605 - "THE DOOR" Spoiler thread!

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  • Don't the children of the forest know that dragon glass kills the white walkers?  It seems like they should because they created them and they fought them in the war a thousand years ago.  If they do know this, why didn't they give the dragon glass spears to Meera and Hodor and kill them at the entrance to the cave?

    What is/was the three eyed raven's roll?  All he appears to do is observe things, so if Bran now has his responsibilities, what are they? 
  • Does anyone remember how many white walkers at hard home vs last night? I'm interested to know if bran's event happened first or hardhome first. Trying to reconcile while they would (I think) head back north to the original tree after hardhome.
    HedgeKnight84x
  • Why children would you create a super weapon of an army of undead winter people that YOU CAN'T CONTROL!! Military tactics 101 people lol. I liked this episode despite the debbie downers!  It was definitely sad because of Hodor and summer.  #savethedirewolves 
    ElisaTheEconomist
  • I have a question. Why is everyone assuming that the mark on Bran allowed the whites into the cave? I thought the mark on Bran allowed the whites to find Bran, and that the magic in the cave could only keep out the lesser whites, not the blue ones? Then the other whites got through by digging in from the top of the cave, which I presume wasn't magically guarded, because who would think of that?! Have we seen the cave keep out blue white walkers before?

    The 3-eyed crow even told Bran that the whites were coming for him now. I guess he just didn't realize it would be so soon.
  • Oh another question- when Bran saw the nights king when he touched Bran was Bran dreaming? warging? in the past or future or present? And why does the Nights King have this power- it just seems this is a whole new power we are just learning of that seemed to come out of no where? Is the nights king able to see the 3ER in dreams or whatever to? Or is it just Bran? is this because the nights king has a special power or Bran?  i feel that since Bran has made contact with the past with Ned hearing him at TOJ and the whole affecting Hodor thing plus the Night's King touching him makes for an interesting direction the show is heading towards. maybe all those theories about Bran causing all the bad things in Westeros will end up being true lol
    ElisaJosh B.
  • Gotta say, this is probably my favorite episode since the Mountain vs the Viper. So many feels and I feel like the HODOR reveal was amazing. It's so tragic
    ElisaMFG
  • EricEric Seattle

    I have a question. Why is everyone assuming that the mark on Bran allowed the whites into the cave? I thought the mark on Bran allowed the whites to find Bran, and that the magic in the cave could only keep out the lesser whites, not the blue ones? Then the other whites got through by digging in from the top of the cave, which I presume wasn't magically guarded, because who would think of that?! Have we seen the cave keep out blue white walkers before?

    The 3-eyed crow even told Bran that the whites were coming for him now. I guess he just didn't realize it would be so soon.

    I believe the three-eyed crow specifically told Bran that the Night's King mark broke the protection of the cave.
    TheEconomist
  • Melissarush10, as far as creating something you can't control, it's called desperation.  The children probably didn't want to have to resort to creating the white walkers but they were desperate in their war against men and so hence they created them.  Additionally, when Bran interacted with the Night's King, that was him warging (or that was more interpretation because Bran's eyes went white) and it appeared it was somewhat in the present or maybe just slightly in the past. 
  • bizmarkiefaderbizmarkiefader San Francisco
    Saw this on Reddit, a guy predicted what Hodor meant in 2014:

    The final time we ended up together, the conversation went like this:

    Me:  I finally figured out why you have a character named “Hodor.”

    Martin:  Oh?

    Me:  I was thinking about your comment about wanting to be an elevator operator.  It’s clear to me now that “Hodor” is short for “Hold the door.”

    Martin:  (laughing)  You don’t know how close to the truth you are!

    So there you have it.  If we ever learn why Hodor says “Hodor” (which, as readers know, is not his given name) and it has something to do with elevators, remember:  You read it here first.

    https://ventrellaquest.com/2014/04/20/got-got/

    I bet that guy was happy last night.

    browniefiveHedgeKnight84x
  • Ok so I have a question.  I was arguing/discussing (mostly arguing) a point with a friend of mine about Hodor.

