US Politics Thread 2.0

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  • anubus21 said:
    Right...so Trump supporters have spent the day frantically searching for some kook to say something like this to say "see, told ya!" while ignoring that there's nothing to this, no movement, no momentum, no nothing.  Stop with the nonsense.
  • DeeDee Adelaide
    edited August 17
    MOD NOTE: Right, this might be a good time to remind everyone that personal attacks are not acceptable here. This particular discussion is getting more and more heated and I've seen a couple of remarks that sail close to the wind.

    Argue your politics, beliefs, facts, etc, but do not attack each other. As we say in 'Straya, play the ball, not the man.
    CretanBullakritenbrinkBrawnApril_May_JuneKingKobraTaraC73adobo1148DaveyMac
  • akritenbrinkakritenbrink Lynnwood, WA (Seattle area)

    LordBy said:

    On a lighter note: Sean Spicer has to be the most grateful person to have been fired right now. Well maybe tied with Reince Priebus. I can picture them doing celebratory shots together while watching CNN at a bar last night.

    I thought Spicer quit because he wasn't offered the Communications Director position permanently, but was asked to stay on as Press Sercretary and didn't want to work for The Mooch.
    Spicer was an ally of Reince Priebus and didn't want to report to The Mooch (everyone knew that Priebus' days were numbered).
    Spicer would have reported to the Mooch regardless of who the chief of staff was. 

    Anyway, here's hoping for a Spicer book.
  • LordBy said:

    On a lighter note: Sean Spicer has to be the most grateful person to have been fired right now. Well maybe tied with Reince Priebus. I can picture them doing celebratory shots together while watching CNN at a bar last night.

    I thought Spicer quit because he wasn't offered the Communications Director position permanently, but was asked to stay on as Press Sercretary and didn't want to work for The Mooch.
    Spicer was an ally of Reince Priebus and didn't want to report to The Mooch (everyone knew that Priebus' days were numbered).
    Spicer would have reported to the Mooch regardless of who the chief of staff was. 

    Anyway, here's hoping for a Spicer book.
    Right, but (apparently) he/they realized that Priebus was on his way out and Spicer was loyal to him.  He didn't want to report to The Mooch for a week, then quit when Priebus was fired, so he just left when the Mooch was hired knowing that Priebus would follow behind him soon.
  • akritenbrinkakritenbrink Lynnwood, WA (Seattle area)
    There are definitely people on the left who say and do ridiculous things, and they shouldn't be celebrated any more than anyone on the right. 

    But that's not what happened this weekend in Charlottesville. No one on the left showed up with burning torches in a callback to the KKK. No one on the left drove her car into a crowd of protesters with the intent to injure or kill. Trump supporters can argue minor points all they want, but it's difficult at this point to deny that he's closely aligning himself with white supremacists and stirring up that crowd to the point of violence and terrorist acts. To be perfectly honest, and I don't mean this as a personal attack but a political statement, if someone is a Trump supporter at this point I want to ask them specifically where they stand on white supremacy.

    Regardless of the legislative successes or failures of the GOP during the Trump administration, we watched him use this racial stuff to gain votes, and people have now been injured and died because of what Trump has stirred up in people. He's not a fringe political leader. He's the President. There's a young woman who will never be able to live out the rest of her life because a young man was so angry that she held a different belief that he had to kill. Who knows how many more were permanently injured. And that's not American to me. We're supposed to be this shining city on a hill, ruled by the rule of law and so forth, but we're not, and it's getting worse. 
    CretanBullAlkaid13April_May_JunecdriveDaveyMac
  • emnofseattleemnofseattle Mason County, Washington USA

    There are definitely people on the left who say and do ridiculous things, and they shouldn't be celebrated any more than anyone on the right. 


    But that's not what happened this weekend in Charlottesville. No one on the left showed up with burning torches in a callback to the KKK. No one on the left drove her car into a crowd of protesters with the intent to injure or kill. Trump supporters can argue minor points all they want, but it's difficult at this point to deny that he's closely aligning himself with white supremacists and stirring up that crowd to the point of violence and terrorist acts. To be perfectly honest, and I don't mean this as a personal attack but a political statement, if someone is a Trump supporter at this point I want to ask them specifically where they stand on white supremacy.

