U.S. Politics the Third

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  • CretanBullCretanBull Toronto
    edited October 4

    Flukes said:

    Flukes said:


    In addition you keep citing this "70 percent of NRA members poll" we don't need to look at polls, this issue has been on the ballot in three states, failed in one, barely passed in another, and passed with 59% in another. So actually when comparing your poll with actual election results, You can only square that circle by arguing that the General voting public supports gun control less then the membership of the NRA.

    Maybe it has to do with the NRA presenting the issue as a slippery slope where any restrictions will eventually lead to disarming the public? I don't claim to know and it may not be true for every individual, but it seems to me the campaigning leading up to such a vote may have an effect on the outcome. Perhaps these tactics might even scare people into voting against measures they would otherwise accept?
    When it comes to ballot initiatives, the NRA usually (or at least often) supports and/or threatens to attack both parties so citizens can get these issues put on the ballot but have no one to raise awareness, explain or champion them.

    Fascinating. So they're actually banking on ignorance.
    Except he has nothing to back that up. In all three states (Maine, Nevada, WA) the organizers of the ballot initiatives had a huge funding advantage over the anti side. The use of ballot initiatives was specifically a tactic used by left wing activists to bypass legislatures. The idea the ballot campaigns have been false flags by the NRA is invented from whole cloth



    I'm not referring to those cased (I've never looked into them), I'm referring to a tactic used by the NRA (and others, to less effect) time and time again.

    The idea the ballot campaigns have been false flags by the NRA is invented from whole cloth

    I said nothing of the sort.

    So what exactly do you mean?

    You said

    "When it comes to ballot initiatives, the NRA usually (or at least often) supports and/or threatens to attack both parties so citizens can get these issues put on the ballot but have no one to raise awareness, explain or champion them."



    I'm at work so limited time to reply...

    I'm saying that often when private citizens do the work to get an initiative on the ballot that the opposition to that initiative either funds or threatens both parties leaving the initiative without a candidate in either party to promote it.  It has nothing to do with the NRA (or anyone else) setting up false flags, it has to do with lobbies & donors influencing both sides through  legal bribery.

  • akritenbrinkakritenbrink Lynnwood, WA (Seattle area)
    Blah blah blah, talk talk talk, and people still keep getting killed by the dozen. I'm not even sure why people keep hashing this out in forums. It doesn't add anything when people keep rehashing the same points over and over all over the internet. I'm not pointing at anyone in particular, just making a general statement about these conversations that are happening all over the place. 

    The NYT Daily podcast has an episode today (10/4/17) about guns and mass shootings that I found interesting. "We look at how the National Rifle Association became a powerful lobbying group. Also, a gun store owner talks about putting military-style weapons into the hands of civilians." 
    JaimieTGredalBeeDaveyMac
  • edited October 4
    @akritenbrink Yeah, I don't know what you guys thought you were doing.  There's three US politics threads, all have 30+ pages, with 30 posts per page.  That's about 3K worth of posts of back and forth bullshit.

    I remember there was a shooting or something and @emnofseattle started quoting Fundementals of Modern Police Impact Weapons from his "personal collection".  I know rule #1 is don't be a dick, but let that sink in for a second.  Who the fuck is quoting from that book and what do you think is going to be accomplished by discussing politics with said person?

    Hate to break it to you, but I'm pretty sure rightfully or wrongfully his mind is made up on specific issues, guys.  Game over man! Nobody is winning or changing anything by dragging this out.  STAHHPPP!
    TaraC73Flukes
  • DeeDee Adelaide
    MOD NOTE: Arguing with @emnofseattle is not my favourite thing either, but he has as much right to put his opinions forward as anyone else. And others are free to engage or not as they see fit. However, this lowkey shading of people we don't agree with (and I have been guilty of this here too, so I'm not singling out any one person), IS kind of dickish and needs to stop. If you don't want to talk to someone, just don't. There is plenty more to read here.

    As for whether it's useful having a politics thread at all, people will always want to talk politics. Someone started the very first thread and it's clearly something people want to discuss so here we are. But again, everyone is free to read it or not.
    JaimieTGredalBeeCretanBullDaveyMacTaraC73Brawn
  • ThomasThomas North Carolina
    Hatorian said:

    Hatorian said:

    Thomas said:


    Skipped most of the last 15 comments.  But no, my response was not directed at you.  But we have had far more firearms for a far longer time than Australia did.  Not to mention we have Mexico, a huge gun running country that brings illegal weapons in. Australia is on an island.  It is almost as flawed of an argument as when right wingers say they need AR's to defend themselves for when the government tries to take them over.