    Bran worged into Hodor right? I mean Hodor didn't have the white/worg eyes but Bran worged into hodor and his eyes rolled back and then went right back to normal and he instantly stopped being scared and stood up and got to work. so I assume he was being controlled by Bran right? Plus, Bran was worged the whole time he was being dragged out AND past Hodor/willis was having the seizure and his eyes were rolled back so clearly something was happening.  I think it's safe to assume that bran was worged into hodor.

    IF Bran was worged into Hodor (I believe he was?)  Than Bran was making Hodor hold the door, right? So that means instead of Hodor sacrificing himself for Bran,  Bran was forcing Hodor to sacrifice himself to hold the door,  Bran basically murdered Hodor? Hodor didn't have a choice but to hold the damn door.  Maybe hodor didn't want to be torn to pieces?


    TL:DR  IF Bran worged into Hodor and IF he was controlling Hodor that means that Hodor did not sacrifice himself (there are solid points for both), Bran murdered him
    uncle_gJosh B.
  • TheLordTheLord Leeds, UK
    Hi guys and girls, long time reader first time writer! But events yesterday blew my mind so I was wandering if someone could explain in a childlike manner what the hell actually happened at the end?

    Did Bran warg into Hodor as a child to tell him to 'Hold the Door' in the future when the time came? But unfortunately drove him crazy?

    Or did Bran whilst in the past warg to future Hodor (because he could hear they were in trouble) to get him to hold the door but because he was in the past with young hodor, poor young hodor felt the effects of this and went crazy?

    Or is it none of these and there is another explanation?
    Andrew StadlerUnderwoodJosh B.
  • edited May 2016
    I didn't read through all of the thread, so not sure if this was discussed, but does anyone else feel kinda let down by Euron? He is just not at all the mighty, terrifying man I expected him to be.

    I'm also not completely buying Sansa's transformation... all through last season she was a weeping mess the whole time and now she's a badass strategic mastermind? Sorry but that's too much and too sudden for me. I know Littlefinger was coaching her but there was no trace of that at all last season, and now here it is from one instant to the next.

    And here is what I genuinely don't understand: if the Children of the Forest created the white walkers to protect themselves against men, then why are they now helping men against the white walkers? Someone please explain this to me.

    I think the hold the door stuff was super lame. Overall not a bad episode, but I've not genuinely loved GOT for a while now. I liked the Arya stuff the best, those scenes are always well done.
    Josh B.
  • I don't think we know for sure what happened. But I believe that Hodor had his own free will at the last scene. 
    Bran might of broke him in the past to set this up, but until the books come out to spell it out for us it seems right
  • Is it possible that since the children created the white walkers that they also have some sort of weapon against them? Or is Bran the only "weapon".
  • WARNING: Major spoilers if you look at the cast list for the next episode people.
  • Great episode, good posts.
    Don't think this has been mentioned yet

    At the risk of bringing realism into a fantasy world, there's no way Euron and the Iron Islanders can build 1000 ships right? Even if they could build 1 a week, it would still take them almost 20 years.

    Also, how many troops does a ship hold? 100? That would account for a 100,000 strong army which I think is what most are assuming Dany has right now so that might make sense.

    Another thing that bothered me, why were so many iron islanders ready to get inline to kill Theon and his sister? They were all pretty much ready to make her the queen before Euron showed up.



    TheLord
  • Previous seasons watching Bran were boring, and now holy shit! Brans time traveling gypsy voodoo magic journey adventures with the 3ER this season have been fookin legendary. #RIPHodor
  • JamesJames southern California
    Ajas said:

    Regarding the Instant Cast-- when Jim said "No less than 2" (warts on Euron's dick), did anyone else immediately think-- 


    "Fewer."
    I'm missing Stannis already. :(
    UnderwoodTheEconomistvoodooratNathan
  • Here is my interpretation of the Hodor/Bran Warging/Greenseeing scene at the end. Critique away:

    Bran is currently greenseeing, the past in the courtyard at Winterfell. Since he is in that state, he cannot warg into Hodor, like he has in the past. But, while in the past, he was able to use his powers transport Hodor's consciousness, from when he was young (you can see, that Young Wyllis sees Bran, right before he passes out), to Hodor in the past. That is why we see Young Wyllis's eyes turn white, like he's warging, because he essentially is. From his young self, into the future, into his older body. So, Hodor in the cave is not Bran warging into him, that is Hodor doing these things at his own volition, but he's doing it as Young Wyllis. Since Hodor dies, Young Wyllis is stuck in that state for the rest of his days, only knowing that he is "Hold the Door" or "Hodor". That is the last thing in his mind when Hodor is killed, and it stays with Hodor for his whole life. Bran is greenseeing the whole time, and is not warging into Hodor at all during that scene.
    chriskbrowniefiveUnderwoodMrSmeeMelonuskTheLordDaveyMac
  • edited May 2016
    MrSmee said:

