The Electoral College was put into place because the founders didn't trust democracy 100%. This seems like as good a time as any to invoke that feeling. The only thing that is keeping me from 100% despair is that we have over a month until the Electoral College votes, the votes will be counted and Clinton will win the popular vote, and if we see a lot of shenanigans, bad market reactions, outbursts by Trump supporters, etc. the Electoral College could still save us. I'm not holding out hope that it will happen, and most likely we're facing 4 years of President Trump, but theoretically it could happen.
Actually, the electoral college exists because of slavery. Since slaves obviously couldn't vote, a one man one vote system would limit the influence of states with a large number of slaves. With the electoral college and the 3/5s compromise, slave states could have a large impact on national election despite having few people who could legally vote.
But the electoral college won't change. Most states have laws against faithless electors, so no one is going to change their vote, or if they do they get instantly replaced.
The Electoral College was put into place because the founders didn't trust democracy 100%. This seems like as good a time as any to invoke that feeling. The only thing that is keeping me from 100% despair is that we have over a month until the Electoral College votes, the votes will be counted and Clinton will win the popular vote, and if we see a lot of shenanigans, bad market reactions, outbursts by Trump supporters, etc. the Electoral College could still save us. I'm not holding out hope that it will happen, and most likely we're facing 4 years of President Trump, but theoretically it could happen.
It's really state-by-state. Some states require the electors to vote in the direction based on the state's popular vote, some have minor punishments, some allow the state to void "faithless" electors. If this were to happen, then the folks crying about a rigged system truly would - ironically - have a basis.
The electoral college is nothing new. The democrats had leadership with decades of experience in politics and this system is not a surprise. This was a classic case of Democrats taking states for granted, and they got punished for it. If Republicans had won the Popular vote and lost Electoral College, no Clinton voters would give them a second thought, let's be real. In general, the popular vote and electoral college lean the same way in terms of the winning candidate. This is because the electoral college breakdown is constantly changing based on population. Congressional representatives do not update every election cycle so sometimes population in a state, may not, in a given election, be accurately represented by its electoral college value. The reality is we had a very close election, much closer than most probably anticipated, and states that were forgotten or taken for granted flipped. Although I voted for Hillary as a registered Republican (primarily because Trump embarrasses me on several levels, rather than based on either candidates' ideals or goals) I do believe the Electoral College has value. Is it perfect? Hell no, but nothing is. A popular vote, or allowing a candidate to monopolize a handful of large states based on their population does not make this system better in my view. America has been about checks and balances, and we have a balanced system. It's going to work against some politicians sometimes, and sometimes it will help them.
I was very worried last night after the results were becoming more and more clear, and I still have some fears. I've had several hours to think it over and how this even happened and have calmed a bit. I wonder why some people are much more frightened than I. Some of it is based on their religion or race, but I think it's more so our culture. Why? In an age of Google and online algorithms, we self-select our information. If you post pro or anti politician information in your feed, is it a coincidence what type of postings show up, or what ads you see? No. And many (left-leaning) pundits admitted, we don't listen to people anymore. We post about our lives and opinions on facebook, wanting others to validate them. It's not much different than posting a Mr. Robot or Westworld theory on Reddit or our favorite forums. We want VALIDATION. When we don't get validation, we unfriend the opponent, or ignore them from the feed, or simply no longer read their postings. The country seems to jump from the issue of the hour to the next, even when these are big issues (I don't want to get into them here, but I think people know what I'm talking about). This election seems to be a case of "it's not about you" and telling us we need to listen to others and not jump to conclusions before someone with another view has a chance to talk. I sincerely hope my fears are unfounded, that we can truly listen to other people without strangling them, and get back some empathy, because I feel it's sorely lacking in our society. EDIT: This includes me, I need to learn to try to understand the Trump voter viewpoint myself, among other things. I consider myself a balanced person, but even I have trouble understanding how so many people voted R this time around. But I believe I wasn't listening, and Trump supporters may have been intentionally quiet for fear of other peoples' reactions. I think empathy is a pre-requisite to compromise, and if we can understand why people feel the way they do, we just might get a unified and compromising country to truly be Great.
