While I agree you shouldn't have to watch all MCU movies to enjoy Cap saying you shouldn't have to watch Cap 1 or 2 is a bit too far for me. That's like saying you don't need to watch Empire before RotJ or Two Towers before RotK. It's a trilogy. Whether you need to watch the Hobbit or Attack of the Clones is a different story. But I don't think it's hard to argue that Cap 1 and 2 are required viewing for the third movie of that story.
I saw the movie yesterday, and this is bullshit. I pointed out in another thread that this is why I blew off comic books. They are taking a page from there own play book. They get you to buy more product by stretching it between other products you wouldn't buy. I didn't like that not watching Winter Soldier made a difference in this movie. I don't wanna have to watch a Black Panther, Thor or another shitty Spiderman reboot to get the whole story. Disney owns your ass. They are doing it with Star Wars and whoever owns DC looks like they are going that route. I can't wait tell the public tires of these movies and they turn on the movie franchises. I want to see the stories get abandoned half way through. I think the studio heads don't care they work on a take the money and run premise. They will be boss some where else when the shit hits the fan. But I'm just sayin.
@kingbee67 I have to agree with @Hatorian -- This is Captain America 3. You are not going to get the whole story unless you've seen Captain America 2. Yes, there are a dozen other movies in the franchise, but Cap 2 is the only one that is required viewing to understand Cap 3. Show me a trilogy in any genre where you can walk in on the 3rd one and pick up from there.
@mr_teaspoon I guess it didn't bother me, but I do get your point that Jim sounded like he was not fully invested in the process of reviewing the film.
As far as character motivations go, you missed Hawkeye. And I think he's the one whose motivation was little unclear. (He's a loyal solder?)
I didn't have a problem with Ant Man being there. It might have helped that I just watched Ant Man for the first time a week ago.
Hawkeye doesn't show up until it's revealed that Wanda is being held against her will, I assume that's the straw that breaks his back. They had some good moments together in Age of Ultron, I buy that he has a soft spot for her.
@Frakkin T This movie was billed as Civil War, I never heard anything about a trilogy. Really that's the whole point if it would have been just Avengers Civil War pt 1 then I think it would have been less of a problem. Now we have to deal with the baggage of Winter Soldier, Agents of shield the spin off, Agent Cater that and a whole bunch of stuff I don't think is worth watching. Maybe if the first Cap movie was better I might have watched W.S. but Cap 1 and Thor and Iron Man 2 were just ok and I passed on the lame filler. In 2003 comic books were riding a wave of renewed popularity with titles like Batman: Hush, Avengers Disassembled and a number of great books it started to dry up around Civil War. I think this is part of why it did.
@kingbee67 But this is serialized storytelling..you know that going in, right? You are upset that a comic book movie is similar to comic books you've read? Besides its not like you can't understand a lick of what is happening. Its all coherent and I think most people are able to get up-to-speed fairly quickly. Kids are going to these movies and I'm sure they don't remember all the details of what happened 3 years ago in the previous Cap movie. With this sort of thing the dividends you receive from the movie aren't as great as they would be if you've watched the other flicks, and thats just kind of the way serialized storytelling goes. Same as with television in a lot of ways.
@Garthgou81 I'm not upset. I just think that this is a bad marketing ploy. This isn't going to happen but would you want to watch a Fantastic Four Civil War episode, going in with all that has happened in that franchise? I don't but some might, I wouldn't want to watch that kid who's playing Spiderman in another movie. Some might like it but me, not interested. Edited. Going back after posting this I looked up Civil War the comic book on Wikipedia. I didn't count all the issues but there were 20 plus titles in there some single but some with multiple issues. Books like Moon knight, Ms. Marvel and She Hulk in there, @ about 3.50 a pop. Maybe that's why I made theses comments.
Oh yeah, its definitely problematic for comics. Those huge cross-over events tend to be pretty awful. They interrupt regular flow great runs on stories.There have been writers I really loved, where they were telling gripping stories, and then because the powers that be decide it was time to shake things up--those runs get interrupted. The writer has to all of a sudden focus on an issue or two dedicated to Civil War or whatever the larger cross-over is. I've seen writers leave due to that shit. At the end of the day they do those cross-overs because comic readers will go and buy all 65 issues to make sure they have the complete experience.