    IF Bran worged into Hodor and IF he was controlling Hodor that means that Hodor did not sacrifice himself (there are solid points for both), Bran murdered him

    "Murder" is kind of strong but yeah I believe Bran is ultimately responsible for Hodor's death as the result of his warg-ception of poor Hodor. As the double D's stated in the post-show summary, no one is innocent.

    I'm curious about whether Bloodraven had the same power to influence the past and did any tinkering of his own although I don't know how that could be revealed on the show now that he's dead. But the last vision he has the chance to show Bran is of Ned saying goodbye to his father before leaving for the Eyrie. The only thing that seems significant is that Hodor is there with the opportunity of a warg-ception.

    So is Bran on his way south of the Wall? How will he resume his greenseeing from now on outside of Bloodraven's cave? (and when will we see the rest of the Tower of Joy scene?) Is it just him and Meera or will he find aid on his journey back (Benjen?!) Is Bran's reunion with Jon and Sansa on the horizon? And who was the dude that we saw turned into an Other by the children? I'm wondering if he wasn't someone we've heard of before. Maybe a generic Stark or brother of the Night's Watch? If it turns out he was just some random first man (or random andal) I'll be a little disappointed. [*Edit: it's probably the Night King himself. Initally overlooked that possibility but seems obvious. Still room for a cool reveal about who he was before he was wighted I guess.]

    BURNING questions I can't wait to get answers to or at least answers hinted at. Much hype.



  • joschmanjoschman Fargo, ND

    At the risk of bringing realism into a fantasy world, there's no way Euron and the Iron Islanders can build 1000 ships right? Even if they could build 1 a week, it would still take them almost 20 years.


    Another thing that bothered me, why were so many iron islanders ready to get inline to kill Theon and his sister? They were all pretty much ready to make her the queen before Euron showed up.



    The whole Iron Islander/moot scenes bothered me, too. I will add that Asha came running out of the cave with 50 or so followers and they made off with hundreds of ships. How many people does it take to sail a ship? The math isn't right. The scenes were hasty and sloppy and they validate concerns with the show makers re-writing book canon. But oh well, whatever. Its not the 99.1% blue we are used to with GRRM's writing to pull from, but it's still 96.2% pure which is good enough to get my fix.
    Josh B.
  • All the Sansa hate was warranted during first 5 seasons as she was first a brat who would sell out her own family for her Barbie Dream House. Then she was completely friendless in a moral cesspool and "rescued" by Dontos, further perpetuating her damsel in distress mindset. What Littlefinger showed her was that getting what you want is the only thing that matters, and lying/manipulating/murdering are perfectly justifiable means. Ramsay is the same as LF but he uses cruelty to achieve his aims. But Ramsay brought Sansa to her lowest point and Theon, of all people, helped remind her that doing right for the sake of good is what matters.

    I kept wanting to shout at Sansa, "You're a Stark! You're a Tully! Start acting like one." It's in her blood to be honorable and strategic. It was fitting that when Sansa arrived at the Wall, she wore no makeup, enjoyed the simplicity of a bowl of soup, apologized to someone who matters, hand-made her own clothing and pleaded for Jon to help her do the right thing.

    I'm torn on why she refused to execute Littlefinger, Perhaps it's payback for getting her out of King's Landing; maybe she thinks they're even. It could be that Sansa isn't totally evolved away from her former self, but I think when a character transforms the way she has, it's usually a total transformation. It could also be that she has some scheme in mind that would enable her to use LF to advance her cause.