Clinton somehow lost 7-9%,depending on the California count, of 2012 Obama votes against a guy who was explicitly saying some crazy stuff and directly threatening Democratic constituents. Piss poor showing, even had she managed to squeak it out.
Clinton somehow lost 7-9%,depending on the California count, of 2012 Obama votes against a guy who was explicitly saying some crazy stuff and directly threatening Democratic constituents. Piss poor showing, even had she managed to squeak it out.
Many folks did not vote and she "lost" part of the AA Male vote compared to 2012. The lack of voters going out and loss of AA Male on top of not "wooing" Caucasian women fully killed her chances. The Dems become complacent and took things for granted. I'm afraid we will see more of this as YouTube conspiracy theories are "huge" these days. The "it's rigged", "my vote won't matter anyways" crowd is a big factor. Now individually your vote may not matter, but when you start adding up like minded "don't care/don't vote/conspiracy/etc" it adds up and quickly becomes relevant. Much like on these YouTube videos, you don't need to be truthful, you just need to sound believeable enough to go semi viral.
I still think it's unfair that someone could win the Popular Vote but still lose the Electoral Vote.
I mean, say you work at an office of 10 people. Someone's going to go get lunch for everyone - either Chipolte or Panera. 6 people vote Chipolte, 4 vote Panera. Chipolte wins, that's what everyone is having for lunch that day. Sucks for the people who wanted Panera, but ... maybe tomorrow. So why the need to have someone from the office next door come over and say "Nope ... everyone gets Panera today!"
I think we need to get rid of the Electoral College - this is the second time that I can remember that more people voted for Democrats, but the State went to the Republicans. And both times it was in Florida, so there's that crap too. At least Trump's brother isn't Florida's Governor this time ...
Lots of luck with that. No one would give a damn about New Hampshire or Iowa again. There would be mass campaigning in all the major population centers across the country by *EDIT*:pboth parties, because that extra 2 million votes the loser picks up in Texas matters more than carrying Nebraska.
It also states the few times when an elector or two has gone against what they've been instructed to do. Only 30 states have penalties for voting against what you're supposed to do. And even in those states it's just fines.
Still, I don't think the electors are actually going to hijack the election. It would take too many.
@Zsa004 yeah i'm really disappointed and worried, but the hyperbole is amazing. when i said that, yeah, it sucks and that the legacy of this electoral idiocy and recklessness would last decades, but that tomorrow we'd still have our families and our health and we could come to terms with it and hopefully would have a chance to correct this mistake in 2 and 4 years someone replied with this:
"No, we won't. That's part of the problem. He's said numerous times that he's going to repeal Obamacare. Also, certain types of people are already getting beat down in the streets. I guess if you don't have any poor friends, friends who are people of color, etc, its easy to say everything's going to be ok.
But I *am* one of those people, and so are most of the people I know, so some of the programs that have literally kept me others alive are set to be flushed, so no. Everything is *not* going to be ok, and we are *not* going to have our "health and family".
Did you somehow miss all the info about what exactly was at stake in this election? This wasn't about differences of opinion, we're fighting for *our fucking lives*."
you're fighting for your fucking lives? really? you think this is literally going to kill you? if so, you should i guess just commit suicide because it's over and your life is finished.
But if it was a straight vote, and each state had the same weight (the majority of votes from a state counted as one vote from that state) ... wouldn't that fix that problem?
Anyway ... sorry about all the questions. I'm just trying to make sense of it all. Thanks for all your input!
