105 - "Contrapasso"

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  • In the scene with Ford and MIB, MIB take some out a knife and Teddy grabs it right away. Ford then grabs the knife and hands it back to MIB. He tells some magic keywords to Teddy who's suddenly rejuvenated and then he snaps his fingers at the piano which goes into overdrive. He's basically showing off his God powers.

    Come to think of it, the interesting part right before this is that MIB talks about searching for a deeper meaning and Ford says,"You can just ask." MIB then says he'd need a shovel to get to the guy who knows. Basically, MIB seems to be saying that Arnold was the real creator (smarter? more creative?). Clearly, there's some animosity between the MIB and Ford and it really hasn't been explained why.
    Doctor_Nickghm3ElisaMelonusk
  • My point is none of the hosts that were in the park were like Old Bill, there's no such thing as any host being contemporary with him.  From day one the hosts in the park were convincingly human, unless you happened to notice their hands up close. The only way you'd know the difference between the mechanical hosts and the flesh & blood hosts, other than the hands, is if you 'open them up' like MIB did. Maybe they simulated blood to some degree, like if you shot one or something, but you'd obviously not be able exsanguinate one like MIB does more than once. 

    My interpretation of stating how old Dolores is was to let us know that there's a much deeper well with her reveries than for the other hosts, because she's been in operation the longest. I initially agreed with what you're saying, in the pilot or whenever they state/show this, but in the next episode or two they show us those flashback snippets during the Bernard/Ford conversation, and they are very clearly vastly more advanced than Old Bill, and Ford tells us this as well. That scene with the younger Ford looking at that android that had nothing below the torso looked enormously more realistic than Bill, but was obviously still fully mechanical.
  • ghm3 said:

    My point is none of the hosts that were in the park were like Old Bill, there's no such thing as any host being contemporary with him.  From day one the hosts in the park were convincingly human, unless you happened to notice their hands up close. The only way you'd know the difference between the mechanical hosts and the flesh & blood hosts, other than the hands, is if you 'open them up' like MIB did. Maybe they simulated blood to some degree, like if you shot one or something, but you'd obviously not be able exsanguinate one like MIB does more than once. 


    My interpretation of stating how old Dolores is was to let us know that there's a much deeper well with her reveries than for the other hosts, because she's been in operation the longest. I initially agreed with what you're saying, in the pilot or whenever they state/show this, but in the next episode or two they show us those flashback snippets during the Bernard/Ford conversation, and they are very clearly vastly more advanced than Old Bill, and Ford tells us this as well. That scene with the younger Ford looking at that android that had nothing below the torso looked enormously more realistic than Bill, but was obviously still fully mechanical.
    Again, Bernard's conversation with Ford when we first meet old Bill clearly contradicts that. Bernard says that when he came on "most" of the hosts that were like Bill had been deactivated. And Bernard clearly was not there since the beginning, since he didn't know about the Arnold stuff. So there were at least some hosts that were like old Bill when Bernard came on, and Bernard clearly came on after the part was open.
    phoenyx1023
  • He specifically said like Bill? Because yes that would obviously contradict that statement, but in that case the Ford/Bernard conversations and flashbacks contradict that statement as well, because they showed us far more advanced androids than Bill while Arnold was still around.
  • Arnold = Bernard

    I don't really buy this theory myself.  However, in the spirit of exploration I was reminded of a scene from episode 1.

    Peter Abernathy quotes King Lear to Dr. Ford:

    “I shall have such revenges on you both/That all the world shall–I will do such things–/What they are yet I know not, but they shall be/The terrors of the earth"

    But when he says "both" he looks at Bernard.

    In one sense you could say that he is speaking to his two creators, hence Bernie=Arnold.  

    If you look at it from another angle though, if Arnold is speaking through the hosts, then perhaps it is Arnold who wants revenge.  In this scenario, I can't figure out Bernard's part in it.


    Elisa
  • I guess I assumed the "Old Bill" generation were pre-opening prototypes. I took Bernard's statement only to mean there were a few of these kicking around when he came on (not necesarily in-use in the park).
  • In regards to the podcast - was the sheriff messed up because of his glitch and that is why he wasn't recruiting the day william and logan got there, I forget the exact timing of that.
  • Doctor_NickDoctor_Nick Terminus
    edited November 2016
    I just ventured to Reddit and ran across a theory that makes sense once you're down the rabbit hole.


