brr8760 I definitely think having a weird past with religion/cults (basically the same thing) makes this show more interesting. I have the same background as Jim and A.Ron (former JW) and this show hits the nail on the head so often for me, it's crazy. Which makes me wonder if a large base of Leftovers fans have something in their past that connects them to it more than the average television watcher? What connects everyone here? Just great television, or something more?
The cult of J&A...crap, I wasn't supposed to talk about it...time to go do my penance.
But didn't Kevin learn that on his second trip to International assassin when he sang 'Homeward Bound' at Karaoke night? I honestly rolled my eyes when Kevin said he wanted to "go home" when Patti asked him what he wanted.
I think this episode, if anything showed that he fell back into his "old ways" even after his second trip. I mean he was "attempting" to kill himslf over and over again. It wasn't as "genuine" as this moment was where he decided to destroy that world and stay in the "real world".
Yeah, the second time Kevin went to the other side it wasn't by choice and he was just desperate to get back to his family. But as Patty pointed out, for as much as he talks about wanting to be with them, he's quick to run whenever things get tough and the purgatory/dreamworld ended up turning into his new escape. This was about him coming to terms with that.
This season has been great but it hasn't packed the emotional WTF moments like last season. My jaw was on the floor when Virgil killed himsef, when the girls were in the trailer, when Kevin awoke from the drained lake. We knew from the trailer that kevin was going to drown, and could gleen that we'd have another international assassin (we had no clue that shit would happen last season). Each episode alone has been beautifully done but the story as a whole has been a little predictable. And for some reason the music really isn't doing it for me. The leftovers theme is definitely lacking. It almost feels like this season has been a parody of the last season.
This season has been great but it hasn't packed the emotional WTF moments like last season. My jaw was on the floor when Virgil killed himsef, when the girls were in the trailer, when Kevin awoke from the drained lake. We knew from the trailer that kevin was going to drown, and could gleen that we'd have another international assassin (we had no clue that shit would happen last season). Each episode alone has been beautifully done but the story as a whole has been a little predictable. And for some reason the music really isn't doing it for me. The leftovers theme is definitely lacking. It almost feels like this season has been a parody of the last season.
I completely agree with this take. My disconnect from this season and the characters stems from the 3 year jump and the huge transformation in characters that has been partially explained. Also, there being ONLY 8 episodes to explain 3 years of character development and plot changes is crazy to me. I can't believe they could have not put together 10 episodes for a final season. Also, as you said, I think the score for this season has been pretty poor and the show has gotten too cute with the music they have been using. It's been a solid season but I've come to expect so much more after season 2.
This season has been great but it hasn't packed the emotional WTF moments like last season. My jaw was on the floor when Virgil killed himsef, when the girls were in the trailer, when Kevin awoke from the drained lake. We knew from the trailer that kevin was going to drown, and could gleen that we'd have another international assassin (we had no clue that shit would happen last season). Each episode alone has been beautifully done but the story as a whole has been a little predictable. And for some reason the music really isn't doing it for me. The leftovers theme is definitely lacking. It almost feels like this season has been a parody of the last season.
And again, I am dumbfounded that anyone bothers watching previews instead of simply waiting a few more weeks... To have waited all year for a show and then spoil yourself by watching the "This Season On..." clip, is anyone happy they did? I have seen a lot of people complain about knowing those little details--they're avoidable!
@KingKobra I guess similar to JaimieT's point, it depends on how much one considers the extraneous circumstances. At face value and on-screen performance, I think she's more put together and would at least have waited, if not for Kevin, then for John. But there's also the existential weight that's been on her shoulders for 7 years, which is kind of carte blanche and makes all things possible. I also had an unpublished draft last week that surmised if the world didn't end, the Kevinites would start to disband and Laurie's helping purpose would be restored. So confirmation bias - that started happening at the end.
As far as this episode, I remember the first two hotel sequences started in the same room. Here, Kevin is thrown into the ocean. I'm wondering if Kevin's bag-over-head routine has somehow advanced the plot in the hotel universe? Like maybe you start in the hotel. You go there some 40 odd times and you start exploring and ending up in different places. Maybe during his last trip where Nora walked in, he was on a mission on a beach and abruptly got yanked out. So when he goes under on the ranch, he ended up back on the beach, almost like a reset point. I don't know, I'm trying to weave my own narrative and imagine a bunch of Kevin Harvey assassin adventures.
Until episode 5 Laurie killing herself was on nobody's radar, nobody's prediction list, not even top 100 things that could happen this season.