There are similarities of course to the movie/comic problem. The differences being that I don't think you need to see every movie in the Marvel cinematic universe to be able to appreciate one of them as a stand-alone, which is untrue of some comics out there. My dad dropped in on Thor 2 and had no clue, but was able to enjoy it on its own. He had some questions, but nothing that couldn't be over-looked. I don't know...no easy answer I suppose.
My last thing a short story. Didn't see Antman didn't know he was gonna be in Civil War. Last year had a Disneyland season pass. Was at the park one day saw a sign that said Season pass guys get a sneak preview of Antman. Thought was it a trailer or the movie? Should I come back and see whole movie for free? Went to get info from info booth a few feet a way asked cast member(they call employees cast members) she says she didn't think it was the whole movie but what I thought was crazy she added in a sarcastic tone because it was Disney. So how much do we have to buy in this Civil War thing because "it's Disney".
Also didn't see Antman because the free trailer was lackluster.
Antman is pretty fun. You don't seem sold on these movies, so you may hate it--who knows. I was pleasantly surprised with how funny and just flat out enjoyable. It does tie into the other Marvel stuff, of course. But not nearly as in-depth as Civil War does. What I am trying to say, is if you have a night with nothing to watch--you could do a lot worse.
Also, on a different note it does strike me as a bit funny that you don't seem that okay with Disney and what they are doing, but also had a season pass to their park last year. Not trying to be antagonistic, just an observation.
I'm ok with Disney but for all the great things there are some bad things. For instance the same pass I had last shot up in price from around 750 to 1200. to start. My pass was a one time deal so no biggie but it was a big source of controversy around town. Also they pack the park so, it ruins a lot of the fun but I went in off hours on weekdays mostly. My year of the mouse was about 85 percent good but some days were weak. Disney rolls out the red carpet for you like no other but they charge you a lot to walk it.. I've seen and heard others carry on pretty bad about "The Rat" as they call it but like I said good and bad. I think I'm burnt out on superhero movies.
It was a good movie, but I guess I'm not sold on the crucial conflict. Iron Man realizes he killed a kid and now he thinks they need to be reigned in? And the footage of the previous Avengers being used as evidence for reigning them in? That's horseshit. Both times they saved the world from destruction, and now they think they need to take orders from the U.N because some people were killed.
That fight scene made all that horseshit go down smooth, though. Spider Man was easily the best part of that scene, and Ant-Man was by far in 2nd. Black Panther does nothing for me.
I actually buy the crucial conflict, @Dummy because I've been saying to my SO for the past several Avengers, Iron Man, Thor, etc. movies that the destruction keeps getting higher and higher and who's paying for all of this? I mean, if this was real life. I just hate movies that think MOAR destruction for action movies is great but to me it takes me out of the movie and gets boring.
We have one major catastrophe in real life and there's questions and concerns of government funding, but in the Avenger's universe, the damages are beyond anything we've ever experienced and extremely costly beyond any government is able to "fund" to help rebuild - not to mention the number of times this severe destruction has happened. I can see the UN stepping in to reign them in, especially the Hulk, which can cause the most damage on his own.
I agree that the Black Panther did nothing for me, but at least they did his character well.
Yeah, that's the interesting thing about the MCU, the interconnected serialized nature of the universe is it's greatest strength and biggest weakness. So long as each movie is a giant, popular, tent-pole experience in pop culture, it feeds upon that strength. If people decide that they're sick of comic book movies, or the movies themselves dip in quality, then the serialized nature will be baggage, because people will be disincentivized to see new films that they would otherwise be interested in because they feel like they're too far behind and don't want to or feel like they can't catch up.
It's one of the reasons while serialized television ratings go down year after year, with a few notable exceptions (Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones), the number of people who are still invested enough to keep watching dwindles, and new folks don't join because it's daunting to have to catch up on X seasons of television.
What Marvel has done is both amazing, and fragile. It will work right up until the moment it doesn't, and they only can control the quality, not the public's appetite or fatigue. It's also kind of why DC's efforts (in my opinion) are doomed both in the short and long run, because they for whatever reason haven't (again, my opinion) controlled the quality of their films, and they're essentially doubling the fatigue rate.
@Dummy@BourbonQueen Maybe these catastrophes aren't 9/11 level death count but considering the paradigm shift that singular event caused I'm surprised something like Sokovia Accords didn't happen sooner especially considering Tony Stark created Ultron.