    Regardless of the legislative successes or failures of the GOP during the Trump administration, we watched him use this racial stuff to gain votes, and people have now been injured and died because of what Trump has stirred up in people. He's not a fringe political leader. He's the President. There's a young woman who will never be able to live out the rest of her life because a young man was so angry that she held a different belief that he had to kill. Who knows how many more were permanently injured. And that's not American to me. We're supposed to be this shining city on a hill, ruled by the rule of law and so forth, but we're not, and it's getting worse. 
    White supremacy is not compatible with libertarian thought on the idea of self ownership and equality, therefore I detest it. Good thing they have no political power.

    Blaming Trump for this is intellectually dishonest at the least. These people have been around for a long time and used to be far more powerful, the Klan actually controlled legislatures in several states (like Oregon) in the early 20th century. Today they have no real political power.

    What happened to Ms Heyer was a tragedy, but it's morally no different then what happened to Chris Krime in Seattle years ago, and that didn't cause near the national outrage and it was a riot sanctioned by the city government where they watched him be beat to death and did nothing about it. And the man convicted for his murder served less then ten years, which I guarantee is going to be far less then what fields gets
    BrawnJovial_FalconAll the Chickens
  • akritenbrinkakritenbrink Lynnwood, WA (Seattle area)
    @emnofseattle you don't see Trump as being linked to white supremacists?
  • emnofseattleemnofseattle Mason County, Washington USA

    @emnofseattle you don't see Trump as being linked to white supremacists?

    I see white supremacists linking themselves to Trump, I see Trump making blunders in communication as is his standard vice
  • DeeDee Adelaide
    @emnofseattle If a tiki torch company can make it abundantly clear they are not and do not wish to be associated with white supremacy and neo-Nazism, do you not think the most powerful person in the country should be able to do the same?
    CretanBullTaraC73April_May_JuneDaveyMac
  • akritenbrinkakritenbrink Lynnwood, WA (Seattle area)

    @emnofseattle you don't see Trump as being linked to white supremacists?

    I see white supremacists linking themselves to Trump, I see Trump making blunders in communication as is his standard vice
    Hmm.. to me the link is clearly established and I've been seeing it for a long time.
  • cdrivecdrive Houston, TX
    So classless for him to spend half his monologue vigorously sucking his own dick. Nazis, actual fucking Nazis, marched and killed a person and this fucker got cameras on him in front of his golden elevator doors and started blowing himself.
    CretanBullakritenbrink
  • emnofseattleemnofseattle Mason County, Washington USA
    Dee said:

    @emnofseattle If a tiki torch company can make it abundantly clear they are not and do not wish to be associated with white supremacy and neo-Nazism, do you not think the most powerful person in the country should be able to do the same?

    He did in fact make that clear on Monday.

    The thing your confusing is condemnation of the actual violence being the same as condoning viewpoints. Those are separate issues.

    There were leftists and anarchists who showed up armed and ready to cause trouble. There were multiple arrests and injuries not related to the car strike.

    if we have a riot break out where both parties are responsible there is nothing wrong with holding the opinion both parties deserve blame, that's separate from the issue of who is right in terms of morality of the view points.
    Brawn
  • DeeDee Adelaide
    @emnofseattle You are seeing what you choose to see.
    akritenbrinkFrakkin TCretanBullTaraC73UnderwoodApril_May_June
  • Frakkin TFrakkin T Currently Offline
    edited August 17
    @emnofseattle I don't often break in here but I'd like to request some receipts on these "multiple arrests and injuries" caused by leftists and/or anarchists, preferably from somewhere that's not a right-wing propaganda site. 
    akritenbrinkTaraC73April_May_June
  • emnofseattleemnofseattle Mason County, Washington USA

    @emnofseattle you don't see Trump as being linked to white supremacists?