I don't follow a lot of theories, but how many theories were devoted to Laurie's outcome? That's a rhetorical question. The point is her doing anything wasn't on my radar. I didn't expect a Matt-dominated episode in season 1 either, but it's still my favorite of the show, so I don't think it's negative that it came out of nowhere. (I can understand the criticism though, and this is the 3rd to last episode, not 3rd from beginning.)
I certainly didn't need "It's a suicide" in the credits to know she had committed suicide at the end. I don't think you did either? I think you're saying the flashback was all you needed, and then you're saying you are predisposed to dislike that device, which is fine, and I'm not, which is true.
Laurie thinks logically and is able to help people -- but people mistake that for mental and emotional stability. Reddit reminded me of this last night. This woman has joined a nihilistic cult, abandoned her family, fed delusions that her son was a savior, and now lied to people that their dead relatives are speaking to them. And all of this was the logical next-step to a mentally and emotionally unstable person. She did a really good job of letting everyone think she was put-together, because, if I can project myself onto her again, that's also a psychological need. Having respect.
Reactions from an existential crisis are subjective and tangential
I firmly disagree with this. I think we all have unique ways we react to existential crises and, if we could run controlled experiments, they would always be predictable. The reason I say this is, look at our lives now. We are faced with an existential crisis: is there any meaning to how we came to exist? (Seasons 2's theme song comes to mind...) Many people do well by ignoring the question, "letting the mystery be." Some let the mystery drive them nuts. Others invent elaborate religions and creation myths.
If Michael scuba-suicides next week, even with all the shit he's been through, he's the most levelheaded and emotionally controlled person on the ranch and that fate would feel wrong.
I can agree with this. Definitely he'd need more fleshing out for me to buy a suicide from him. And unlike Laurie, who has had a lot of development showing how low she stoops to piece herself together, we'd need more than a flashback to a past attempted suicide. Basically, I think this is a poor comparison, although I recognize there aren't a lot of options.
My thinking that Laurie as a rational intelligent character would at least wait it out is just as subjective and/or true as you thinking she wouldn't want to be around anyways.
I don't know what you mean there. Yes? But we're just building arguments here; that's all it ever was.
Speaking lightly about a subject does not mean I take the subject lightly.
I hear ya, and you're fine. The episode was meaningful to me, but I don't give a flying fuck if someone hated it -- though I reserve the right to ask why. Also, contrary to what someone else implied in this thread, people did not get offended when he was criticizing the suicide last week... they got offended when he started calling them names, which have now been deleted by a mod. People can hijack their own discussions, but I maintain that it's possible to have a civilized (and even enjoyable) disagreement about suicide. Replies like yours are why I'm here and not on Reddit. (And I love Reddit.)
This show, man. This show! In most other pieces of fiction that use dreams, or the afterlife, or any other strange, imaginary place to be an analogy for the inner workings of a character, I normally roll my eyes when the attempt is made. Even more so when the main character sees people in ghost-like fashion. Ironically, then, that I consider this to be one of my favorite pieces of fiction of all time. After last season, I tried to figure out why that was, and for the most part, I could never find a real answer within my own head...until this episode. It's because of the element of belief AND that our main character has mental issues. Both of those things make these kinds of hyper-real, self-help sessions work brilliantly for me. Most fiction use these elements only when needed for the main character to get something and then throws them away once they've got it. In "The Leftovers", this was present from the beginning and stays with it even when Kevin thinks he's better. Kevin really is a mentally damaged person and a single magic trip to another place or an antagonistic imaginary "friend" doesn't hold all the answers. This is a (often times horrific) process. And when all is said and done, the best possible epiphany he can gather is "now what?". Sorry Kevin, that's generally the way of things.
And for a few little humorous observations:
The GR makes an amazing return in the form of it's true leader, President Kevin. When the suit fits...
Kevin's mind actualizing Evie's true family as the GR. Is that what he really thinks of John?
Nora might very well get her cremation wish, except she won't because she's old...or is she? What?
Patti Levin as his defense mechanism/secretary of defense. Having a defense mechanism that wants to nuke everything is certainly rough. :P
Speaking of Patti, Ann Dowd is just fucking amazing. So glad to have her back this season for one final go.
So when Kevin goes to his hotel, or Australia, does he just go with the flow because he wants to know where it leads? Why doesn't he break the stupidity since he knows it isn't real? When he recognizes the five kids he seems to struggle to say anything to them as he continues reading the preposterous stuff on the screen. Just curious what people's thoughts are on this?
@JaimieT I'm not suggesting Laurie suicide predictions were low because she was a supporting character, come on now lol. I'm saying they were low because that character would be the least likely to do it. To some that's poetic, to me that's something that needs to be set up better.
