308 - The Book of Nora

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  • also, Eddie and Aggie from "The Hotel" ... 
  • WonderedObjectWonderedObject SAN Francisco, CA
    It hasn't even been a day and I miss this show already.
    Michelle
  • MichelleMichelle California
    @WonderedObject I know the feeling.  What will fill the void next Sunday night?

    I'm eagerly anticipating the live recording - I can't wait to hear the guys' thoughts!
  • FlashGordonFlashGordon Leeds, UK
    edited June 2017
    Loved it! In particular I found Mathew's goodbye to Nora one of the most personal & touching moments, but that hit home in certain areas for me.

    Nice use of the Dove = Holy Spirit/ love , Goat = Evil/Sin in the wedding scene.

    Also like that Lindelof committed to a satisfactory explanation for the series mystery. Final thought, I felt Kubrick's pacing and cinematography all over this season and loved ever minute of it.
    cdriveElisa
  • cdrivecdrive Houston, TX
    edited June 2017
    ^Yes on the dove ~ Holy Spirit, and goat symbolism.  Also the storm during the goat scene:  Thunder ~ God's majesty / God's voice.  

    Leviticus 16 dealing with the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) and Sin Offerings (this is how "scapegoat" was coined)

    21 He is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites—all their sins—and put them on the goat’s head. He shall send the goat away into the wilderness in the care of someone appointed for the task. 22 The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a remote place; and the man shall release it in the wilderness.
    image
    ElisaFlashGordon
  • mwspiakmwspiak Upstate NY
    I didn't not like this episode or this season, I enjoyed the ride but instead of sitting back today enjoying how amazing this show was I can't help but have 2 little quips with the show. Why fake us out with Laurie's suicide and why explain what happened to the departed. I'm not upset over either one and it doesn't ruin the show at all but I didn't love this episode the way I did the rest of the ones this season. It was a good ending just not as stellar as I expected.
    ElisaKela15
  • Michelle said:

    @WonderedObject I know the feeling.  What will fill the void next Sunday night?

    I'm eagerly anticipating the live recording - I can't wait to hear the guys' thoughts!

    fear the walking dead! 

    image
    hall1114MichelleKingKobraakidarwinfeeshyGraham
  • aberry89aberry89 California
    edited June 2017
    I still have a hard time getting over the fact that kevin tried to pretend like they had barley met - sending the audionce into a feeling that this was some sort of divergent timeline. That is just such a strange writing choice. 


    I still dont know about this finale though...I don't think it worked for me. My initial and gut reaction was emotional apathy, which i didn't know I even had for Nora and Kevin. The only time I cried during this entire finale was when Matt and Nora said goodbye - Eccleston just brings the tears out of me i guess. 

    The three year time jump this season separated me a bit from these characters making this season still great, but somewhat emotionally distance for me. The time jump in the finale put these charachters even farther away from my reach. The old makeup was fine, but ultimately distracting - I felt like I was watching charachters I did not know as well. 

    I also came to the realization that I loved these charachters as a group - kevin nora, john, matt, evie, jill, meg, laurie, with all their flaws and victories and sadness working and mixing together. When they were all fighting to stay sane, it was this human need to be a community - and I really loved that. I found i needed those other interactions, when it's just Nora and Kevin - all the electricity went out of the room. I think that is why this finale left me strangely apathetic to a show and charachters that has moved me, probably more than any other I have ever seen. But, I would still tell everyone i know to watch it. I am more of a journey over destination person anyway.
    ElisaJTKIIIpodcartfanKela15DanG
  • Vasilnate1Vasilnate1 Salem, MA
    DanG said:

    Laurie must really like seeing Kevin swinging in the wind.... Lives next door to the guy for decades... but, can't give him one little hint that Nora is really alive....



    And she dosnt realize that he goes to Australia every year for vacation?  "why do you keep going to Australia Kevin?"...Oh yeah, you go to visit your father in prison. ;-)
    voodooratElisaPavkey88
  • FreddyFreddy Denton, Texas
    edited June 2017
    I don't even want to know what kind of horrible shit Nora had to do to book passage across the ocean. Twice.

    Also, in "Earth 2%", do you think they started filming new episodes of Perfect Strangers with Gary Busey playing Larry Appleton?
    Vasilnate1kingbee67Knightowel99FlashGordonbizmarkiefaderbrewseveltPavkey88
  • Vasilnate1Vasilnate1 Salem, MA
    toncica said:

    Toadie said:

    In the podcast for episode 6, I'm pretty sure both @A_Ron_Hubbard and @Jim basically said that there was no way that she was still alive, and perhaps fool-hardy to think so (I hope I'm remembering that right.  If not, sorry to put that on you two!  I listen to several Leftovers casts).

    You don't have to be sorry. 