    I see white supremacists linking themselves to Trump, I see Trump making blunders in communication as is his standard vice
    Hmm.. to me the link is clearly established and I've been seeing it for a long time.
    I don't wish to criticize you specifically, but this is a common refrain I've heard my whole life. In this case it's true, some actual racists were involved in a rally, but this is the thing I've heard all my life where racism is just a buzz word for anyone who opposes democrats.

    Case in point, the unrelated first amendment rally in Seattle the next day where the conservative group actually allowed counter protestors to them to come speak on their stage with their equipment, they were not white supremacists, a Seattle City Councilman showed up with a group of people who were armed with maces and when the cops wouldn't let them get to the main rally he flipped his shit on the police chief, then the County Executove declared the group white supremacists (joey Gibson, the leader of patriot prayer says he plans to sue the King County executive for slander over this) so the reality is, this is a standard issue response amongst some people on the left side of the spectrum

    And the fact is, there have been violent disruptions and even an attempted assasination of a republican congressman, so maybe this isn't limited to being anti nazi
    Brawn
  • @emnofseattle you don't see Trump as being linked to white supremacists?

    I see white supremacists linking themselves to Trump, I see Trump making blunders in communication as is his standard vice
    Hmm.. to me the link is clearly established and I've been seeing it for a long time.
    I don't wish to criticize you specifically, but this is a common refrain I've heard my whole life. In this case it's true, some actual racists were involved in a rally, but this is the thing I've heard all my life where racism is just a buzz word for anyone who opposes democrats.



    Just "some actual racists"?  It was a racist event!  That's not my opinion, it's what the participants themselves referred to it as.  This "unite the right' thing wasn't about bringing together all of the voices on the right (those people carrying tiki torches chanting about Jews weren't run of the mill conservatives) it was about taking members from the alt-right, KKK, white nationalist, white supremacist etc groups who only knew each other online and gathering together to meet in person...it was a "getting to know your fellow hate-monger" Woodstock!

    As for the tired refrain about racism being used to silence anyone disagrees with democrats, let me throw it back at you...that line is used by conservatives just as often to refuse to look at the reality of racism.


  • Trump was the head birther in chief, likes to blame out groups like immigrants and Muslims for the problems facing the country and trips all over himself trying to disavow the Neo-Nazis while not pissing off his white base. I'd say the shoe fits, he knows who his core audience is.
    CretanBull
  • akritenbrinkakritenbrink Lynnwood, WA (Seattle area)

    @emnofseattle you don't see Trump as being linked to white supremacists?

    I see white supremacists linking themselves to Trump, I see Trump making blunders in communication as is his standard vice
    Hmm.. to me the link is clearly established and I've been seeing it for a long time.
    I don't wish to criticize you specifically, but this is a common refrain I've heard my whole life. In this case it's true, some actual racists were involved in a rally, but this is the thing I've heard all my life where racism is just a buzz word for anyone who opposes democrats.

    Case in point, the unrelated first amendment rally in Seattle the next day where the conservative group actually allowed counter protestors to them to come speak on their stage with their equipment, they were not white supremacists, a Seattle City Councilman showed up with a group of people who were armed with maces and when the cops wouldn't let them get to the main rally he flipped his shit on the police chief, then the County Executove declared the group white supremacists (joey Gibson, the leader of patriot prayer says he plans to sue the King County executive for slander over this) so the reality is, this is a standard issue response amongst some people on the left side of the spectrum

    And the fact is, there have been violent disruptions and even an attempted assasination of a republican congressman, so maybe this isn't limited to being anti nazi
    I'm not sure why you are responding to my remarks with vague remarks about what you have been hearing about your whole life and things that happened in a totally separate event. Try again.
    CretanBull
  • emnofseattleemnofseattle Mason County, Washington USA
    edited August 17

    @emnofseattle you don't see Trump as being linked to white supremacists?