About the flashback - I believe it's there because they needed to at least hint that she was suicidal. I'm glad apparently everyone else saw Laurie as this razor's edge character who was putting on a mask the whole time and she could end it at any moment. 'Cause I didn't really get much of that. She evolved from chaotic evil (s1) to chaotic good (s3) and structurally appeared to be in her best place in the series with her children near and a new lover. Happy, even. And maybe not a bastion for sanity, but definitely better than 99% of other characters in the show. Obviously the suicide plays a little different when you're viewing from that angle.
This is usually where a condescending comment is thrown about watching the show wrong, but it's so subjective and interpretations galore. I mention Michael because while we both agree that his suicide wouldn't feel right, I guarantee there's a lot of people that think he's ripe for it after the messiah is debunked, he's complicit in two murders, and his sister was blown up. They're not wrong. And I don't think I'm wrong to want a more clear set up than just flashback scene.
So when Kevin goes to his hotel, or Australia, does he just go with the flow because he wants to know where it leads? Why doesn't he break the stupidity since he knows it isn't real? When he recognizes the five kids he seems to struggle to say anything to them as he continues reading the preposterous stuff on the screen. Just curious what people's thoughts are on this?
He can't break what he doesn't know isn't real....The "other side" is VERY real to him, so I'm not sure why you would say that. He struggles, IMO because 1) it's actually the kids and 2 they are all missing shoes. He struggles with Evie as well.
I was very disappointed in this episode. I loved Season 2's International Assassin episode, maybe one of my favorite all time episodes of any show on TV. But this one was just terrible for me. I had zero emotional connection to it, and frankly it went over my head. I've generally been able to keep up with the themes for the most part, but somewhere Season 3 has lost me. I don't know if it's because I'm not religious and don't know the bible? The whole Matt and God thing on the boat went over my head. Laurie committing suicide didn't make sense to me; I thought she had found peace. And Kevin is supposed to feel bad about Nora? Huh? And the whole presidential angle is either very coincidental based on current events, or it's merely a cutesy way to make some kind of political stance by the show runners - which has no place in the Leftovers and that's a shame if that's what they were after. Honestly Kevin Sr. is the only character in Season 3 that I have really enjoyed. I just haven't enjoyed how this season has played out. I find myself checking the clock throughout the episode wondering when it's going to be over. I'm certainly going to watch the finale with an open mind and hope that it's really awesome like the last two season finales.
@GredalBee I can certainly see why Laurie's suicide didn't ring as authentic to some viewers. I think she's been an underserved character of late (partly due to a shortened season), and her recent behavior didn't suggest her being near self-departure. But I always viewed her character as someone with immense pain who, despite her training, didn't have the tools to cope with something as horrific as what she endured. She struggled, as they all have, with the departure. And while she might have finally come a place of calm and normalization in her life with John in Jarden, the journey to Australia clearly reopened her wounds.
I don't understand how there can be debate between rational and supernatural when he's killed himself multiple times and has gone into these other "places".
Lastly, my wife made a comment when Kevin was being taken to the bunker and is confused about the presidential duties that it must be like what Trump's security team has to go through. "DEFCON 2? Is that worse than 3?" "Is this bad?"
Forgot to mention that "God" tells Matt that Jesus has an identical Brother. We then get Kevin(Jesus) as identical brothers.... Kevin would have no knowledge of that convo either. hmm
Forgot to mention that "God" tells Matt that Jesus has an identical Brother. We then get Kevin(Jesus) as identical brothers.... Kevin would have no knowledge of that convo either. hmm
This whole season has had anecdotes where similar people are compared. I can think of a handful right off the top of my head. The questions to Nora about sparing a child, the comment from Mark Baker about saving a kid who will one day cure cancer. Its definitely a theme this season.
I don't understand how there can be debate between rational and supernatural when he's killed himself multiple times and has gone into these other "places".
Because the writers have carefully constructed a story that, as presented thus far, is intentionally left open to interpretation. In the strict technical sense, Kevin Jr. is not seeing anything in the dream place that can't be explained by science, or by us simply not having enough details (they made a point of showing that Kevin Sr. wasn't allowed to record/photograph the Aboriginal people, yet Jr. knew what Christopher Sunday looked like, but we don't know if they found sone picture of Sunday between his death and this last episode...).
I can't understand the twin Kevin twist. Is that a twin brother who died at birth? And why go to all that dying trouble if deep down he knew his Dad was deluded?
Also, I really don't appreciate his guilt over breaking up with Nora. She's such an asshole - she had it coming, right?