@Zsa004 yeah i'm really disappointed and worried, but the hyperbole is amazing. when i said that, yeah, it sucks and that the legacy of this electoral idiocy and recklessness would last decades, but that tomorrow we'd still have our families and our health and we could come to terms with it and hopefully would have a chance to correct this mistake in 2 and 4 years someone replied with this:
"No, we won't. That's part of the problem. He's said numerous times that he's going to repeal Obamacare. Also, certain types of people are already getting beat down in the streets. I guess if you don't have any poor friends, friends who are people of color, etc, its easy to say everything's going to be ok.
But I *am* one of those people, and so are most of the people I know, so some of the programs that have literally kept me others alive are set to be flushed, so no. Everything is *not* going to be ok, and we are *not* going to have our "health and family".
Did you somehow miss all the info about what exactly was at stake in this election? This wasn't about differences of opinion, we're fighting for *our fucking lives*."
you're fighting for your fucking lives? really? you think this is literally going to kill you? if so, you should i guess just commit suicide because it's over and your life is finished.
i wonder how the hell they survived until 2008.
I think there's a middle ground here. Like this can be hyperbolic but repealing ACA will absolutely cost people their lives. It's statistically true. The damage that this could do to the supreme court and the environment could be long lasting. The stakes are really fucking dire. Anybody who is unhappy with this (I include myself) needs to get active beyond online activism. I'm going to volunteer with my local democratic party and hopefully help to stem some of this for next time. change is made in incremental steps. everything you do helps. It has to start somewhere.
But if it was a straight vote, and each state had the same weight (the majority of votes from a state counted as one vote from that state) ... wouldn't that fix that problem?
Anyway ... sorry about all the questions. I'm just trying to make sense of it all. Thanks for all your input!
I would argue that would be worse, if I understand you correctly. You are implying that if California voted Republican (call it 55% R and 45% D), that they would have 1 vote of 50 for the Republican candidate, and if Wyoming voted Democrat, that they would have the same value (or weight, in the ultimate selection of the President). I do not think that is better, personally. I think that makes the system objectively less democratic, as small states would be worth MUCH more than they presently are, which I think is at the heart of the complaints about the Electoral College. Because every states votes are made up of the number of senators (minimum of 2) and congressional representatives (minimum of 1), your electoral college vote is a minimum of 3. This minimum is artificially inflated due to the senator count which is a flat 2. If electoral college votes were only dependent on population, perhaps ONLY based on Congressional representation, that could be seen as an improvement by some as some states would be reduced from 3 votes to 1 vote.
Yes, in my example, each state would have 1 vote, which would be for whomever won the popular vote of that state.
My thought was it would make each state "equal", but I can see what you're saying that it would just cause the inverse of the problem we have now - candidates would focus on just the small states, instead of the bigger states they concentrate on now.
Can't we just forget this election and keep Obama?
Can't we just forget this election and keep Obama?
this is the weirdest thing to me, honestly. obama is broadly pretty popular, he's got like 55% approval rating per gallup (this compared to gwb's ~25-30% at around the same point in his second term), why such a stinging repudiation of his legacy? i'd understand if it he was unpopular or if the economy was awful, but he's not and it's not.
@trippy they already told Obama they would block any appointment he would make. There is no reason for him to appoint anyone since t would be blocked before it even started.
@voodoorat did you misquote? They are saying they want Obama to stay in office and to "nullify" this most recent election...
I don't think the white union and ex-union rust belt voters believe Hillary Clinton and Democrats think much about them and don't think much of them. Which I think is probably accurate.
Trump won because of two HUGE reasons that aren't popular to talk about.
1. He was able to tap into the "Enough is ENOUGH!" emotion of Americans that are told relentlessly by the media that they should be ashamed of being American. Americans that are tired of being told they are wrong, racist, that they should apologize, shouldn't complain and don't deserve to be respected for their views simply for the color of THEIR skin. Those voters came out and voted for someone they think actually agrees that they shouldn't feel sorry for being born American or white. Voters that were looking for someone to tell them it's okay to be PROUD of being American again. Where the "American Dream" is a reality and not a punch line or lip service. No one is allowed to say that America is the greatest country in the world anymore ... at least not with a straight face.
