207 - eps2.5_h4ndshake.sme

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  • The prison reveal would have been great in episode 2 or 3, but now they've done so much stuff with Ray that it's going to feel cheap if they don't have a bunch of retroactive explanation. But on the other hand, I kind of just want them to get on with the White Rose vs FBI vs F-Society plot instead of dwelling even more on Eliot's Dexter routine.
    GredalBeebpstraderAshley
  • AndrewAndrew New York
    edited August 2016
    So I think that Mr. robot Telltale game spoiled what White Rose is going to tell Elliot, and how Elliot will get out of prison....

    http://i64.tinypic.com/2qb68sh.png
  • brewseveltbrewsevelt Boston, MA
    Andrew said:

    So I think that Mr. robot Telltale game spoiled what White Rose is going to tell Elliot, and how Elliot will get out of prison....

    http://i64.tinypic.com/2qb68sh.png

    That is probably in reference to Season 1 Ep 6 where he hacks Vera out of jail to save Shayla.
    AndrewdarwinfeeshyRob
  • GredalBee said:

    @darwinfeeshy @TheEconomist

    Yeah, it's lazy and none of that was set up until afterwards.  That's like if the convenient store owner shoots Dom in the face, but it makes sense because he mentions Whiterose as he walks out.  You guys would seem OK with that.  Hey, he knows Whiterose ergo he has some kind of training.  But that's pretty ridiculous in my view.

    @Dummy

    It's going to take some time to analyze 7 episodes worth of dialogue and plot that are supposed to plausibly take place in a prison.  My guess is it's going to crack under scrutiny unless Esmail does some V.O. punch ups in episode 8 to smooth things out.

    So if I come up and stab you, just because I don't like the way you look or talk, it's "lazy stabbing". People get shot, stabbed, beat up everyday without any precursor set up. I'm not sure why there is a NEED to have one here. Leon has been steady throughout the 1st episodes not backing down to anyone (he's been confronted more than once). According to some folks, we needed to see or hear him doing something to prove that he could do this. In reality (which this show does have a little of) that's not always the case. I guess we should have spent the 1st season following Leon and his backstory and how he knew Whiterose, because really that's the ONLY way to make this scene work.

    It's lazy if it doesn't follow xyz, it's cliche if it does something that has already been done, it's tired if it plays on a troupe.

    If anything it would have been lay to just hand is Leon a platter so that we knew what he was capable of. NOT knowing was the entire point. Does this open up for possible "crazy" reveals later sure, but so far most everything has fit into the storyline. Of course I'm sure there will be extreme examples made to "prove a point", if we don't know everything then all of a sudden it's horrible ;)
    darwinfeeshyElisaDummytiarasMelonusk
  • edited August 2016
    Yeah, that's not really analogous to what happened on screen.  We're talking about one guy silently killing (wounding) 5 thugs like a puff of smoke with a knife.  An incredible feat, out of nowhere, with no character basis, to save Elliot.  An "oh btdubs, Whiterose" comment does not fix that.  In fact, I'm afraid it will open doors for other bullshit.  I'm pre-calling bullshit on the next incredible/nonsensical feat that has Whiterose as the punchline.

    @KingKobra You seem to really carry the torch and enjoy "not knowing" in shows, or what I call shady storytelling.  Like criticisms are piling up for The Night Of, which I quit half-way, but that's apparently your jam.  I can't argue personal taste, but "not knowing" doesn't really apply here.  Esmail tried to explain it with a Whiterose connection.  I just don't buy that as an explanation.  Like a lot of things I don't buy in this episode.
    Garrison66
  • edited August 2016
    Well. There's the prison theory. We can assume that Elliot is in prison for the stuff involving Krista's ex-boyfriend, as there's no way he'd be getting out if he was in for the prison break, Tyrell's murder, or anything involving fsociety. Honestly, my biggest worry about this when it was just a theory was that they were building it up to be the big "late season reveal", like Mr. Robot himself in season 1. Having it confirmed here, with 5 episodes still left to go, gets rid of most of my concerns about this season, and I'm now pretty optimistic about it.