    I see white supremacists linking themselves to Trump, I see Trump making blunders in communication as is his standard vice
    Hmm.. to me the link is clearly established and I've been seeing it for a long time.
    I don't wish to criticize you specifically, but this is a common refrain I've heard my whole life. In this case it's true, some actual racists were involved in a rally, but this is the thing I've heard all my life where racism is just a buzz word for anyone who opposes democrats.



    Just "some actual racists"?  It was a racist event!  That's not my opinion, it's what the participants themselves referred to it as.  This "unite the right' thing wasn't about bringing together all of the voices on the right (those people carrying tiki torches chanting about Jews weren't run of the mill conservatives) it was about taking members from the alt-right, KKK, white nationalist, white supremacist etc groups who only knew each other online and gathering together to meet in person...it was a "getting to know your fellow hate-monger" Woodstock!

    As for the tired refrain about racism being used to silence anyone disagrees with democrats, let me throw it back at you...that line is used by conservatives just as often to refuse to look at the reality of racism.


    Of course it was, nobody denies that. This was a rally by the white nationalists or whatever they're calling themselves now.

    No, it's not used to deny the realities of racism, It's used to counter the idea that it's racist to oppose forcible restribution of wealth by the government to solve a problem, because I don't think there's a single issue your average liberal won't say should be solved by new taxes, new regulations, and a massive intervention by the government.

    Freddie Gray and Vicki Weaver have something in common, both would be alive if it weren't for left wing laws permitting the initiation of state violence lacking a victim. I don't deny any realities of racism, other then maybe I deny the idea that racism is a force so strong you can't succeeed in this country, but regardless I reject the solution of more government and instead advocate the use of the principle of self ownership and the non aggression principle as the solution. All of the problems of the last century, denial of civil rights, segregation (btw the BBCs explanation of the true purpose of segregation, which was to stop the populists from uniting freedmen with white sharecroppers to form a voting bloc, look up the episode about the populists in "in our time") redlining, etc were acts of the state. Since the state created the problem I reject the notion they're the solution
  • emnofseattleemnofseattle Mason County, Washington USA

    @emnofseattle you don't see Trump as being linked to white supremacists?

    I see white supremacists linking themselves to Trump, I see Trump making blunders in communication as is his standard vice
    Hmm.. to me the link is clearly established and I've been seeing it for a long time.
    I don't wish to criticize you specifically, but this is a common refrain I've heard my whole life. In this case it's true, some actual racists were involved in a rally, but this is the thing I've heard all my life where racism is just a buzz word for anyone who opposes democrats.

    Case in point, the unrelated first amendment rally in Seattle the next day where the conservative group actually allowed counter protestors to them to come speak on their stage with their equipment, they were not white supremacists, a Seattle City Councilman showed up with a group of people who were armed with maces and when the cops wouldn't let them get to the main rally he flipped his shit on the police chief, then the County Executove declared the group white supremacists (joey Gibson, the leader of patriot prayer says he plans to sue the King County executive for slander over this) so the reality is, this is a standard issue response amongst some people on the left side of the spectrum

    And the fact is, there have been violent disruptions and even an attempted assasination of a republican congressman, so maybe this isn't limited to being anti nazi
    I'm not sure why you are responding to my remarks with vague remarks about what you have been hearing about your whole life and things that happened in a totally separate event. Try again.
    Ok you're asserting there's a solid link between Trump and white nationalists, when Trump has not accepted the help of white nationalists, has denounced racial bigotry publically on four occasions that I can recall on the top of my head, his victory speech on election night, his inauguration speech, his address to congress after inauguration, and now on Monday. His platform from the start including policies to improve employment opportunities in minority cities which was on his campaign website from the start, and has advocated for policies increasing options in education for students in low income neighborhoods stuck in failing schools.

    Which has all been public and sustained over the past two years at least, so I do not see the same link you do. I see a bungled press conference and a self promoted (David duke) who's name I don't remember hearing before this thing went down
    Brawn
  • Of course it was, nobody denies that. This was a rally by the white nationalists or whatever they're calling themselves now.