I like how Sec of State Ross pointed out a US based vigilante organization violating international sovereignty. Nothing would get international law obsessed Europeans united like an unchecked unregulated US organization of exceptional power. There is enough anti Americanism globally at the UN and rivals like China and Russia on the security council I buy this completely.
It's not like Tony Stark and company came up with this and drafted it. It was clearly forced upon them and Tony thinks maybe they have a point plus it makes their actions all the more " legitimate "
"But, on the other hand, it's sort of useful to represent the non obsessive fan. Hell, I watched and loved Winter Soldier, and even I had forgot that Cap knew Hydra killed the elder Stark. Marvel has to come up with some sort of in universe "previously on" if they're going to rely on that sort of minutia. I just rolled with it, assuming correctly that I had missed something, but not everyone is willing to do that nor would I, had the movie not been excellent in its execution of nearly everything else."
@A_Ron_Hubbard- had this exact issue, also didn't remember that Stankonia(sp) was where the Ultron fight was, also haven't seen Ant-Man. But, to be fair, this is exactly how the actual comic books are, minus the little asterisk in the dialogue bubble that refers you to the footnote with the issue number of the comic book where this information became known.
@TheEconomist Reining in and the government use of superheroes was a pretty frequent comic book plot, even before Civil War. The mutant registration act, General Ross and the Hulkbusters, Nuke had a great Frank Miller arc in Daredevil crossing into Captain America in the 1980s with Frank Miller.
In real life there's now way I think the vigilantism would be tolerated. The Hulk alone is a disaster. And Iron Man was at peace with Bucky until he found out he murdered his parents as the Winter Soldier, and then it's cool that Iron Man gets to execute him? Pretty odd, actually- how many other people did the Winter Soldier kill?
"But, on the other hand, it's sort of useful to represent the non obsessive fan. Hell, I watched and loved Winter Soldier, and even I had forgot that Cap knew Hydra killed the elder Stark. Marvel has to come up with some sort of in universe "previously on" if they're going to rely on that sort of minutia. I just rolled with it, assuming correctly that I had missed something, but not everyone is willing to do that nor would I, had the movie not been excellent in its execution of nearly everything else."
@A_Ron_Hubbard- had this exact issue, also didn't remember that Stankonia(sp) was where the Ultron fight was, also haven't seen Ant-Man. But, to be fair, this is exactly how the actual comic books are, minus the little asterisk in the dialogue bubble that refers you to the footnote with the issue number of the comic book where this information became known.
You know what, I would LOVE if they did that with subtitles in the top left/right of the screen. Something like "Captain America: Winter Soldier; 00:43:17 -- ed" or something. That way I'd both know it was a plot point and not a plot hole, could easily reference what they're talking about when I got home, and it would be a cool nod to their roots.
Just re-watched this yesterday, Captain America seemed pretty over powered in this movie. No way he has the strength to win a tug of war with Spidy, or the agility or speed to out fight him. What happened to his Spider-sense?
I guess it was a very young Spider-"Man" though.
Or to hold down a helicopter taking off, or hold it up, or go toe to toe with Iron Man in full armor?
@Cory You've got a lot of nerve expecting the Marvel movie writers to work inside the confines of the universe created for them. I mean, what are they supposed to do, not completely change the abilities and powers of characters any time it suits the preconceived narrative!?
Huh, I bought it precisely because this is the first super powered fight Spidey had been in, and in the comics he's always inner monologing about finding the right amount of "pulling punches" when fighting street criminals vs guys like Cap and Wolverine versus big bads he can just unleash on. I absolutely believe Captain America could keep a helicopter from taking off. He can deadlift almost half a ton, which is incredible. And Iron Man, I thought they did a pretty clever job of having Cap get his shield in there just in the nick of time to absorb blows, and vibranium is pretty much magic that way. It stopped a blow by Mjölnir, swung by a fully pissed off Thor in the first Avengers movie. Stark's armor is like boiled leather to Thor. And that's not even getting into comic book rules of fighting, where you have to sum up the righteousness of causes, the emotional investment in the fight, who is more concerned with hurting whom, etc.
I just watched it the other night too. Yay for Netflix!
See I always read that Captain America specifically wasn't superhuman, he's "Enhanced to the peak of human perfection" (and Batman is trained to peak human physical condition). That's nowhere near Spider-Man level in my mind.