2. He converted a HUGE number of Obama supporters to his side. The voters that supported Obama 4 and 8 years ago because he promised CHANGE! Those same voters that felt betrayed and used when that change never occurred and it was politics as usual. Those voters saw Clinton the embodiment of the problem they elected Obama to fix. Clinton is a career politician with so many strings attached that she couldn't be looked at as anything other than a puppet. What they saw in Trump was a complete outsider that was, once again, promising Change. The Liberals and Democrats are continuing to be blind to the issues that LOST them this election. They say that the voters are "stupid" "ignorant" "racist" ... I'm saying it's not that simple. People are tired of Politics working for itself and they want the government to be accountable to the People of this country.
... at the end of the day, or early this morning, it didn't matter to the voters that Trump had been accused of being a bigoted, narcissistic, racist, misogynistic, xenophobe. The Left wants you to believe, once again, that America is secretly all those things too and that's why they voted for Trump. The fact is that Americans voted for Trump in SPITE of those accusations, not because of them.
They decided that he can be whatever he want's personally, privately and sometimes publicly ... they were willing to give him a chance to deliver on his promises.
If he's able to make the country fiscally stronger, to encourage economic growth and prosperity, support innovation in our country and protect our country from threats foreign and domestic ... they were more than willing to let him try.
No one expected him to win. I don't think anyone besides Trump expected him to be visiting the White House tomorrow, but he won exactly the way he said he would. It'll be interesting to see a President take office not owing anything to anyone for getting him there other than the Americans that voted for him.
There's not much to stand in his way, the message has been sent and the People want CHANGE.
You may not agree with the message, the delivery or the face of this change ... but half of this country was willing to bet on this businessman to make this country stronger and safer. Let's see if he can pull it off.
Unlikely, considering Trump's total vote was lower than Romney's was 4 years ago. It seems a lot of Obama supporters stayed home or voted third party.
"2. He converted a HUGE number of Obama supporters to his side. The voters that supported Obama 4 and 8 years ago because he promised CHANGE! Those same voters that felt betrayed and used when that change never occurred and it was politics as usual. Those voters saw Clinton the embodiment of the problem they elected Obama to fix. Clinton is a career politician with so many strings attached that she couldn't be looked at as anything other than a puppet. What they saw in Trump was a complete outsider that was, once again, promising Change. The Liberals and Democrats are continuing to be blind to the issues that LOST them this election. They say that the voters are "stupid" "ignorant" "racist" ... I'm saying it's not that simple. People are tired of Politics working for itself and they want the government to be accountable to the People of this country.
... at the end of the day, or early this morning, it didn't matter to the voters that Trump had been accused of being a bigoted, narcissistic, racist, misogynistic, xenophobe. The Left wants you to believe, once again, that America is secretly all those things too and that's why they voted for Trump. The fact is that Americans voted for Trump in SPITE of those accusations, not because of them. "
I'm sorry if my statement was unclear - I was indeed trying to say I'd like to keep Obama in office and forget this recent election ever happened. (I am a huge supporter of Obama, and will be so, so very sad to see him go!)
PS - I took the emoji out of my earlier post, which is probably what caused the confusion.
@KingKobra no, i meant the election results vs. his broad popularity, not the forum comments.
@April_May_June sorry, i understood you, your comment just made me think about how strange it is that obama is popular yet his legacy was just dealt an enormous blow.
you're fighting for your fucking lives? really? you think this is literally going to kill you? if so, you should i guess just commit suicide because it's over and your life is finished.
i wonder how the hell they survived until 2008.
For a lot of people, yes they could be literally fighting for their lives. If you're an American Muslim or Mexican you now have a president who actively encourages violence against you. I have a good friend who much of her extended family is undocumented and they spent pretty much all last night terrified and have no idea how any of this rhetoric will manifest. If me or any of my family were Muslim or even looked Muslim I would sure as shit be afraid.