    Bernard is/was Arnold and a clone.

    We don't know when the Bernard/Dolores talks are happening in the least.

    Bernard knows Dolores is becoming self aware and proposes the maze to her.  Was that one of the things that led to the repeating revolt loops that may be in William/Logan's timeline?  Arnold likely created the maze.  

    We don't know when Bernard is talking to his wife- 35 years ago?  When the park was new or not opened and there was crappy telecom infrastructure because it wasn't built yet?

    It struck me that we went awfully quickly from Ford nixing Odyssey on Red River, the threats to Cullen and the massive landscaping for Ford's Wyatt narrative, to Wyatt being a thing for the MiB to encounter.

    I'd have to go back and take notes, but it would be interesting to see which story lines Elsie and the Stray intersect with.  Is it completely separate from the Wyatt narrative?  It may just be a point in time of indeterminate age.  The only linkage I can think of is Stubbs goes with Elsie and Stubbs approves pyrotechnics for the MiB, but that actually just means Stubbs continued to work in the park through two timelines.

    Would have to go back and make meticulous notes about what stories are actually definitively shown to be intersecting....
  • edited November 2016
    Westworld's raison d'être are plot driven mysteries (because it's obviously not the characters).

    To me, this is not a great show. It's an interesting show, that makes me wince, often.

    Some of my grievances-

    Week after week it becomes increasingly difficult for me to deal with the poorly written, cliché riddled, dialogue.

    The complete evil brother-in-law trope that is Logan.

    The ridiculous Bacchanal like orgy in the border town called Pariah that just seemed gratuitous. Is the thought process "hey, it's HBO… We can do this sort of shit" And while I'm at it... "Pariah"? Nothing like hammering home a point, hmmm, Westworld narrative writers/series writers?

    In a show chock-full of characters, it's disappointing that there are so few to whom I can form an emotional attachment. Sentient robots, Dolores and Maeve, are about the closest I can come. Though, after this episode, William is starting to seem more fleshed out, although it feels like he's the flipside of the coin trope-wise to Logan- the repressed good little mouse who's about to change, probably not for the better, probably for the savage, probably into the Man in Black.

    I also enjoy as a character the behavioral technician, Elsie. It's probably because the actor who plays her is very good though her story arc feels like the show's ready to execute another time tested trope- the character who sticks his/her nose in where it doesn't belong and gets it chopped off… as well as a bullet through the brainpan.

    The show gives you almost no one to root for.

    Robert's a shit, a megalomaniacal genius of a shit, but a shit none the less.

    The Man in Black is a murderous asshole. But I'm sure many root for him because he's a "badass". But, wait, are you really a badass if the game is rigged so you always win?

    Theresa, the corporations oversight watchdog, seems to work a single emotion... being annoyed.

    And then there is Bernard... Benard, Benard, Benard. What to make of Benard? He might be worth rooting for. More later.

    It seems that Dolores and Maeve and possibly other robots (yeah, i'm looking at you Lawrence) are the ones that we will be rooting for. Maybe that's the point of the show. Humans have lost some of their baseline humanity. Exemplified by the fact that they live in a society where it is socially acceptable to visit a rape and murder theme park for vacation, apparently. However as more and more robots obtain a level of consciousness they will develop a humanity that the actual humans have been lacking.

    About the shows mysteries, the only real show mysteries are what's at the center of the maze, why was it built and where in the world is Arnold. All the other mysteries of the show are due to the withholding of information from the viewer which provides for rampant speculation and theory building for the Easter egg and fan service loving Internet. This sort of "writing for the Internet" is starting to feel tiresome.

    The best scene of the episode was, of course, between Robert and the Man in Black. This is largely due to the superior actors that Hopkins and Harris are but that scene's utility seem to be a way to toss out more tidbits for the Reddit theory mongers.

    The show does have an interesting, mystery laden plot and I'm curious as to where those mysteries will finally land. But Westworld is not appointment television for me. If not for A-Ron and Jim's podcast release on Tuesdays I would probably get to it much later in the week after watching better, more interesting, films and shows. But I thoroughly enjoy A-Ron and Jim's take on things so I make the effort.

