Or is her glamour just a spell?  And if it is tied to that necklace what happens if someone walks into her chamber in the middle of the night, does she look like her true self?  Or hell if everyone knows you are magic anyway why bother hiding your true appearance, just be like "yea this is what I look like with my hair down, but everyone likes the done up version of me better so this is what I look like with this necklace on".

    @U123577
    I think it's obvious from the glowing gem that the stone is tied to the magic somehow. But like I said before, she's seen not wearing it completely nude, so I'm not entirely sure what to make of it.

    My interpretation is that her taking off the necklace isn't something she does every night. Like she was symbolically giving up the Lord of Light. Especially when you take into account what she says in the trailers.

    Hopefully answers are coming with the winter.
  • Yeah, I can forgive a continuity mistake with the necklace but I can't forgive the horrible Dorne storyline. And I wasn't even a fan of it in the books, but the show story was so much worst.

    And wasn't Doran's son on the boat with Jamie? Or am I remembering that wrong?
    Elisamanhattnikbrowniefive
  • I really liked this episode. I wish they would of finished the Jon cliffhanger, but I'll take the Millesande reveal.
    I actually liked the Doene stuff this episode. Makes more sense to kill Marcella if you are going to kill the Martell line anyway
  • TheEconomistTheEconomist Chattanooga, TN
    edited April 2016
    I speculate that they're using the Dorne coup and chaos as a substitute for Faegon's landing in the Stormlands. It's enough to start a war and divert troops and attention and be functionally the same.

    @SlytherinSister Trystane Martell was on the ship with Jamie. It's still anchored in King's Landing which makes one wonder how the Sands Snakes got there so quickly. Maybe a following ship or Littlefinger's Magic transporter.

    After watching the HBO inside the episode, I think Melisandre's necklace is magical but not necessary for the glamor. I think she just "turned it off" so she can have a real look at her true self and reflect on the crisis of faith she's having.
    ElisaSlytherinSistermanhattnikIsaacAndrew StadlerjluzaniaBrawnMelonuskDaveyMacfigoamericano
  • LukeLuke Central Illinois
    I agree the Dorne plot is a dumpster fire compared to the books. Talk about a waste of Andrew Sidig.

    From a book standpoint John is as good as dead right? I mean we know from Lady Stoneheart that the Lord of Light Res magic has to be done almost instantly upon death, otherwise you turn the person into a zombie.

    Maybe that would be even more of a gut punch to fans, to turn John into a heartless vengeance machine. Because I don't think he is coming back good as new to marry Dany and ride a dragon like most fan theories had him doing.

    I also thing the wolf warging theory is busted at this point. If they were going to use that they would have at least hinted at it in this episode imo.
    Elisa
  • I was pretty shocked at the Dorne stuff and initially skeptical, but I think it might have been the best way to hit the restart button after the horrible attempt last season. I'm pretty dissapointed Hotah was such a wimp in the show but I guess we get more than enough badass characters already
    TheEconomist
  • Ok, so what are all of the possible ways to read Melisandre taking off her necklace? Here's a list of some possible motivations:

    1) It's been a long, hard couple of days. She rode all the way back from burning Shireen and losing her beloved king. She feels betrayed, confused, and tired. So, she takes off that damn heavy amulet as a little bedtime treat.

    2) Melisandre has had it with mother effing R'hllor. This "god" either intentionally tricked her or neglected to course correct her while she assumed Stannis was the Mannis. So, this is a symbolic renouncing of the Lord of Light. She's done with all his fiery bullshit.

    3) Melisandre is not renouncing the Lord of Light, but she is deciding to reveal her true self to the world. Sure, looking like a hot young priestess has its perks, but it's time to get serious. Perhaps she thinks people will take her extra seriously if she looks like she's even older than Maester Aemon. Or maybe she feels she needs to recognize her feeble physical form, just as she's being forced to acknowledge the limitations of her powers.

    4) Melisandre is committing suicide. That necklace was the only thing keeping death from snuffing out her light once and for all. She's going to bed in the hopes that she will die in her sleep.

    5) She takes the necklace off every night. It's a bedtime habit, like brushing your teeth.