It's not that he is going to personally come to their house and shoot their family, but he's empowered a whole bunch of violent racists and that attitude has been legitimized. Look at how people were treated at Trump rallies and poll booths, Trump's response, the police's response, and I don't know how you wouldn't be scared. We like to think people shouldn't have to be afraid in this country because of their religion or what they look like but we've shown throughout history and over the last year we're not above any of it. We were lynching people and beating up small kids trying to walk into school for being black like 50 years ago, why are we so sure we're above racial violence?
Unlikely, considering Trump's total vote was lower than Romney's was 4 years ago. It seems a lot of Obama supporters stayed home or voted third party.
"2. He converted a HUGE number of Obama supporters to his side. The voters that supported Obama 4 and 8 years ago because he promised CHANGE! Those same voters that felt betrayed and used when that change never occurred and it was politics as usual. Those voters saw Clinton the embodiment of the problem they elected Obama to fix. Clinton is a career politician with so many strings attached that she couldn't be looked at as anything other than a puppet. What they saw in Trump was a complete outsider that was, once again, promising Change. The Liberals and Democrats are continuing to be blind to the issues that LOST them this election. They say that the voters are "stupid" "ignorant" "racist" ... I'm saying it's not that simple. People are tired of Politics working for itself and they want the government to be accountable to the People of this country.
... at the end of the day, or early this morning, it didn't matter to the voters that Trump had been accused of being a bigoted, narcissistic, racist, misogynistic, xenophobe. The Left wants you to believe, once again, that America is secretly all those things too and that's why they voted for Trump. The fact is that Americans voted for Trump in SPITE of those accusations, not because of them. "
He was able to win 6 states that Obama carried last election.
Penn - Trump received over 293,000 more votes than Romney and 5,400 more than Obama.
Florida - Trump received over 440,000 more votes than Romney and 370,000 more than Obama.
Wisconsin - Trump received 721 more votes than Romney.
Iowa - Trump received almost 71,000 more votes than Romney.
Ohio - Trump received more than 178,000 votes more than Romney and 74,000 more than Obama.
Michigan - The most obvious of all. Clinton will lose more than 294,000 votes from Obama and Trump will receive 166,000 more than Romney.
Unlikely, considering Trump's total vote was lower than Romney's was 4 years ago. It seems a lot of Obama supporters stayed home or voted third party.
"2. He converted a HUGE number of Obama supporters to his side. The voters that supported Obama 4 and 8 years ago because he promised CHANGE! Those same voters that felt betrayed and used when that change never occurred and it was politics as usual. Those voters saw Clinton the embodiment of the problem they elected Obama to fix. Clinton is a career politician with so many strings attached that she couldn't be looked at as anything other than a puppet. What they saw in Trump was a complete outsider that was, once again, promising Change. The Liberals and Democrats are continuing to be blind to the issues that LOST them this election. They say that the voters are "stupid" "ignorant" "racist" ... I'm saying it's not that simple. People are tired of Politics working for itself and they want the government to be accountable to the People of this country.
... at the end of the day, or early this morning, it didn't matter to the voters that Trump had been accused of being a bigoted, narcissistic, racist, misogynistic, xenophobe. The Left wants you to believe, once again, that America is secretly all those things too and that's why they voted for Trump. The fact is that Americans voted for Trump in SPITE of those accusations, not because of them. "
He was able to win 5 states that Obama carried last election.
Penn - Trump received over 293,000 more votes than Romney and 5,400 more than Obama.
Florida - Trump received over 440,000 more votes than Romney and 370,000 more than Obama.
Wisconsin - Trump received 721 more votes than Romney.
Iowa - Trump received almost 71,000 more votes than Romney.
Ohio - Trump received more than 178,000 votes more than Romney and 74,000 more than Obama.
@KingKobra no, i meant the election results vs. his broad popularity, not the forum comments.