    By the way, Bernard is a robot... fo' sho. And he doesn't know it. Ford gave him a sad, sad back story because he's a cruel man (and because it probably keeps his wet wear locked down in a loop of melancholy and perpetual mourning which prevents him from speculating on things like his own existence). But when he finds out he's a robot, he's gonna be pissed. That's when he will lead the second robot revolt in Westworld's history. Because the first robot revolt was led by Dolores 34 years earlier in the William timeline.
    Elisa
  • ghm3 said:

    He specifically said like Bill? Because yes that would obviously contradict that statement, but in that case the Ford/Bernard conversations and flashbacks contradict that statement as well, because they showed us far more advanced androids than Bill while Arnold was still around.

    "Old bill here was always a good listener. He was the second host we ever built. Were you with us in those days, bernard, Or was that before your time?"

    "Most were decommissioned before i was brought on, i'm afraid."

    "They repeated themselves, broke down constantly. A simple handshake would give them away."


    They are clearly talking about hosts like Bill.





     
    DharmaBot said:

    I guess I assumed the "Old Bill" generation were pre-opening prototypes. I took Bernard's statement only to mean there were a few of these kicking around when he came on (not necesarily in-use in the park).

    There are still some kicking around not in use, like Bill. That is not what they meant by decommissioned. Old Bill has been decommissioned.


    Again, multiple characters at multiple points have commented on how unlike current hosts the original hosts were. Ford, man in black, etc. It could be that none of them are talking about the plain reading of what they said. But it would be ridiculous. There is nothing on the screen to suggest that when they are talking about old hosts being different and less lifelike they were talking about hosts that were used prior to release or away from the park.
    phoenyx1023DharmaBot
  • I just realized the 'contrapasso' was Lawrence: He fills Slim with nitroglycerin and then is drained of his blood to save another. 

    Elisa
  • The Void Stared BackThe Void Stared Back Raleigh, NC
    edited November 2016
    about an hour through the live recording and @A_Ron_Hubbard is all like this 
    Melonusk
  • Rob said:

    I just realized the 'contrapasso' was Lawrence: He fills Slim with nitroglycerin and then is drained of his blood to save another. 

    Also Logan getting beaten up/ taken away by the Ex-Confederates, when he was the one who wanted to join their quest in the first place.
  • ghm3 said:

    He specifically said like Bill? Because yes that would obviously contradict that statement, but in that case the Ford/Bernard conversations and flashbacks contradict that statement as well, because they showed us far more advanced androids than Bill while Arnold was still around.

    "Old bill here was always a good listener. He was the second host we ever built. Were you with us in those days, bernard, Or was that before your time?"

    "Most were decommissioned before i was brought on, i'm afraid."

    "They repeated themselves, broke down constantly. A simple handshake would give them away."


    They are clearly talking about hosts like Bill.





     
    DharmaBot said:

    I guess I assumed the "Old Bill" generation were pre-opening prototypes. I took Bernard's statement only to mean there were a few of these kicking around when he came on (not necesarily in-use in the park).

    There are still some kicking around not in use, like Bill. That is not what they meant by decommissioned. Old Bill has been decommissioned.


    Again, multiple characters at multiple points have commented on how unlike current hosts the original hosts were. Ford, man in black, etc. It could be that none of them are talking about the plain reading of what they said. But it would be ridiculous. There is nothing on the screen to suggest that when they are talking about old hosts being different and less lifelike they were talking about hosts that were used prior to release or away from the park.
    Good thinks! As I was typing I began to wonder, would they even call Bill a "host" if he was a prototype. 

    Completely outside the narrative, but it makes me wonder if there would be a fandom connected to the park, ala Disneyland/WDW, who would have coffee-table books with pictures of old Gen 1 hosts and their successors.
  • JamesJames southern California

    "...The ridiculous Bacchanal like orgy in the border town called Pariah that just seemed gratuitous. Is the thought process "hey, it's HBO… We can do this sort of shit" And while I'm at it... "Pariah"? Nothing like hammering home a point..."

    I thought, your other points aside, it is worth noting that most of the towns referenced in the narrative (with the exception of Sweetwater) are actually towns found in southern Utah, where most of the scenery is shot. Escalante is adjacent to the Grand Staircase/Escalante wilderness, and Paria (named for the Paria river) is a ghost town to the south. It was inhabited for ~60 years before being abandoned about 90 years ago. It never had a reputation that matched its depiction here, but many old Ghost towns (such as Bodie, California) did.