    As for Tyrell, I'm convinced there's more to that story. I really don't see why they'd drag out the mystery this long (and keep Martin Wallström on as a starring cast member) just to have Mr. Robot say "oh, yeah, I killed him" and that be the end of it. No way he's dead.
    darwinfeeshyTheEconomist
  • @GredalBee ;You seem to really carry the torch and enjoy "not knowing" in shows, or what I call shady storytelling.  Like criticisms are piling up for The Night Of, which I quit half-way, but that's apparently your jam.  I can't argue personal taste, but "not knowing" doesn't really apply here.  Esmail tried to explain it with a Whiterose connection.  I just don't buy that as an explanation.  Like a lot of things I don't buy in this episode.
    In a Leon voice, "Bruh, you got like, so much anger coming from your comments. It don't do ya any good to keep carryin on like that, you feel me? Really brings down the energy in the area, shakin' all our psyches, disrupting. Kinda like dat Kramer dude, ya feel me? Become one with the infinite, bruh. Become one."
    KingKobraJoshKristbrewsevelt
  • edited August 2016
    Yeah, I guess I don't like how episodes 2-3 are quasi-historic episodes, then episode 7 not only features a character from The Walking Dead, it was also written like one LOL.
  • I think the complaints about Leon's fighting prowess are pretty laughable. Virtually anyone could have done what he did; everyone was unarmed with their backs to him and one of them had his pants down with his dick in his hand.
    darwinfeeshyKingKobraGredalBeeBlanchMelonusk
  • TheEconomistTheEconomist Chattanooga, TN
    edited August 2016
    @alexander.klassen
    Wouldn't surprise me if Elliot ended up in Rikers or some similar shit hole. But maybe you aren't familiar with how bad jails and prisons in NY or the US in general are if you think this is terrible. Notice no US commenter takes issue with the prison conditions or how any of it is feasible beyond the personal capabilities of Leon.

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/rikers-island-history-inmate-abuse-allegations-surveillance-videos/story?id=39234996

    @GredalBee Storytelling wise it's a super troupe and perhaps the stylistic violence is with too many assailants, but to maintain the reveal and mystery you can't tip off someone like Leon.

    Would it of made you feel better if Leon was Chinese with Triad tattoos that could have connection to Whiterose the Chinese Minister of State Security and leader of a hacking group and other goons willing to shoot up the FBI and commit suicide rather than be captured?

    I can't argue too much with you that with a knife that small Leon did kill one too many guys off guard with no real resistance. 2 or 3 guys fine but a whole gang eh maybe not at least not that quickly.
  • GredalBee said:

    Yeah, that's not really analogous to what happened on screen.  We're talking about one guy silently killing (wounding) 5 thugs like a puff of smoke with a knife.  An incredible feat, out of nowhere, with no character basis, to save Elliot.  An "oh btdubs, Whiterose" comment does not fix that.  In fact, I'm afraid it will open doors for other bullshit.  I'm pre-calling bullshit on the next incredible/nonsensical feat that has Whiterose as the punchline.

    @KingKobra You seem to really carry the torch and enjoy "not knowing" in shows, or what I call shady storytelling.  Like criticisms are piling up for The Night Of, which I quit half-way, but that's apparently your jam.  I can't argue personal taste, but "not knowing" doesn't really apply here.  Esmail tried to explain it with a Whiterose connection.  I just don't buy that as an explanation.  Like a lot of things I don't buy in this episode.

    It's not about "not knowing" it's about sometimes just letting the story play out. People these days are so quick to judge (especially negatively). I let the story play out then decide since some turns shows will come back and address the concerns. Why am I going to waste energy on that negativity when it could be explained later on? We don't know why Elliot was in Jail nor do we know why or for how long Leon has been there. Leon could very well be a long term visitor at that jail. There are lots of explanations to be had, none of which HAVE to be shown, it would be nice if they did, but for me it's not a need. Whiterose has connections everywhere, we know the DA is operating within US borders. The "mystery" is how deep are they imbedded and how much pull do they have (we know WR is in a position of high power already).

    Btw it's ok to differ opinions l ;) not sure why it's such a big deal to counter ones "argument" with an opinion. If someone didn't want to discuss then why post? Of a show really makes you upset why watch? It's something I've never understood. I value my free time and hate watching a show is something I do t have time for ;)
    Elisa
  • Esmail is a great fertile bitch of head scratching confusion
    GredalBeedarwinfeeshy
  • TheEconomistTheEconomist Chattanooga, TN
    edited August 2016
    KingKobra said:

    GredalBee said:

    Yeah, that's not really analogous to what happened on screen.  We're talking about one guy silently killing (wounding) 5 thugs like a puff of smoke with a knife.  An incredible feat, out of nowhere, with no character basis, to save Elliot.  An "oh btdubs, Whiterose" comment does not fix that.  In fact, I'm afraid it will open doors for other bullshit.  I'm pre-calling bullshit on the next incredible/nonsensical feat that has Whiterose as the punchline.

    @KingKobra You seem to really carry the torch and enjoy "not knowing" in shows, or what I call shady storytelling.  Like criticisms are piling up for The Night Of, which I quit half-way, but that's apparently your jam.  I can't argue personal taste, but "not knowing" doesn't really apply here.  Esmail tried to explain it with a Whiterose connection.  I just don't buy that as an explanation.  Like a lot of things I don't buy in this episode.