@April_May_June sorry, i understood you, your comment just made me think about how strange it is that obama is popular yet his legacy was just dealt an enormous blow.
The voters don't connect HRC to Obama AT ALL beside having the same party. Very different messages during campaigns as well. Many of those same Obama supporters were heavy Bernie supporters and sat out/voted 3rd party. I'm not sure how well many understand just how big the election results are until it was too late. Having Congress, POTUS and most likely SCOTUS in favor of one side was not something that was talked about at all. Everyone stayed focused on the buzz words and how much they hated candidate a vs b. I know a "few" Bernie supporters that are in the "I told you so" phase. What they don't realize is that compromise is how things got done, not with no "checks" or need to compromise things will get "bad" for them.
@trippy they already told Obama they would block any appointment he would make. There is no reason for him to appoint anyone since t would be blocked before it even started.
@voodoorat did you misquote? They are saying they want Obama to stay in office and to "nullify" this most recent election...
@KingKobra hence Recess appointment. If the senate is in recess, the president can appoint officials like ambassadors, or in this case supreme court justices. They fill those duties until the end of the next senatorial session (if they aren't then confirmed). It would be Lame duck as its the end of obamas term. Again it would be temporary and would have backlash (and as of 2014 recess appointments are more limited..).
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But the electoral college won't change. Most states have laws against faithless electors, so no one is going to change their vote, or if they do they get instantly replaced.
I still think it's unfair that someone could win the Popular Vote but still lose the Electoral Vote.
I mean, say you work at an office of 10 people. Someone's going to go get lunch for everyone - either Chipolte or Panera. 6 people vote Chipolte, 4 vote Panera. Chipolte wins, that's what everyone is having for lunch that day. Sucks for the people who wanted Panera, but ... maybe tomorrow.
So why the need to have someone from the office next door come over and say "Nope ... everyone gets Panera today!"
I think we need to get rid of the Electoral College - this is the second time that I can remember that more people voted for Democrats, but the State went to the Republicans. And both times it was in Florida, so there's that crap too. At least Trump's brother isn't Florida's Governor this time ...
But I *am* one of those people, and so are most of the people I know, so some of the programs that have literally kept me others alive are set to be flushed, so no. Everything is *not* going to be ok, and we are *not* going to have our "health and family".
Did you somehow miss all the info about what exactly was at stake in this election? This wasn't about differences of opinion, we're fighting for *our fucking lives*."
Anyway ... sorry about all the questions. I'm just trying to make sense of it all. Thanks for all your input!
My thought was it would make each state "equal", but I can see what you're saying that it would just cause the inverse of the problem we have now - candidates would focus on just the small states, instead of the bigger states they concentrate on now.
Can't we just forget this election and keep Obama?
@voodoorat did you misquote? They are saying they want Obama to stay in office and to "nullify" this most recent election...
I'm sorry if my statement was unclear - I was indeed trying to say I'd like to keep Obama in office and forget this recent election ever happened.
(I am a huge supporter of Obama, and will be so, so very sad to see him go!)
PS - I took the emoji out of my earlier post, which is probably what caused the confusion.
For a lot of people, yes they could be literally fighting for their lives. If you're an American Muslim or Mexican you now have a president who actively encourages violence against you. I have a good friend who much of her extended family is undocumented and they spent pretty much all last night terrified and have no idea how any of this rhetoric will manifest. If me or any of my family were Muslim or even looked Muslim I would sure as shit be afraid.
It's not that he is going to personally come to their house and shoot their family, but he's empowered a whole bunch of violent racists and that attitude has been legitimized. Look at how people were treated at Trump rallies and poll booths, Trump's response, the police's response, and I don't know how you wouldn't be scared. We like to think people shouldn't have to be afraid in this country because of their religion or what they look like but we've shown throughout history and over the last year we're not above any of it. We were lynching people and beating up small kids trying to walk into school for being black like 50 years ago, why are we so sure we're above racial violence?