    A big part of the problem is that the President does.  More specifically, he doesn't outright deny it but rather tries to lighten it's impact by insisting that it was something more than a white power thing and further dilutes the situation by shifting focus away from that fact by pretending that there's some sort of balance of responsibility between fascists and anti-fascists.  I'm not even going to debate this point further, world opinion - including Fox News and dozens of prominent GOP figures agree.

    No, it's not used to deny the realities of racism....

    Sure it is, all the time. It's reactionary....the second someone calls something racist, "no it's not, you're just trying to silence us" comes flying right back.  I'm not even debating your original point, I'm just adding that as often as accusations of racism are used to stifle discussion, the "it's not racist, you're just trying to shut down discussion" retort is used to deny racism.  I'm like Trump here, there's guilt on both sides.

    ...

    Your other points are rabbit holes that I'm not going to chase you down, I already know they don't lead anywhere.



    ColdRolled7
  • I guess the problem I have with the "statues teach history" argument is that I've literally never seen a statue of Adolf Hitler and yet I am very well versed on the horrors of the Holocost.
    voodooratTaraC73CretanBulladobo1148DaveyMac
  • statues memorialize and venerate personalities.  if you want to learn history in a visceral way visit a battleground memorial site and look at the scenery on which thousands of young men died pointlessly.
    Frakkin TCretanBullVasilnate1DaveyMac
  • anubus21 said:
    Right...so Trump supporters have spent the day frantically searching for some kook to say something like this to say "see, told ya!" while ignoring that there's nothing to this, no movement, no momentum, no nothing.  Stop with the nonsense.
    I didn't post it to say there is a movement, or momentum, just that there are some in this country who want, and are calling for, the removal of statues of George Washington, Andrew Jackson, etc just because they were slave holders. I think it was you who, honestly can't remember so sorry if it wasn't, who said these men were a product of their era which someone should explain to the pastor in this article.

    It only takes a couple of people to make noise and soon a lot more can join in...btw I am not a Trump supporter. Didn't vote because I don't like him or Hillary. Would have voted for Marco Rubio if he had been the Republican candidate, or Bernie if it had been him vs Trump.
  • Alkaid13Alkaid13 Georgia
    edited August 17
    Bernie and Marco Rubio have some pretty distinctly different ideas though. I'm genuinely curious what the overlap is.
  • Not so much that there is overlap. Bernie, imo, would have been better than Trump or Hillary so I would have voted for him since I don't loathe him like I do the other two. If Rubio had been the Republican candidate I would have voted for him full stop against anyone else.
  • TaraC73TaraC73 Manchester NH
    I don't like to engage @emnofseattle but you said "some were actual racists" ... um, this was a neo-nazi/KKK rally - anyone who was not an "actual racist" wouldn't be there!!!! Holy hell man. This was a straight up FUCKING RACIST EVENT!!!!!!

    While yes, trump isn't the best at getting his thoughts out (as evidenced by his unhinged tweets and in-person speaking he says the completely wrong thing when *sometimes* I think he does actually mean to say something different) his true feelings were shown when he did not immediately, that night or next morning after that car slammed into the crowd, say in a presser "the American people will not stand by and allow the KKK, Neo Nazis and other racist hate groups to terrorize our citizens" ... instead he goes on and on talking about "violence on both sides" and there were some "bad peoples on one side and really had people on another side"

    I agree that nobody should just be toppling over statues of Robert e lee or any other hateful figurehead... go through the proper channels to get that shit taken down. BUT comparing statue topplers to fucking nazis and kkk members and a dude who SLAMMED HIS FUCKING CAR INTO A CROWD TO SHUT UP THR ANTI-KKK PROTESTORS is VERY fucking telling.

    Donald trump is a racist. He is a white supremacist. He is a fucking Nazi. The vast, vast majority of his cabinet and associates are as well. I am downright ashamed of our White House, I am pissed at every single person who cast a vote for him and I am especially sad for the state of our country. We are reverting back to segregation era thinking and it is fucking scary.