    It's not about "not knowing" it's about sometimes just letting the story play out. People these days are so quick to judge (especially negatively). I let the story play out then decide since some turns shows will come back and address the concerns. Why am I going to waste energy on that negativity when it could be explained later on? We don't know why Elliot was in Jail nor do we know why or for how long Leon has been there. Leon could very well be a long term visitor at that jail. There are lots of explanations to be had, none of which HAVE to be shown, it would be nice if they did, but for me it's not a need. Whiterose has connections everywhere, we know the DA is operating within US borders. The "mystery" is how deep are they imbedded and how much pull do they have (we know WR is in a position of high power already).

    Btw it's ok to differ opinions l ;) not sure why it's such a big deal to counter ones "argument" with an opinion. If someone didn't want to discuss then why post? Of a show really makes you upset why watch? It's something I've never understood. I value my free time and hate watching a show is something I do t have time for ;)

    With serialized storytelling, especially ones where the plot moves slowly, I think people have gotten obsessed with minutia. With shows like Mad Men and Breaking Bad it's fine bc those are tight ships but also more conventional. I was drawn to Mr. Robot bc its cinematography was so different for television. It's unconventional. So when it doesn't follow conventional rules or takes shortcuts some people get bent out of shape.

    Back to minutia, bc this show is moving slowly and it's very mystery nature it's inviting hyper scrutiny. It reminds me of Game of Thrones last season, people getting irritated when Sand Snakes show up on another ship or Littlefinger or Varys gets here or there too quickly. Talk about losing the grand operatic forest for the banal logistics tree. If the story is good enough I'll just roll with it. We're talking about 10 episodes here, we don't have time to flush all that crap out and maintain some level of surprise.

    I don't need everything spelled out and spoon fed to me. I'm smart enough to fill in blanks and make connections. For me that makes me feel smart and connected and invested in the story and universe when I can fill in spots that are satisfying to me. I will concede when you aren't able to do that bc it's a shoddy product then it does suck mightily. I just haven't hit that point yet.
    pavlovsbelldarwinfeeshyKingKobraDummyGeorgebizmarkiefaderElisaMelonusk
  • edited August 2016
    Thanks @TheEconomist - finally some middle ground instead of defending a scene out of Batman.  I also think there's a fundamental misunderstanding of the scene.  You guys know there was one thug keeping watch by the gate in the background, right? So that's 5.  Virtually anyone can silently and completely incapacitate 5 Aryan thugs, including the 6'5 Billy Zane twin? Quit trolling. ;-)

    To answer your question though, it really doesn't take much.  A throw away line in an early episode like "nobody fucks with Leon" is all it would have taken.  As is, his only character traits are punctuality for lunch and he watches Seinfeld.  That to full blown assassin.  Huh.  What did I just watch?
    Garrison66Demic
  • I don't think I was supposed to have felt so disappointed at the prison reveal that we all knew was coming. I actually was beginning to think maybe it all had been to fool us into thinking more than meets the eye was going on. Sadly, unless we get another, larger TWEEST that explains why we needed to be subjected to half a season of the fucking main character in a fantasy, it would seem that too many episodes has once again fucked things up...
    bpstrader
  • pavlovsbellpavlovsbell Brooklyn, NY
    I liked this episode. I was relieved when the reveal (more like a confirmation then reveal of the illusion) happened because I instantly reconnected to Elliot and was able to relax and also anticipate a hopefully more cohesive story once Elliot reintegrates with the other characters. I had been growing more disconnected with the show and impatient with the disjointed narrative. Elliot is already an alienated character with a flat affect, so the prison illusion had been wearing thin on me in recent episodes, but much of S2 has felt like overkill to me. I'm not a viewer who watches the show to theorize endlessly or go down multiple rabbit holes; I just sit back and experience it. My reaction to the Leon reveal was the same as the Darlene reveal: "Oh. Huh." There was likely to be some kind of revelation about Leon because he seemed to be the anomaly in Elliot's carefully constructed control illusion. I was reminded of Post Show Recaps twigging to something off about Leon in the season premiere when he casually expressed a desire to do violence to Kramer. Leon's off-camera Kill Bill takedown of the thugs seemed no more outrageous than anything else in S2, but I think my bar is set lower for this show.
    hypergenesbGredalBeedarwinfeeshyAshleyGeorge
  • JohnnyCharismaJohnnyCharisma Australia
    edited August 2016
    I just don't buy that all that Ray stuff happened in the prison.
    Garrison66
  • Doctor_NickDoctor_Nick Terminus
    edited August 2016
    Some version of this stuff happened to Elliott, so at least we're not completely in St. Elsewhere, Dallas and Newhart dream sequences

    EDIT:  Looked at the ending again, Ray's not in the church group, so he most likely is a counselor or caretaker, so the dark web stuff could have actually happened at Ray's office.  
    Elisa
  • Doctor_NickDoctor_Nick Terminus
    edited August 2016
    Request delete
  • tom_gtom_g WV
    edited August 2016
    I didn't mind that Elliot was coping with his situation by creating the delusion - however - I really did not dig him apologizing for it, and saying it wouldn't happen again.  Didn't ruin anything - just a weird choice.