    At 20:53 into the podcast:

    A.Ron : I was surprised to see that there's a little bit of a debate on this. Do you think Laurie is in fact dead?
    Jim     : Jesus fucking Christ, yes!
    A.Ron : ..yes...ok
    Jim     : The whole goddamned point of this episode is to say that Laurie is fucking dead!
    A.Ron : hahahaha...yeah
    Jim     : Oh My God!  

    :D
    I always find it somewhat satisfying when Jim has to eat crow
    Knightowel99Elisa
  • mwspiak said:

    I didn't not like this episode or this season, I enjoyed the ride but instead of sitting back today enjoying how amazing this show was I can't help but have 2 little quips with the show. Why fake us out with Laurie's suicide and why explain what happened to the departed. I'm not upset over either one and it doesn't ruin the show at all but I didn't love this episode the way I did the rest of the ones this season. It was a good ending just not as stellar as I expected.

    Red the interviews that have been done (links have been posted in this thread). You'll see some answers to the questions you'll have.
    Knightowel99mwspiak
  • I love this show, but this season didn't really do it for me. It was good, great even, but I guess I wanted it to blow me away the way the first 2 seasons did. Either way, I'm in on whatever Damon does next
    Elisa
  • In case nobody else mentions it... that old man hair on old Kevin's nose was fucking incredible.  So much detail.
    Knightowel99aberry89
  • I'm struck most by how utterly optimistic the ending was.  I think the return to "Let the Mystery Be" in the opening credits was really symbolic, like how everybody's desperate, life-risking search for meaning throughout this season was ultimately resolved by everybody...chilling the fuck out.  You don't have to be the savior, Kevin, just be a good man.  Ditto for Kevin, Sr.  Matt can still have a meaningful life even fighting cancer, and Laurie doesn't have to kill herself, because...why do that, anyway?  Even Nora's journey wasn't about answering any questions, it was about just finding your place in the world and being content with it.  Apparently, the world also survived an errant nuclear missile without losing it's shit completely.  How's that for optimism in these uncertain times?  I was satisfied with this ending, if not season three entirely. 

    Elisa
  • Foe season 3, it seemed to me at least, that you had to do some homework to fully grasp each episode. Whether it be read an interview with Lindelhof or read a few bible scriptures. You shouldn't need to do research for a show to be enjoyable each week. While I think season 3 of the Leftovers was solid, it failed in comparison to season 2 in emotional depth and character development. I sorta wish season 2 was the finale season and Nora telling Kevin "You're Home" was the final scene.
    ThomasElisa
  • edited June 2017
    JTKIII said:

    Foe season 3, it seemed to me at least, that you had to do some homework to fully grasp each episode. Whether it be read an interview with Lindelhof or read a few bible scriptures. You shouldn't need to do research for a show to be enjoyable each week. While I think season 3 of the Leftovers was solid, it failed in comparison to season 2 in emotional depth and character development. I sorta wish season 2 was the finale season and Nora telling Kevin "You're Home" was the final scene.

    Interesting.  I think, after all is said and done and a sleepless night wrestling with the finale, season 3 is my favorite.  To me it just felt the most intimately tragic, and in the end, hopeful.  The rest of the outside world seemed to fall away in place of a laser focus on the few of our characters that were the most damaged.  In all honesty, though, each season brings something different for me that contributes to the whole.  It's all I can really ask for in a series, and it's just a Miracle (pun definitely intended) they pulled it all off.  Hell, I've seen lots of people put season 1 at the top.  I think it's awesome that the whole show was strong enough to have such varying opinions.
  • DoubleA_RonDoubleA_Ron San Diego
    edited June 2017
    Frustratingly beautiful.

    I wonder who untied the goat in the final scene....  Apparently, Nora did.
  • JohnnyCharismaJohnnyCharisma Australia
    edited June 2017
    Toadie said:

    Yeah so Laurie being alive was a fuck up. The rules of storytelling on her episode was that Laurie committed suicide.


    Due to this, I was thinking for a good portion of this episode that it could not have been taking place in the real world. Laurie was still alive, so therefore it couldn't be the real world.  Later it clicked on me that she just didn't commit suicide because it would have been too ridiculous for everything in this episode to not be taking place in the real world IMHO. It confused me and not in a good way this episode as I didn't know what was real and what wasn't.

    The writers did a flip but not sure I buy it. DL explains what happened here.

    Actually, the rules of storytelling allowed them the ability to chose either option; life or death.  It's only become ironclad because it became to the wider audience the only accepted path she would chose, ignoring elements of the final scene, i.e. the phone call and the warm smile she gives before going overboard.  Just because something is largely accepted as the truth doesn't make it so. That said, it did throw me for a bit, mostly because I bought into the accepted narrative myself.  Had they not had the ambiguity of the last scene of episode 6, however, I would have completely called nonsense.  If the last episode was indeed the real world, then Jill's phone call saved her because no other option then exists.  Anyways, it's clear its a divisive issue, I'm just glad they allowed for it in the narrative.   