    To be honest, I have no idea which one of these is right. Thoughts?
    TheEconomistUnderwoodGarrison66MelindawrubinMelonuskDaveyMacAManIsNoOne
  • LukeLuke Central Illinois
    I also want to say I am doubling down on my Davos will be glamoured to look like John Snow theory. It just fits so well. It gets Davos and company out of that room, throws a kink in Allister's plan, and makes Mel's vision come true. Hell they even set it up by showing us old Mel in the end of this episode implying she has the power.

    IsaacAndrew Stadlervoodooratsteph_bMelonuskDaveyMac
  • "The Lannisters killed Elia and Oberyn, we should kill their brother and nephew"
    "The Lannisters brother and nephew?"
    "No, Elia and Oberyn's brother and nephew"
    "What about Jamie Lannister, son of Tywin, brother/lover of Cersei, and therefore almost as much a part of their deaths as anyone?"
    "Him we will let live."


    Hopefully this is the end of the Dorne plot, because it makes no sense as a revenge story. I mean, what is the next step in their revenge? Burn down Sunspear to frustrate Cersei when Lannister troops march down?
    ElisaAshleyMihaivoodooratpafroditesmanhattnikAManIsNoOne
  • LukeLuke Central Illinois
    @joepinetree none of it makes sense. Why would Cerci or Tommen ever let that boat leave Kings Landing? Why would they leave Jamie alive? Why would Jamie have not killed the other Sand Snakes on board? Why would the Sand Snakes let him take her body back? Wouldn't it be better to have the advantage of suprise when attacking kinds landing (because it couldn't be more painfully obvious Dorne is being remixed to be Aegon's army) rather than sending what amounts to a war declaration? How does killing Doran and his son avenge Obeyrn? With the mountain and Tywin and hell basically everyone involved in the conspiracy to put Robert on the throne dead is there even anyone left to avenge?
  • mike_kmike_k Sunnyvale CA
    It looks like Brienne took advantage of a glitch in the game when she was fighting Ramsy's men... You know, the kind of glitch where you go around the corner so you can't see the dogs and then when you round the corner they magically disappear. For someone who prides themselves with honor, that was a cheap way to win that fight.
    uncle_gGarrison66steph_bEmanuel
  • LukeLuke Central Illinois
    @mike_k my wife asked the same question. I assumed Pod or Brienne killed them off camera because you can show brutal gore against humans on US tv, but don't kill a dog or people will lose their minds.
    DeeDaveyMacEmanuel
  • What everyone said, the entire Dorne story is a terrible Walking Dead plot. So many holes it's swiss cheese. To make matters worse, the Doran lines from the book are absolutely written for TV, his speech about the snake in the grass would have been perfect. Even if they wanted to cut him out, have him give the speech to Elaria and then have her and the Sand Snakes go start the war. You never have to see him again. 

    This is my favorite book series and I have to say the TV show isn't very good some times. They have so many holes in the story that it's just a hack job at times. What happened to the dogs in the Brienne fight? How did the Sand Snakes magically get on the boat? Wouldn't Jamie keep Trystane prisoner? Who are all the Nights Watch guys willing to die for Jon that we've never even seen before? 

    Maybe I'm being overly critical, but these guys do not pay attention to detail.
    uncle_gvoodooratAManIsNoOne
  • mike_kmike_k Sunnyvale CA
    It is interesting how they left the 'what happens next' aspect of the wall to a future episode. This might imply that if a resurrection is to occur, the DDs wanted to stretch it out beyond the first episode. Perhaps we don't even get a Wall scene at all next week, and @A_Ron_Hubbard 's prediction of a episode 3 comes true.
  • mike_kmike_k Sunnyvale CA
    Also, if Mellisandre is actually of Targaryn lineage... does that make the Shadow baby the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, now that Stannis is dead?
    ElisaEmanuel
  • uncle_guncle_g CA, USA
    edited April 2016
    Coupla thoughts...

    Interesting that they made Danny look like she was despairing when Khal Moro told her they would be taking her to Vaes Dothrak.  ...As if she didn't know they would take her there, and as if that wasn't EXACTLY where she wanted them to take her so that Jorah would find her....