    Umm. Doesn't Mexico get its guns from the US? think you may need to research that a bit more mate. So actually your argument is the flawed one. 






    Do you think guns disappear over time?  If there are 20,000 illegal weapons in Mexico (there are far more than that) then they won't be disappearing after 10 uses until the next shipment comes.  You are also expecting every American to turn their guns in, which they won't do because some have put thousands upon thousands of dollars towards those weapons.  

    It is a pointless argument, it is not applicable.  Please tell me how an island of 24 million compares to a land locked country of over over 370 million?

    The simple answer is you CANT prevent shootings like this, but you can reduce the chances they might occur by making it a lot harder to get a gun.  Making bump stocks, bigger magazines, mag release locks, etc illegal is pointless because if someone wants to shoot a place up all they have to do is remove it or swap out parts.


    GredalBee said:

    @akritenbrink Yeah, I don't know what you guys thought you were doing.  There's three US politics threads, all have 30+ pages, with 30 posts per page.  That's about 3K worth of posts of back and forth bullshit.

    I remember there was a shooting or something and @emnofseattle started quoting Fundementals of Modern Police Impact Weapons from his "personal collection".  I know rule #1 is don't be a dick, but let that sink in for a second.  Who the fuck is quoting from that book and what do you think is going to be accomplished by discussing politics with said person?

    Hate to break it to you, but I'm pretty sure rightfully or wrongfully his mind is made up on specific issues, guys.  Game over man! Nobody is winning or changing anything by dragging this out.  STAHHPPP!

    I used to think climate change was a hoax for about 10 straight years.  Then on a social media page a bunch of educated people made me look like an idiot.  I started to do research on my own, reading dozens of journal articles and books, because I hated being embarrassed.  Now I am fully aware climate change is real and I ended up studying it heavily in graduate school.  So saying arguing on the internet about politics stuff is pointless is just wrong.  Most people won't change their minds, yes, but plenty do.
    jazzminawa
  • akritenbrinkakritenbrink Lynnwood, WA (Seattle area)
    The political threads started up last fall during the election when everyone was going bananas. I honestly think they were started more to commiserate about the state of things than anything. This forum is small and has a tight knit group and I think at first we were all just like "ugh, wow what a state we are in with politics right now." I could be wrong but the initial tone of it didn't seem to be meant to be a place for political arguments or changing people's minds. 

    That having been said, I do think it's possible to change minds on the internet for sure, and sometimes it's just good to have a place to sit and think through and write out your opinions, for whatever reason. I think that's what people are doing a lot when they comment on forums. I was just talking about gun control. With gun control (and abortion as well) whatever is discussed never seems to change anyone's mind. Then people start getting in these little disagreements with each other that are more based on their history together on this board than the current topic at hand. 

    I can't speak for anyone else but my comments weren't really a critique of anyone on this board, just a sort of lament of the times and the discussion going on in social media in general. I see so many well meaning people discussing this yet somehow, things never change and these mass killings get worse and worse. I bet you anything if we ever find out why this Las Vegas guy did what he did, it will be some senseless thing like he had decided it was time for him to commit suicide and he just wanted to see what it was like to kill a bunch of people. 
    Aww_PHuuCkCretanBullDaveyMac
  • I thought this was interesting, and thought that I'd share because we have at least two members here from the Seattle area(-ish!).

    We Snuck into Seattle's Super Secret White Nationalist Convention

    http://www.thestranger.com/news/2017/10/04/25451102/we-snuck-into-seattles-super-secret-white-nationalist-convention

  • Did you all see the protester at the Equifax senate hearing dressed up as the Monopoly guy??! So funny, and it made such a good point.
    I think those guys from Equifax are horrible people, and should go to prison.
    CretanBullThomasFlukes
  • That guy is hilarious!
    April_May_June
  • I think the person protesting is amazing! :)
    Mainly because while I kind of sort of understood what had happened with Equifax, I only watched the hearing after I saw pictures from it, and had to see it for myself. I ended up watching most of the hearing and becoming much more informed on the whole situation.
    So good on the protester for not only protesting a horrible act by a horrible company, but doing it in a way that gets people to watch and get informed on the situation they're protesting!
    CretanBull
  • akritenbrinkakritenbrink Lynnwood, WA (Seattle area)
    edited October 5

    I thought this was interesting, and thought that I'd share because we have at least two members here from the Seattle area(-ish!).