    *this completes my pre-coffee rant. Please excuse any typos :p
    CretanBullFrakkin TDee
  • @emnofseattle you don't see Trump as being linked to white supremacists?

    I see white supremacists linking themselves to Trump, I see Trump making blunders in communication as is his standard vice
    Hmm.. to me the link is clearly established and I've been seeing it for a long time.
    I don't wish to criticize you specifically, but this is a common refrain I've heard my whole life. In this case it's true, some actual racists were involved in a rally, but this is the thing I've heard all my life where racism is just a buzz word for anyone who opposes democrats.

    Case in point, the unrelated first amendment rally in Seattle the next day where the conservative group actually allowed counter protestors to them to come speak on their stage with their equipment, they were not white supremacists, a Seattle City Councilman showed up with a group of people who were armed with maces and when the cops wouldn't let them get to the main rally he flipped his shit on the police chief, then the County Executove declared the group white supremacists (joey Gibson, the leader of patriot prayer says he plans to sue the King County executive for slander over this) so the reality is, this is a standard issue response amongst some people on the left side of the spectrum

    And the fact is, there have been violent disruptions and even an attempted assasination of a republican congressman, so maybe this isn't limited to being anti nazi
    I'm not sure why you are responding to my remarks with vague remarks about what you have been hearing about your whole life and things that happened in a totally separate event. Try again.
    Ok you're asserting there's a solid link between Trump and white nationalists, when Trump has not accepted the help of white nationalists, has denounced racial bigotry publically on four occasions that I can recall on the top of my head, his victory speech on election night, his inauguration speech, his address to congress after inauguration, and now on Monday. His platform from the start including policies to improve employment opportunities in minority cities which was on his campaign website from the start, and has advocated for policies increasing options in education for students in low income neighborhoods stuck in failing schools.

    Which has all been public and sustained over the past two years at least, so I do not see the same link you do. I see a bungled press conference and a self promoted (David duke) who's name I don't remember hearing before this thing went down
    I don't know why I'm even trying with you at this point but you really aren't bothered by the fact that anytime Trump condemns white supremacist he's reading a carefully worded speech crafted by advisors but anytime he goes off the cuff and says what he really feels he ends up putting his foot in his mouth? You really think if you had Trump alone in a room and asked if whites were indeed supreme he wouldn't say yes?

    You didn't notice how uncomfortable he looked Monday when he condemned them but how much more comfortable he looked on Tuesday when he said there were very fine people at the white supremacist rally? Someone (forgot who)said it perfect when they said it looked like Trump was reading a hostage letter on Monday with a gun to his head. At this point I truly don't know how you can argue Trump isn't a racist. He's shown signs his entire life such as not renting to African Americans etc.

    If conservative truly want their agenda passed why do you still support this guy I just don't get it. You'd get so much more of what you want if you had ANY other republican. As I liberal I don't want Trimp replaced until the election because he is actually making it harder for GOP to get anything done.
    TaraC73CretanBull
  • TaraC73TaraC73 Manchester NH


    Trump ......... denounced racial bigotry publically on four occasions that I can recall on the top of my head, his victory speech on election night, his inauguration speech, his address to congress after inauguration, and now on Monday.


    (I hope I got the quote thing right...)

    You see though, he didn't denounce jack shit until people got all up in arms and his people had to tell him "you should denounce racial bigotry publicly"... it should NOT take social media shaming and urging (and probably script writing which he tends to ignore anyway) to get the president of the United States to say in no uncertain terms "I do not stand with the kkk and neo nazis"... it would be goddamn second nature for me to say that. And I am downright shitty with putting my thoughts into words (if there's anything I ever so slightly sympathize with trump on is like I said previously,I do think every now and then he is misinterpreted because he can't put his thoughts into words on the fly) ANY DECENT HUMAN BEING would have no problem denouncing that bullshit. But not trump.

    ... and don't get me started on his making that poor girls death all about him.

    Fuck you trump. And all of your supporters too.
    CretanBull
This discussion has been closed.