    Whether LF was lying about Blackfish and the Tullys or not, Sansa sends Brienne to the Riverlands (she should take LF's private jet) where [DIGRESSION ALERT] 

    she can possibly reconnect with Jaime (after he gives Cersei the "bye Felicia") and, dare I suggest.... LADY STONEHEART?!?!?!?
  • LukeLuke Central Illinois
    Also Brienne going to the Riverlands and confirmation that in the show the Blackfish has taken Riverrun. Jamie will leave for the Riverlands soon I bet. What is dead may never die, my Lady Stoneheart Hype rises again harder and stronger.
    TheEconomistMelonusk
  •  

    Reni said:


    And here is what I genuinely don't understand: if the Children of the Forest created the white walkers to protect themselves against men, then why are they now helping men against the white walkers? Someone please explain this to me.


    @Reni, my interpretation of this scene was more of the children being completely desperate and probably not knowing fully what they were actually doing.  So, the children were losing the war against man, so they created the white walkers to help them fight, but then they eventually lost control of the white walkers or perhaps the white walkers started to attack and kill the children, so then the children teamed up with man to fight them and found a truce in the process.
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    EMAW42 said:

    WARNING: Major spoilers if you look at the cast list for the next episode people.

    IMDB has let me down sooo many times before because anyone can edit that. However, yes. I do believe we will see him and I do believe he will be portraying a character from the books that has divided many people on who it actually is. It might not be him in the books but I think it's going to be him in the show.
    Elisa
  • chriskchrisk Indianapolis
    Bo Vandy said:

    Bo Vandy said:

    The only thing that really annoys me about this episode is why the hell Bran decides to warg when the Three Eyed Raven tells him to get the hell out because the white walkers are coming.


    I don't know that I can root for someone that stupid.
    I think the Three Eyed Raven warged into him. Whatever he meant by "It is time for you to become me."
    Either way, there doesn't seem to be a lot of logic there.

    Either it's "Screw the old man and his warnings, even after he tells me to leave, I'm gonna go see how Hodor got his name!"

    or 

    "Bran you must get out of here ... now I shall take over your body, causing you be unresponsive and unconscious as all your friends die attempting to get you out of our tree stump."

    Seems like they could have added even more drama if Bran had seen that scene earlier in the episode but couldn't figure out why he was shouting "hold the door" then later in the episode, with Bran fully conscious (because he's a cripple, it's not like they needed to make him unconscious in order to be a burden to get him out) he watches Summer and Hodor die for him, while he realizes what hold the door meant. That's a better scene in my eyes. 

    In the D&D post episode breakdown, they suggested the Raven was uploading a bunch of information to Bran, so he'll know whatever he needs to know. I'm guessing we'll see some of that later. 
  • chriskchrisk Indianapolis
    edited May 2016

    So Bran getting marked allowed the Nights King to find him, but did the mark also nullify the magic of the cave that protected them from wights? If so, will it have the same effect on The Wall? Or is it a one-time thing? 

    Saw that speculated on reddit, and really like that. Though it suggest that Bran is the ruiner of everything, which is a little much given what he's already responsible for. 

    Also - have to say it's refreshing to see that the Children screwed up when creating the White Walkers. So often in scifi you have this "man meets advanced race and gets lectured to or learns about how awful humans are." In this case the "advanced race" acted out of self-interest and screwed everything up. Granted it was because of the threat of man, but I appreciate the twist. Also, it's arguably a "childish", impetuous act. 
    Elisa
  • chriskchrisk Indianapolis
    edited May 2016

    Here is my interpretation of the Hodor/Bran Warging/Greenseeing scene at the end. Critique away:

    Bran is currently greenseeing, the past in the courtyard at Winterfell. Since he is in that state, he cannot warg into Hodor, like he has in the past. But, while in the past, he was able to use his powers transport Hodor's consciousness, from when he was young (you can see, that Young Wyllis sees Bran, right before he passes out), to Hodor in the past. That is why we see Young Wyllis's eyes turn white, like he's warging, because he essentially is. From his young self, into the future, into his older body. So, Hodor in the cave is not Bran warging into him, that is Hodor doing these things at his own volition, but he's doing it as Young Wyllis. Since Hodor dies, Young Wyllis is stuck in that state for the rest of his days, only knowing that he is "Hold the Door" or "Hodor". That is the last thing in his mind when Hodor is killed, and it stays with Hodor for his whole life. Bran is greenseeing the whole time, and is not warging into Hodor at all during that scene.

    Thanks. For some reason I couldn't figure this out. Makes total sense.