And why did aussie god tell Kevin he was the most important man in the world?
I was hoping Kevin-Nora were a kind of Alpha-Omega, Jin and Yang, good v. evil, etc kind of couple. I still think Nora is the physical manifestation of Azrael or whoever, the Lens who zapped her family since they were being such pains at that moment in her life.
I have such mixed feelings all in all about this episode. Much as I loved seeing Ann Dowd again, it all left me rather cold, quite the opposite of the previous episode.
I can't understand the twin Kevin twist. Is that a twin brother who died at birth? And why go to all that dying trouble if deep down he knew his Dad was deluded?
Also, I really don't appreciate his guilt over breaking up with Nora. She's such an asshole - she had it coming, right?
And why did aussie god tell Kevin he was the most important man in the world?
I was hoping Kevin-Nora were a kind of Alpha-Omega, Jin and Yang, good v. evil, etc kind of couple. I still think Nora is the physical manifestation of Azrael or whoever, the Lens who zapped her family since they were being such pains at that moment in her life.
I have such mixed feelings all in all about this episode. Much as I loved seeing Ann Dowd again, it all left me rather cold, quite the opposite of the previous episode.
Yeah, I really can't stand Nora. I know she's a popular character and she has her moments of shrewd brilliance. My first problem with her was how she bought the house in auction without even getting consent from Kevin, and she paid way above market value, which is just a completely dumb decision, but hey, it's her money, so I could forgive her to some extent. But when I officially was done with her is when she turned her back on Kevin when he needed her the most, referring to how he was seeing visions of Patti. She's a completely self-absorbed bitch, and Kevin could do much better than her, as long as he gets his own shit in order.
This season has been great but it hasn't packed the emotional WTF moments like last season. My jaw was on the floor when Virgil killed himsef, when the girls were in the trailer, when Kevin awoke from the drained lake. We knew from the trailer that kevin was going to drown, and could gleen that we'd have another international assassin (we had no clue that shit would happen last season). Each episode alone has been beautifully done but the story as a whole has been a little predictable. And for some reason the music really isn't doing it for me. The leftovers theme is definitely lacking. It almost feels like this season has been a parody of the last season.
And again, I am dumbfounded that anyone bothers watching previews instead of simply waiting a few more weeks... To have waited all year for a show and then spoil yourself by watching the "This Season On..." clip, is anyone happy they did? I have seen a lot of people complain about knowing those little details--they're avoidable!
The previews are meant to tease the coming season. I watch the previews to get excited, which is what I imagine is the purpose for the trailers: to get you excited and to give you just enough information to leave you wondering and wanting more. I was fine with seeing Kevin about to drown in the preview, that got me excited for some real WTF moments, but if what they gave us what just that, Kevin drowning and the result was the same thing we got in season 2, then what's the surprise and shock of it? Now if they showed in the preview Kevin drowning, and he actually dies and doesn't come back, then THAT would be a HOLY SHIT!! moment.
The problem I have isn't with the trailer and previews itself, it's with this season feeling a little too much like last season without the shock value. Season 2 felt COMPLETELY different than season 1. It took the show to a WHOLE new level. I just don't get that same feeling this season. Don't get me wrong, I love the show. I think each episode this season has been great, but the writing has not been equivalent to season 2.
If Laurie and or her story isn't addressed in the next episode does that make ep 6 completely superfluous? What I mean is, you could take out ep 6 and watch the entire 3rd season and not feel like you missed anything meaningful. Therefore, Laurie's suicide (or not) won't mean a thing in the long run.
If Laurie and or her story isn't addressed in the next episode does that make ep 6 completely superfluous? What I mean is, you could take out ep 6 and watch the entire 3rd season and not feel like you missed anything meaningful. Therefore, Laurie's suicide (or not) won't mean a thing in the long run.
It's still the end of an arc of a main character though right? There's one episode left, at some point things are just done rather than setting other things up. It could also easily come back into the other characters story too, who knows what's going to happen in the finale.
Comments
@KingKobra I guess similar to JaimieT's point, it depends on how much one considers the extraneous circumstances. At face value and on-screen performance, I think she's more put together and would at least have waited, if not for Kevin, then for John. But there's also the existential weight that's been on her shoulders for 7 years, which is kind of carte blanche and makes all things possible. I also had an unpublished draft last week that surmised if the world didn't end, the Kevinites would start to disband and Laurie's helping purpose would be restored. So confirmation bias - that started happening at the end.