    *edit* - I like 're-skinned' better than delusion.  Thanks @darwinfeeshy
  • How I've pieced together the prison stuff:

    So, Ray had a computer in his prison office - Elliot wanted to hack the FBI and saw Ray as the only way he could do so while incarcerated.

    Ray knew Elliot was a hacker who hacked his shrink's ex-boyfriend and stole a dog. The dog had a microchip, which was how the cops found Elliot in the first place. Ray knew all this, needed help with his darknet problems and enticed Elliot by using the prison's bloodhound to befriend Elliot.

    Elliot went from the hospital ward to solitary until he agreed to cooperate. 

    Ray had a change of heart and welcomed the impending arrest, and warned Elliot that others would not be forgiving. 

    Others weren't and the secret superninja saved the day. 
    hypergenesbGarrison66GredalBeeElisaMelonuskbrewsevelt
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  • edited August 2016
    I think everybody is losing the forest for the trees, here. Every event in prison DID happen, but the surroundings and certain minor characters (like Elliot's mom) were just "re-skinned" by Elliot. Ray is probably the warden and can do whatever the fuck he wants, like in Shawshank Redemption. That's why he has so much freedom to do what he wants with Elliot. Leon stabbed those dudes in a secluded area. Everything they've shown could realistically happen in a prison.
    Elisa
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  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • edited August 2016

    Wow, what a terrible prison. Entire gangs are getting brutally murdered by ninjas...




    I'm with you here. Now that we know it was a prison, there's a lot wrong with that arc. First of all what was the point? Ray seemingly has nothing to do with the main storyline. Turns out he's just some sentimental doofuss that needs redeeming.

    This whole time Elliott had a super skilled personal bodyguard assigned to him by White Rose who can take out a prison gang in nothing flat but couldn't help out against Ray and his thugs?

    Now we could fall back on the "unreliable narrator" trope and say this is just the way Elliott perceives things. But that's starting to feel like a cheap trick. It allows for anything. Maybe the next time Elliot is surrounded by a bunch of goons that mean him harm, a spaceship flies over him and beams him up to safety and everyone can surmise that it must've been something else like the cops or something but this is just the way Elliot remembers it.
    GredalBee
  • I think everybody is losing the forest for the trees, here. Every event in prison DID happen, but the surroundings and certain minor characters (like Elliot's mom) were just "re-skinned" by Elliot. Ray is probably the warden and can do whatever the fuck he wants, like in Shawshank Redemption. That's why he has so much freedom to do what he wants with Elliot. Leon stabbed those dudes in a secluded area. Everything they've shown could realistically happen in a prison.

    And it turns out we are all left guessing because of the unreliable narrator trope.



  • KingKobra said:

     Sad about Tyrell though, was looking forward to more of him. For some reason I'm not sure I trust what was said, but I may just have to sit on that one.

    I agree. I was actually a huge fan of his character because he was so interesting in his self-destruction. I also thought the Rami Malek and Martin Wallström had great on-screen chemistry. If he really is dead, then I feel like Joanna's entire storyline has been pointless this season. And who has been sending her the gifts?!
  • AndrewAndrew New York
    edited August 2016
    I never liked the prison theory either, although the evidence kept mounting, like Cisco in a bathroom.

    A lot of the Ray stuff doesn't seem to track. When he knew the FBI was coming (inside the prison? But stealthy?) and told Elliot to "leave before they get here," that makes no sense.

    Him creating an open market system, that dealt with all kinds of illicit product, that he was unaware of, but other prisoners knew he owned and used makes no sense. And if they only connected the dots after the arrest, who told them the details?

    And why didn't Ray look when RT looked? Only Elliot had the charisma to make him change?

    Even Elliot's Adderol trip was a vision inside a vision... Yikes.

    Hot Carla being a man: makes sense. Hot Carla being allowed to burn things regularly, not so much.

    Darlene asking for Elliot's help to hack the FBI is kind of preposterous as well. He's in jail. How's he getting to a terminal?
    GredalBeeJoshKristghm3Garrison66
  • pavlovsbellpavlovsbell Brooklyn, NY
    edited August 2016

    Wow, what a terrible prison. Entire gangs are getting brutally murdered by ninjas...




    I'm with you here. Now that we know it was a prison, there's a lot wrong with that arc. First of all what was the point? Ray seemingly has nothing to do with the main storyline. Turns out he's just some sentimental doofuss that needs redeeming. 
    Elliot is the main storyline. Ray was Elliot's logic bomb, to remind him that he can do good. It was a callback to the first episode. And it got him back to hacking and to call a truce with his dad. 
    KingKobraElisa
This discussion has been closed.