    I generally agree with your points here, especially about Logan, but the cheesiness of the narratives in the Park have to be taken with a grain of salt. It is not an actual depiction of the old west, but a mock-up of the old west created for the entertainment of people who are more removed from that era than even we are...
  • Again, it may still totally turn out to be that William=MiB, but it would require some pretty disingenuous editing and some things being said for no other purpose than to fool viewers.
  • Geeze guys, if you think multiple timelines is going to be cheating, don't watch The Prestige.
    Elisadarwinfeeshy
  • The prestige is completely different. It is one thing when the movie or series is silent on a matter and then there is a twist. It is another when the movie or series consistently talks about how things were different back then, and then it turns out that they were showing us a lot of the "back then" and it wasn't different at all.
  • edited November 2016

    ghm3 said:

    He specifically said like Bill? Because yes that would obviously contradict that statement, but in that case the Ford/Bernard conversations and flashbacks contradict that statement as well, because they showed us far more advanced androids than Bill while Arnold was still around.

    "Old bill here was always a good listener. He was the second host we ever built. Were you with us in those days, bernard, Or was that before your time?"

    "Most were decommissioned before i was brought on, i'm afraid."

    "They repeated themselves, broke down constantly. A simple handshake would give them away."


    They are clearly talking about hosts like Bill.





     
    DharmaBot said:

    I guess I assumed the "Old Bill" generation were pre-opening prototypes. I took Bernard's statement only to mean there were a few of these kicking around when he came on (not necesarily in-use in the park).

    There are still some kicking around not in use, like Bill. That is not what they meant by decommissioned. Old Bill has been decommissioned.


    Again, multiple characters at multiple points have commented on how unlike current hosts the original hosts were. Ford, man in black, etc. It could be that none of them are talking about the plain reading of what they said. But it would be ridiculous. There is nothing on the screen to suggest that when they are talking about old hosts being different and less lifelike they were talking about hosts that were used prior to release or away from the park.



    Yep definitely. But it also makes those flashback scenes nonsensical because they were clearly more advanced than Bill and those flashback scenes they were showing were from what he said was over 30 years ago before the park opened.
  • AjasAjas Seattle, WA
    On the subject of Dolores getting slashed by MiB (and possibly secretly having a tracker implanted), you know who else had a dream of being attacked by MiB-- Maeve.

    In fact, in the flashback where Maeve sees her family hatcheted by some natives, who then morph into MiB walking through the door knife in hand, those natives were the same ones in the Red River Odyssey line-up.  And that line-up was introduced and declined by "old" Ford.  So..... what's up with that?
    DharmaBotElisaMurderbear
  • edited November 2016
    Ajas said:

    On the subject of Dolores getting slashed by MiB (and possibly secretly having a tracker implanted), you know who else had a dream of being attacked by MiB-- Maeve.


    In fact, in the flashback where Maeve sees her family hatcheted by some natives, who then morph into MiB walking through the door knife in hand, those natives were the same ones in the Red River Odyssey line-up.  And that line-up was introduced and declined by "old" Ford.  So..... what's up with that?
    I forgot about that. Maeve sees MIB in her flashback as her pursuer enters the cabin. Doesn't the same thing happen when Dolores is laying in the hay, before she shoots her attacker? EDIT - durr, you already referenced that in your post.

    Cripes, do I need a re-watch at episode 5?!
  • KingKobra said:

     Lawerence has different roles when he was with the MIB and William/Delores.

    No, he doesn't.  MiB drops him with the firing squad who make a big deal at how he's the "most wanted man."  Only after MiB kills him do we see him reset in his role as criminal kingpin, presumably at the "beginning" of his story arc before he is set to be hung in Sweetwater.
    Doctor_NickMurderbearvoodooratphoenyx1023
  • ElisaElisa Los Angeles
    Ajas said:

    On the subject of Dolores getting slashed by MiB (and possibly secretly having a tracker implanted), you know who else had a dream of being attacked by MiB-- Maeve.