    So....what's the likelihood that they attempt to burn John on a pyre, and Mellisandre ( or her old lady alter ego - which i call Mellis-Andre3000 because that's how old she looks) throws herself onto the flames....do we have  a Mirri Maz Duur death-for-life sitch where John is untouched by the flames and born anew?  This ancient body scene makes me think that she's not long for the show.  

    On the last spoiler cast, you guys talked about for the most part how awful it could be if GRRM adopted stuff from the show as canon and re-wrote the books.  Well...one thing I wouldn't mind is the Tyrion/Varys road show.  Would love for that to be a spinoff where they go around as management consultants to different kings and help them shape up their kingdoms....


    ryanfosterElisaMelindawrubinMelonusk
  • What everyone said, the entire Dorne story is a terrible Walking Dead plot. So many holes it's swiss cheese. To make matters worse, the Doran lines from the book are absolutely written for TV, his speech about the snake in the grass would have been perfect. Even if they wanted to cut him out, have him give the speech to Elaria and then have her and the Sand Snakes go start the war. You never have to see him again. 


    This is my favorite book series and I have to say the TV show isn't very good some times. They have so many holes in the story that it's just a hack job at times. What happened to the dogs in the Brienne fight? How did the Sand Snakes magically get on the boat? Wouldn't Jamie keep Trystane prisoner? Who are all the Nights Watch guys willing to die for Jon that we've never even seen before? 

    Maybe I'm being overly critical, but these guys do not pay attention to detail.
    This is my fear.  I feel the best parts of the show have been where D&D follow GRRM's text to the letter.  When they go off on their own, there are times when things work and when they don't.  Typically this comes down to if D&D DELETE scenes/people for the sake of economy it has pretty much worked every time.  When they CREATE NEW plot entirely, these plot holes seem to develop.  I think without a finished, approved text to start from, there's no urgency to film the scene as it's written or to be faithful to an original vision , and the resulting deviation and improvisation is where the wheels start to fall off and *at best* they start to introduce more questions than they answer.  At worst, it could lead to irreparable inability to suspend disbelief for an entire continent's worth of plots..

    Thats my take...
    voodoorat
  • I thought it was solid, and all of these plot lines have me excited for the future and cautiously optimistic about the ability of D&D to tell this story. No answers on Jon, but I don't know why I expected any in this episode, and that crazy Melisandre reveal makes it feel like this is definitely going somewhere interesting. Everything's coming up Milhouse for Brienne, which is great but also has me worried that something horrible (and maybe Stoneheart-related) is going to happen to her in the future. King's Landing, Meereen, Daenerys*, all of this stuff was fine and good at setting up for the future.

    And then there's Dorne. I'm not going to say that Dorne wasn't ridiculous this episode, but I also can't believe anyone was expecting Doran to have any of his speeches from the books. In the show, he has no children to marry to the Targaryens, so there's no way his master plan could still exist, unless it was in a radically different form. Hopefully this is a sign that the writers have accepted Dorne is a fuck up and will minimize its role in the story from now on, but that could just be wishful thinking.

    Even though I liked almost all of this episode, I'm still preparing to make peace with the fact that some of these plot lines probably won't hold together quite as well in the book. Remember that GRRM has had years to write and rewrite and consider how all of these moving pieces will fit together, and D&D have had far less time than that with only an outline to work with. As long as nothing else gets as bad as Dorne, I'll be fine with that.

    (*Any guesses as to what the rest of Top 5 Life Experiences, according to Khal Moro would be?)
    BrawnDaveyMacAManIsNoOne
  • NathanNathan Winterfell, The North, Westeros
    On the plus side, the dumpster fire that is Dorne has made me sympathise with Cersei. And I'm just waiting for everyone to team up and take down those delusional sand snakes.

    Oberyn is rolling in his grave. I hope zombie mountain kills them all.
    voodooratsteph_b
  • calebthrowercalebthrower South Carolina
    G said:



    On the last spoiler cast, you guys talked about for the most part how awful it could be if GRRM adopted stuff from the show as canon and re-wrote the books.  Well...one thing I wouldn't mind is the Tyrion/Varys road show.  Would love for that to be a spinoff where they go around as management consultants to different kings and help them shape up their kingdoms....
    That would be great...like Ben & Chris from Parks and Rec just traveling around fixing broken and corrupt cities
    jenandtonic1208
This discussion has been closed.