    I have to say it's a little much that Bran can both go visit the past and then warg from there. Seems like it should violate some law of conservation of magic. 
  • HedgeKnight84xHedgeKnight84x East Central Indiana
    edited May 2016
    Unfortunately I was left bummed out by the end sequence last night; I thought the Hodor origin story was very silly (dare I say dumb?), I hate the introduction of a time paradox/time loop into Game of Thrones (these loops are just ridiculous and make no sense to me), and I don't like how doing so now seems to open the door to Bran being able to change history.

    For example, why not go back to Ned's execution and 'warg' into the executioner to force him into a seizure? Perhaps doing so delays Ned's execution long enough for Cersei et al to talk Joffrey out of it?  That's just one example of how everything could be completely changed by Bran's ability, and I don't like this door (no pun intended) being opened on this show.  It just really bums me out thinking about that scene for all of those reasons.

    Getting back to why I think time loops are ridiculous, there's a reason they are a paradox, which is why they shouldn't be used in stories in the first place in my opinion, and this is why:  There has to be an explanation for why the loop initialized to begin with.  In this case, that would require Wyllis to do everything Hodor did, only doing so as a normal kid who grew up to be a normal man, and yet still somehow surviving the Greyjoy invasion, still going north with Bran and everyone else to the wall, and still winding up in that tree, holding the door.  But even if you find that all plausible (which I admit may be the case), it still doesn't make sense because in that narrative Bran has NO REASON to warg into Hodor and screw with the time line anyway!

    It's just so frustrating because on top of all of this, it's not like this particular plot device was necessary in order to get the characters to where they are now.  Just have Bran wake up in the cave, warg into Hodor in the present to snap him out of his fear paralysis, and then get to where Hodor is blocking the door.  Maybe establish at that point that Hodor regains control and then CHOOSES to keep holding the door to sacrifice himself for his friends so that it's not so sad and slave-y (rather than Bran making him give his life without a choice).

    I don't know; personally I never really cared that much about why Hodor was the way that he was, and was content to let it stay a small mystery (assuming it was either he was just born that way, more or less, or perhaps sustained a head injury).  I didn't need to know, and it just came across as ridiculous to me the way they've explained it and tied it into the plot.  

    That's why it's been bizarre for me this morning reading the vast majority of people (fans and a couple of critics) talking about how powerful and emotional that was.  I truly wish I could say the same because in the past I've been emotional just from worrying about Hodor getting killed in season 4, but last night as I watched the show I was just taken out of the moment by all of the (what I perceive to be) nonsense to care. :(

    Moving on, this is more of a nitpick, but why can the zombies climb walls and ceilings like a xenomorph now?  I don't get that at all.

    Lastly, even with Hodor's 'hold the door' moment, those wights are going to be out of that cave soon, and I'd care to guess they can run faster than Mira can drag Bran, so aren't they dead anyway?  I know they won't die, but they should be dead meat, no?

    And the white walkers seeing Bran and touching him in a vision needs more of an explanation IMO because I thought the whole point of these time travel visions or whatever you want to call them was that Bran was essentially a 'ghost' to never be seen or noticed (beyond perhaps being heard as a 'whisper in the wind' when he tried extra hard to yell at someone from the past), yet now the WW's can see him, touch him?  I don't get it.

    I feel bad about having so much negativity here because I've been mostly really enjoying season 6, I thought last week was really good, and through the first 75% or so of tonight's episode I was feeling pretty good about episode 5 as well, but man that last stretch in the cave just kinda peed in my cereal. :-/

    Maybe I'm just being one of those fans who hates on the show because it didn't meet the expectations of my head canon, but this stuff just didn't work for me at all on first watch.  As someone whose feelings on GoT usually range from "I like it a lot" to "I love it", I'm hoping repeat viewings, combined with what is still to come, crossed with more fan takes that I'll get in podcasts this week, result in me coming around on all of this, but I'm having serious doubts at the moment.

    I do like the theory someone mentioned earlier that perhaps the WW are purposefully not going to kill Bran because they think if they can force him south of the wall he'll break the magical barrier and let them cross the wall or destroy it.
    Renisteph_bGeorgeDuncan MacTheLordJosh B.
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    So is Dany getting ANOTHER dude with his dick cut off in Theon?
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