    In fact, in the flashback where Maeve sees her family hatcheted by some natives, who then morph into MiB walking through the door knife in hand, those natives were the same ones in the Red River Odyssey line-up.  And that line-up was introduced and declined by "old" Ford.  So..... what's up with that?
    I think Ford reworked those natives in his Wyatt narrative.  But yes they are sure playing with time.
  • ken hale said:

    KingKobra said:

     Lawerence has different roles when he was with the MIB and William/Delores.

    No, he doesn't.  MiB drops him with the firing squad who make a big deal at how he's the "most wanted man."  Only after MiB kills him do we see him reset in his role as criminal kingpin, presumably at the "beginning" of his story arc before he is set to be hung in Sweetwater.
    Different roles may have been a poor choice of words way back then. It does follow that he could be he same Lawerence in different points. The "role" I was referring to was the kingpin and the "lacky"/family man he plays when the MIB takes him. Much like Delores has taken a "new role" when she dressed as a gunslinger type instead of the farmers daighter....at this point I wouldn't say anything is "for sure" until it's shown or at least alluded to heavily.



    As a side note, I always find it interesting when people comment in threads while watching the live watch as sometimes it can seem out of left field with no reference point....
  • BTW- a major tipoff to being from a different time is probably that Logan sounds like he is connected to what becomes Delos.  When they walk into town, he says that the park is hemorrhaging cash, we're considering buying them out and right before the park opened one of the partners killed himself.  Doesn't exactly sound like he was referring to something that happened 35 years ago, and this is likely the story of the "money men" coming in that Ford said Arnold was afraid of.  

    If Logan/William/Dolores' storyline is 30 years past, I'll be annoyed at what I think is blatantly deceptive storyline, but of the evidence that does point to it, Logan's dialog here is the most telling.  He says, "Rumor is they are hemorrhaging cash. We're considering buying them out.  Supposedly, this place was all started by a partnership.  And then right before the park opened, one of the partners killed himself.  Sent the park into a freefall."

    It certainly sounds like he's talking about recent events, otherwise he's suggesting the park has been in "freefall" for 34 years (?) and his recap doesn't reference a previous buy-out by Delos at all.  In the end, no matter which theory is true, we will be able to point back at plenty of badly written or outright deceptive dialog and editing that is currently being presented as evidence in the argument.
    ghm3Luke
  • scott777b said:


    - And speaking of Logan's beat-down... Did he smile when William split without helping his boss?

    I took that as a..."alright then, but when we get back to the office I'm making the rest of your life a living hell" smile.  Like, William just made a legit bad life decision to screw over his brother-in-law/boss in favor of his weird affection for a robot he's only allowed to play with for four weeks. 
  • ken hale said:

    BTW- a major tipoff to being from a different time is probably that Logan sounds like he is connected to what becomes Delos.  When they walk into town, he says that the park is hemorrhaging cash, we're considering buying them out and right before the park opened one of the partners killed himself.  Doesn't exactly sound like he was referring to something that happened 35 years ago, and this is likely the story of the "money men" coming in that Ford said Arnold was afraid of.  

    If Logan/William/Dolores' storyline is 30 years past, I'll be annoyed at what I think is blatantly deceptive storyline, but of the evidence that does point to it, Logan's dialog here is the most telling.  He says, "Rumor is they are hemorrhaging cash. We're considering buying them out.  Supposedly, this place was all started by a partnership.  And then right before the park opened, one of the partners killed himself.  Sent the park into a freefall."

    It certainly sounds like he's talking about recent events, otherwise he's suggesting the park has been in "freefall" for 34 years (?) and his recap doesn't reference a previous buy-out by Delos at all.  In the end, no matter which theory is true, we will be able to point back at plenty of badly written or outright deceptive dialog and editing that is currently being presented as evidence in the argument.
     But we do know that in the current timeline Ford is having some issue with money, or at least with shareholders, so there is definitely evidence that money problems are current.
  • *starts podcast*
    *realizes it's going to be mostly timeline theory talk*

    image
    MichaelGMurderbearMFG
  • ClaretoClareto New Zealand
    Damn, I really need to learn the characters' names to understand any of the discussion going on
  • edited November 2016
    These podcasts are so much better now that Jim & A. Ron have (partially) drunk the Two-Timer Kool-Aid.
    Elisa
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