    I see your point also, thanks.

    I was wondering, is there a difference between making something purposely ambiguous for the sake of story telling versus leaving something ambiguous so they can make a change later on?

    Or were they lucky that the show has a lot of ambiguity and things that can be taken several ways that it allowed them to make the change without being cheap? Ambiguity aside, it seems like the writers intention was that Laurie is dead, as per the DL IGN interview (Although admittingly I agree shows should stand on their feet without interview/podcast material from actors/writers/directors)

    I guess at the end of the day it worked differently for differently people, and for me as I thought she was dead I assumed the scenes with Nora and Kevin when they were older were taking place in the dream world/limbo/whatever you want to call it. This in turn confused me for a bit when I was trying to get my bearings on what was real and what wasn't.

    Fun fact: I initially interpreted that Laurie was alive at the end of her episode, which would have made the final episode less confusing, but it was Jim's comment on that episode's podcast and my subsequent reinterpretation of Laurie's episode that landed me on thinking Laurie is dead.
  • It was the perfect ending or me. You could fill in the blanks of this episode as a matt lib. Everyone takes a different view on how this story ends by their view on life. You could argue that Nora's story is true and there is an alternate earth . Or you could you view it that Nora is in an "hotel " setting and none of this true and just her subconscious in death. Or you can view that this is "heaven" and Kevin finally caught up with her when he died 20 years later. Essentially, this is a choose your own story... you pick the ending that fits for you. Beautiful!
  • MrXMrX CO
    edited June 2017
    Anyone else a Fringe fan? The Leftovers overall is (was :( ...) a better show, but after absorbing the finale a bit I'm getting very strong vibes similar to the best parts of Fringe - where the characters were dealing with loss and grief with the backdrop of multiple dimensions.

    I'm just gonna pretend that Walter Bishop was the inventor of the LADR machine and found his peace on Earth 2.
    hypergenesbKingKobraElisaDaveyMac
  • Garthgou81Garthgou81 Placerville, CA
    Maybe this has been mentioned elsewhere (who am I kidding, of course, it has) but is it weird to anyone else that the title of the machine was LADR, and this season had SO much symbolism involving ladders. What does it all mean?!
    MrXToadieElisa
  • edited June 2017
    @JohnnyCharisma  I think you and I both came from the same place on episode 6, into being convinced otherwise by @Jim and @A_Ron_Hubbard and the rest of the community, and then into being confused and slightly frustrated in episode 8 in regards to Laurie.  And you also make an interesting point about ambiguity and it's purpose as a point or as a fork in the road we aren't sure which to take.  In this case, I think I came to the conclusion that even if the intent was that Laurie was dead in episode 6, the hints they gave us feed into the larger narrative of uncertainty and chance encounters, i.e. the phone call.  Did Laurie go out on the water with the intent to kill herself?  I absolutely think she did, but I also think a phone call can save a life, much like Nora's phone call to Laurie gave her the permission to give Kevin a chance to explain.  Jill and Tommy turned a tragedy into an uneventful afternoon of scuba diving, just by being present, just by being there, showing Laurie that some of the people in her life are okay, and that maybe she could be too.    

    Regardless, I hope at the end of the day that it doesn't sour, for those that felt it cheap, an otherwise beautiful finale.  Ultimately, its interesting that Laurie choosing death was more satisfying for people than Laurie choosing life.  I guess its all in how we look at it, especially for those us that seemed to be in the minority lol. 


    brewsevelt
  • I don't really feel cheated by the Laurie thing. Laurie never said anything to make us think she was going to kill herself. We all put it in our heads when Nora told her story. Maybe the writers were trying to prove a point here. Don't jump to conclusions. Her goodbye to Kevin was more of her thinking he was going to die rather than she was.  

    I really like the idea that our world split into 2. I think there are some scientists out there that belief such an action can actually happen. Parallel universes interacting with each other. I feel satisfied with that answer. Although i do agree why would people not immediately move to better locations? If I was the 2% i would definitely be living in a mansion somewhere with a big ass farm and supply of everything i needed. I wouldnt be still living in my current house for sure. But that would be too confusing for TV. Nora would have to spend alot of dialogue explaining how she went to the house, they werent there, she had to look them up, found they moved into Jay Z's mansion, etc. Its just cleaner the way she explained it. 
    ToadieFlashGordon
  • It was a better finale than I could've ever made.

    I don't think Nora was lying because I don't see any textual evidence that points to that.