    We Snuck into Seattle's Super Secret White Nationalist Convention

    http://www.thestranger.com/news/2017/10/04/25451102/we-snuck-into-seattles-super-secret-white-nationalist-convention

    There are quite a few people on this forum from Seattle. Only a couple of us argue a lot though haha.

    I didn't know about this, but it doesn't surprise me. 
  • I thought this was interesting, and thought that I'd share because we have at least two members here from the Seattle area(-ish!).

    We Snuck into Seattle's Super Secret White Nationalist Convention

    http://www.thestranger.com/news/2017/10/04/25451102/we-snuck-into-seattles-super-secret-white-nationalist-convention

    There are quite a few people on this forum from Seattle. Only a couple of us argue a lot though haha. And one of us is a bot so he hardly counts.

    I didn't know about this, but it doesn't surprise me. 
    I didn't mean to pick on Seattle by posting it, believe me this stuff happens everywhere - including Toronto.  I thought that it offered a really interesting perspective though, insights like this can be rare and the more we know about them the better!

  • DeeDee Adelaide
    What did I just say this morning about shading, @akritenbrink? If you don't like someone, ignore them. But knock off the sniping.
  • akritenbrinkakritenbrink Lynnwood, WA (Seattle area)
    Dee said:

    What did I just say this morning about shading, @akritenbrink? If you don't like someone, ignore them. But knock off the sniping.

    It's a joke and he's in on it... But thanks mom
  • DeeDee Adelaide

    Dee said:

    What did I just say this morning about shading, @akritenbrink? If you don't like someone, ignore them. But knock off the sniping.

    It's a joke and he's in on it... But thanks mom
    I've seen him question you about making personal attacks on him. I'm not gonna argue about it. Just give it a bloody rest.
  • akritenbrinkakritenbrink Lynnwood, WA (Seattle area)
    OK I mean... there's an actual white supremacist posting white supremacist stuff on this thread daily and I tell you and you say he's coming close to the edge or something... but the emnbot joke is too much for you lol

    @emnofseattle sorry if I hurt your feelings brodude
    GredalBee
  • DeeDee Adelaide
    @akritenbrink Rule 1: Don't be a dick. Guess who gets to decide who's being a fucking dick, Angie?
    GredalBee
  • akritenbrinkakritenbrink Lynnwood, WA (Seattle area)
    We all know... It's you. Congrats!
    GredalBee
  • LordByLordBy Utah
    edited October 5
    I'm just trying to think of policy solutions to the problems we've been experiencing in the USA. National gun registry seems to be the solution that might address the problem to me.

    I understand that the right wing will be opposed, but I'm trying to think of a soloution rather than an ideologically consistant position.

    My uncle is a big-time hunter and owns many guns. He is not a threat and has accumulated his dozens of guns over time as a collector and hunter. He is not the problem.

    National registry would protect my uncle while flagging someone buying 40 guns over a year to some excess scrutiny. Also would penalize folks selling weapons illegallly into places like Chicago by following initial purchases back to the buyers and penalizing them in addition to the trigger-pullers.

    I'm all kinds of open to other ideas, but only if they are meant to decrease mass murder. If your position is that mass murder is an acceptable side affect of a free society, than I just have to argue that your position is unacceptable. I'm ready to make that argument, but I think that a well regulated militia is possible without allowing folks to buy dozens of assualtt weapons in a 6-12mos period without question like the LV shooter was able to do.

    The problem is obviously unacceptable, so give me some other solutions rather than defense of the problem. The status quo is not acceptable and no amount of "good guys with guns" could solve the kind of problem we had in 'Vegas.
  • edited October 5
    @Dee Hah, I'm sorry you had to defend the guy that's abrasive and politically opposed to almost everyone here.  Others have said and implied much worse things about him, which I'd say is fair if you're going to step into this community, alienate people and hock that point of view.  There's opinions and then there's constantly making every political topic a toxic shithole, which bothers me.  That deserves a closer look from mods more than anything I'm doing.