As far as this episode, I remember the first two hotel sequences started in the same room. Here, Kevin is thrown into the ocean. I'm wondering if Kevin's bag-over-head routine has somehow advanced the plot in the hotel universe? Like maybe you start in the hotel. You go there some 40 odd times and you start exploring and ending up in different places. Maybe during his last trip where Nora walked in, he was on a mission on a beach and abruptly got yanked out. So when he goes under on the ranch, he ended up back on the beach, almost like a reset point. I don't know, I'm trying to weave my own narrative and imagine a bunch of Kevin Harvey assassin adventures.
I don't follow a lot of theories, but how many theories were devoted to Laurie's outcome? That's a rhetorical question. The point is her doing anything wasn't on my radar. I didn't expect a Matt-dominated episode in season 1 either, but it's still my favorite of the show, so I don't think it's negative that it came out of nowhere. (I can understand the criticism though, and this is the 3rd to last episode, not 3rd from beginning.)
I certainly didn't need "It's a suicide" in the credits to know she had committed suicide at the end. I don't think you did either? I think you're saying the flashback was all you needed, and then you're saying you are predisposed to dislike that device, which is fine, and I'm not, which is true.
Laurie thinks logically and is able to help people -- but people mistake that for mental and emotional stability. Reddit reminded me of this last night. This woman has joined a nihilistic cult, abandoned her family, fed delusions that her son was a savior, and now lied to people that their dead relatives are speaking to them. And all of this was the logical next-step to a mentally and emotionally unstable person. She did a really good job of letting everyone think she was put-together, because, if I can project myself onto her again, that's also a psychological need. Having respect.
Reactions from an existential crisis are subjective and tangential
I firmly disagree with this. I think we all have unique ways we react to existential crises and, if we could run controlled experiments, they would always be predictable. The reason I say this is, look at our lives now. We are faced with an existential crisis: is there any meaning to how we came to exist? (Seasons 2's theme song comes to mind...) Many people do well by ignoring the question, "letting the mystery be." Some let the mystery drive them nuts. Others invent elaborate religions and creation myths.
If Michael scuba-suicides next week, even with all the shit he's been through, he's the most levelheaded and emotionally controlled person on the ranch and that fate would feel wrong.
I can agree with this. Definitely he'd need more fleshing out for me to buy a suicide from him. And unlike Laurie, who has had a lot of development showing how low she stoops to piece herself together, we'd need more than a flashback to a past attempted suicide. Basically, I think this is a poor comparison, although I recognize there aren't a lot of options.
My thinking that Laurie as a rational intelligent character would at least wait it out is just as subjective and/or true as you thinking she wouldn't want to be around anyways.
I don't know what you mean there. Yes? But we're just building arguments here; that's all it ever was.
Speaking lightly about a subject does not mean I take the subject lightly.
I hear ya, and you're fine. The episode was meaningful to me, but I don't give a flying fuck if someone hated it -- though I reserve the right to ask why. Also, contrary to what someone else implied in this thread, people did not get offended when he was criticizing the suicide last week... they got offended when he started calling them names, which have now been deleted by a mod. People can hijack their own discussions, but I maintain that it's possible to have a civilized (and even enjoyable) disagreement about suicide. Replies like yours are why I'm here and not on Reddit. (And I love Reddit.)
And for a few little humorous observations:
About the flashback - I believe it's there because they needed to at least hint that she was suicidal. I'm glad apparently everyone else saw Laurie as this razor's edge character who was putting on a mask the whole time and she could end it at any moment. 'Cause I didn't really get much of that. She evolved from chaotic evil (s1) to chaotic good (s3) and structurally appeared to be in her best place in the series with her children near and a new lover. Happy, even. And maybe not a bastion for sanity, but definitely better than 99% of other characters in the show. Obviously the suicide plays a little different when you're viewing from that angle.
This is usually where a condescending comment is thrown about watching the show wrong, but it's so subjective and interpretations galore. I mention Michael because while we both agree that his suicide wouldn't feel right, I guarantee there's a lot of people that think he's ripe for it after the messiah is debunked, he's complicit in two murders, and his sister was blown up. They're not wrong. And I don't think I'm wrong to want a more clear set up than just flashback scene.
Also, I really don't appreciate his guilt over breaking up with Nora. She's such an asshole - she had it coming, right?
And why did aussie god tell Kevin he was the most important man in the world?
I was hoping Kevin-Nora were a kind of Alpha-Omega, Jin and Yang, good v. evil, etc kind of couple. I still think Nora is the physical manifestation of Azrael or whoever, the Lens who zapped her family since they were being such pains at that moment in her life.
I have such mixed feelings all in all about this episode. Much as I loved seeing Ann Dowd again, it all left me rather cold, quite the opposite of the previous episode.