    I was surprised to get a partial answer on the departure - basically there are two parallel universes, or at least parallel Earths. In the one where only a small percent departed, the world descended into a lot of chaos and despair. In the one where the majority of humans departed, people consider themselves lucky to still be around. I thought that was an interesting commentary on perspective. It still wasn't a complete Lindle-lie since he didn't fully explain the mystery. We still don't know why it happened or how both worlds can exist simultaneously.

    My only disappointment was the Laurie fake-out. I don't think she needed to be in the episode. Otherwise it worked for me.

  • MichaelVCassidyMichaelVCassidy Harrisburg, Pa
    This is amazing. I hope you guys have time to read and talk about it. Such great info
    http://www.vulture.com/2017/06/leftovers-finale-behind-the-scenes-exclusive.html
    Kela15
  • Garthgou81Garthgou81 Placerville, CA
    I have nothing to offer that hasn't already been said. But I will chirp in on the Laurie thing. So in the previous episode, I was concerned that Laurie would show up in Kevin's dreamland and that would blunt the impact of what most of us perceived to be her suicide. In the language film, "Certified" led us to believe she killed herself. People had some great arguments why it was out of her character to do that, but we are all pretty astute TV watchers and with the language of not just TV but also with the bleak nature of The Leftovers, there was little doubt that she went to her death.

    So seeing her pop up in the finale definitely threw me for a loop. I initially was not a huge fan for the reason I mentioned above. It deadens the impact of what we saw before. However...after reading thoughts here, I find that it does something pretty sneaky and awesome for a bleak show like this one. It retroactively changes how we view that conversation with Jill & Tommy. And it makes the series one of hope and speaks to the main mission statement of the finale. Specifically that by connecting with loved ones, we can survive whatever mental illness, grief, or trauma we experience. Just as Kevin and Nora are given a second chance at happiness by connecting in the final minutes of the finale, we also learn that the phone call with Tommy & Jill most likely saved Laurie's life. 

    Anyway, all this stuff has been pointed out elsewhere and much more succinctly, but I find that aspect of the finale incredibly beautiful. I can totally see how people feel like they got emotionally judo flipped with the Laurie reveal. But it will be interesting to see how folks feel about this on a rewatch. The scuba scene has been entirely recontextualized, and that is pretty damn impressive if you ask me. 

    The only thing that really didn't work for me is the piece with Kevin pretending to have no knowledge. It seems that it was done for the writers to confuse and disorient the audience. There was really no reason for Kevin to have done that, and it seems just slightly manipulative when the story and character had no reason for that. 
    Toadievoodooratghm3ElisaJTKIIIKingKobraDaveyMacaki
  • JohnnyCharismaJohnnyCharisma Australia
    edited June 2017
    Hatorian I like that idea. There would be some I am Legend type shit of people playing golf on fighter jets for sure.

    Ladystark Good observations. I totally think they were meant to go meta on us, and I love the idea of how the story we as viewers are telling ourselves about the Leftovers story is mirroring the process of the stories the characters are telling themselves.

    kingbee67 my enjoyment of the episode increased since I last watched it, however I've only watched it once. I want to watch the whole series again to see how everything gels together now.

    Maybe the conclusion I will come to is it doesn't matter what is true, and what's most important is a character's choice to believe in something/communicate something, whether that something is true in fact or not. There are also further distinctions you can drill down to, eg:- is Nora lying, or does she honestly think that she experienced something, and on top of that, is her belief and what it gives her more important than the experience being a fact.

    Reminds me of psychology principles, and how if you believe something, even though it may not be true, it can still help you sometimes. Like religion?
  • NikkiP said:


    I was surprised to get a partial answer on the departure - basically there are two parallel universes, or at least parallel Earths. In the one where only a small percent departed, the world descended into a lot of chaos and despair. In the one where the majority of humans departed, people consider themselves lucky to still be around. I thought that was an interesting commentary on perspective.


    I don't think that's what was being said. Nora spoke of her family. In this world many people didn't lose family members or their closest friends. Nora was one of the unluckiest to lose her whole family, the odds are very small. In the other world almost everybody lost the whole family and their close friends. It's a world of orphans and people who lost everyone. Except Nora's family, they were the lucky ones there. 
  • @toncica, in the link Michael shared above, this is one of the alternate endings:

    4. “Nora comes through and there is an elderly couple. [They tell her] ‘Here is the deal, you can’t tell anyone that you came from a place where only 2% of the world population disappeared. It will destabilize the harmony. It was rough for a couple of years. Everyone lost everyone, but we have formed new families and new connections … And if we understand from the 84 people that came before you that world is a fucking mess.’”

    So although that scene didn't survive, in the writer's minds people in the other world are coping better and that concept came through pretty clearly (to me) in Nora's story. You can choose not to interpret it that way if you want though. *shrug* To each their own.
    MichaelVCassidyKingKobra
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