    @Thomas @akritenbrink I check the politics thread everyday and I remember moments where ideas and concerns were discussed in a matter that was illuminating.  Hell, even he-who-shall-not-be-named has raised some interesting points.  Then it turned into (right) fake news article countered by a (left) fake news article, followed by a (right) obscure statistic countered with a (left) obscure statistic, and the bullshit just keeps turning.  It's the same players, so I can only assume there's some kind of emotional sunk cost fallacy going on, but what the actual fuck people?

    Half the time I open this thread, it's inaccessible shit slinging between random statistics and law precedents, with both sides crawling further up their own asses until facts mean nothing and they're just interpreting words.  Inevitably one side starts asking questions incredulously, like am I the only one here who sees this dude's responses, and then the cycle repeats with a different topic.  I don't get the point, I don't even know what the fuck this is, I just want better.
  • akritenbrinkakritenbrink Lynnwood, WA (Seattle area)
    We did have a rap battle a few days ago, so that's something.
    GredalBee
  • edited October 5
    I support the Oxford Comma
    Just like I supported Obama
    And you know I double space
    'Cause I'm down with every race

    No?
    TaraC73Flukes
  • akritenbrinkakritenbrink Lynnwood, WA (Seattle area)
    Too little, too late, man
    GredalBee
  • edited October 5

    OK I mean... there's an actual white supremacist posting white supremacist stuff on this thread daily and I tell you and you say he's coming close to the edge or something... but the emnbot joke is too much for you lol


    @emnofseattle sorry if I hurt your feelings brodude
    Who exactly is the white supremacist posting on here everyday? I see a couple of folks who are conservative, like myself, but haven't seen anyone specifically spouting off about their love for white supremacy and hatred for minorities.
    Brawn
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    Well, this is disappointing, and yes, you can google to read from other sources along with photos from the event, however, I didn't want to post a Fox News link on here, and CNN is silent as usual.

    The fact that someone would say that the "ACLU protects white supremacy" shows that emotions control politics rather than logic. All are just sheep parroting each other in their own little echo chambers.

    Brawn
  • They voiced their opinions, we may not AGREE with everything the ALCU does, but they do try to protect the rights of everyone. I want them to protect the rights of those white supremacists, it allows me/us to know who they are. If we try to suppress them, then we are no better.
    All the ChickensCretanBullBrawn
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    KingKobra said:

    They voiced their opinions, we may not AGREE with everything the ALCU does, but they do try to protect the rights of everyone. I want them to protect the rights of those white supremacists, it allows me/us to know who they are. If we try to suppress them, then we are no better.

    And the thing is, that wasn't some event where white supremacists were even speaking. That's just what some of these so-called "Woke" fringe elements are now equating to "Free Speech"
  • KingKobra said:

    They voiced their opinions, we may not AGREE with everything the ALCU does, but they do try to protect the rights of everyone. I want them to protect the rights of those white supremacists, it allows me/us to know who they are. If we try to suppress them, then we are no better.

    And the thing is, that wasn't some event where white supremacists were even speaking. That's just what some of these so-called "Woke" fringe elements are now equating to "Free Speech"
    *shrug* there will always be fringe elements that go against the grain. Because they affiliate themselves with BLM it's "news" which tries to reflect on the entire BLM group.
    CretanBull
  • KingKobra said:

    KingKobra said:

    They voiced their opinions, we may not AGREE with everything the ALCU does, but they do try to protect the rights of everyone. I want them to protect the rights of those white supremacists, it allows me/us to know who they are. If we try to suppress them, then we are no better.

    And the thing is, that wasn't some event where white supremacists were even speaking. That's just what some of these so-called "Woke" fringe elements are now equating to "Free Speech"
    *shrug* there will always be fringe elements that go against the grain. Because they affiliate themselves with BLM it's "news" which tries to reflect on the entire BLM group.
    That's always been the case, on both sides.  These kids are stupid, but BLM is a great movement.
    KingKobra
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA

    Well, this is disappointing, and yes, you can google to read from other sources along with photos from the event, however, I didn't want to post a Fox News link on here, and CNN is silent as usual.


    The fact that someone would say that the "ACLU protects white supremacy" shows that emotions control politics rather than logic. All are just sheep parroting each other in their own little echo chambers.

    This is good, maybe it'll cause some of the liberals who assign value based on how oppressed a group is to realize how flawed that thinking is.

    Because according to their logic, a black person doesn't like it? Well we'd better stop, no matter how valid the point is.

    No, no, NO.

    Or they could just find a black, homosexual Muslim to say they support the ACLU and continue as planned.

This discussion has been closed.