You say he can deadlift 1000lbs, and pretty sure he can bench 1200lbs (Steve Rogers) but Spidey is shown catching a 3000lbs car in mid "flight" with his hands, while his feet are sticking to the side of a bus (in the video Tony shows him). I'd take Spidey's strength over Cap's. He's also got far more advanced agility... then just about anyone, right? Of course his spidey-sense seems to only activate on convenience half the time anyway.
Cap beating Iron Man isn't a big deal (it sounded like it bugged you a bit more than me in the podcast) but he seems a bit too resilient. Thor hitting his shield with Mjölnir; sure the shield should be fine, but shouldn't Cap be reduced to a blood stain underneath it? lol Still, a comic book world, so I'm not that worried about it.
Cap just seemed "suped up" a bit, probably due to it being his movie and all.
Maybe I'm just biased though, Spider-Man was my favourite growing up, watching the 1967 and 1996 cartoons.
Haha, I actually looked it up, and it seems like the average commercial helicopter's lift capacity is somewhere in the neighborhood of 3000 lbs. That includes any crew, passengers, cargo, or non-standard equipment. So, the question is could Cap keep the heli from lifting the extra, 1500-2000 lbs? If he can deadlift 1000 lbs, I'm assuming he could.
Keep in mind comics play fast and loose with the definition of "peak human ability". I've heard that batman can bench press 800lbs, which is something like 150lbs more than any human has ever done in the history of the world, AND he possesses peak human agility, speed, stamina, etc. That's impossible, of course, but there you have it. Cause we all know his peak lift is going to be however heavy the pile of rubble Robin or Catwoman is buried under.
Well, I don't remember the scene in Civil War right now, but there's also the issue of physics. Was Cap attached to something immobile to allow him to hold the helicopter down? Because if he wasn't, it doesn't matter how much Captain America can lift, the helicopter will lift him and Cap will be doing very vigorous pull ups on the helicopter skid. Spiderman can stick himself to the ground, so that changes things.
Oh man, this is where I tap out on superhero conversation. If this sort of thing bothered me I really wouldn't be able to enjoy these movies. A character like Spider-Man has so many flipping powers, for example, he should be pretty much invincible. I mean...he can sense when danger is coming is way for crying out loud. I just try to sit back and enjoy things. Certainly things will occasionally irk me, but I try to just go for the ride.
Comments
Hawkeye doesn't show up until it's revealed that Wanda is being held against her will, I assume that's the straw that breaks his back. They had some good moments together in Age of Ultron, I buy that he has a soft spot for her.
Edited.
Going back after posting this I looked up Civil War the comic book on Wikipedia. I didn't count all the issues but there were 20 plus titles in there some single but some with multiple issues. Books like Moon knight, Ms. Marvel and She Hulk in there, @ about 3.50 a pop. Maybe that's why I made theses comments.
There are similarities of course to the movie/comic problem. The differences being that I don't think you need to see every movie in the Marvel cinematic universe to be able to appreciate one of them as a stand-alone, which is untrue of some comics out there. My dad dropped in on Thor 2 and had no clue, but was able to enjoy it on its own. He had some questions, but nothing that couldn't be over-looked. I don't know...no easy answer I suppose.
Didn't see Antman didn't know he was gonna be in Civil War. Last year had a Disneyland season pass. Was at the park one day saw a sign that said Season pass guys get a sneak preview of Antman. Thought was it a trailer or the movie? Should I come back and see whole movie for free? Went to get info from info booth a few feet a way asked cast member(they call employees cast members) she says she didn't think it was the whole movie but what I thought was crazy she added in a sarcastic tone because it was Disney. So how much do we have to buy in this Civil War thing because "it's Disney".
Also didn't see Antman because the free trailer was lackluster.
Also, on a different note it does strike me as a bit funny that you don't seem that okay with Disney and what they are doing, but also had a season pass to their park last year. Not trying to be antagonistic, just an observation.
I think I'm burnt out on superhero movies.
Maybe these catastrophes aren't 9/11 level death count but considering the paradigm shift that singular event caused I'm surprised something like Sokovia Accords didn't happen sooner especially considering Tony Stark created Ultron.
I like how Sec of State Ross pointed out a US based vigilante organization violating international sovereignty. Nothing would get international law obsessed Europeans united like an unchecked unregulated US organization of exceptional power. There is enough anti Americanism globally at the UN and rivals like China and Russia on the security council I buy this completely.
It's not like Tony Stark and company came up with this and drafted it. It was clearly forced upon them and Tony thinks maybe they have a point plus it makes their actions all the more " legitimate "
Here's the clip: