The Last Jedi (Spoilers Section)

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  • I like this article from Slashfilm: 

    ‘The Last Jedi’ Doesn’t Care What You Think About ‘Star Wars’ – And That’s Why It’s Great

    http://www.slashfilm.com/the-last-jedi-defense/
    allthewayhomeRyanReesemanLannitikFlukes
  • My husband and I went and saw this tonight.  We both really enjoyed it.
    I love the direction they're taking the story. 
    But oh my gosh, every scene Carrie Fisher was in broke my heart (I didn't know Carrie Fisher's daughter was also in this movie, which was a nice surprise).  I'm still so sad she's gone.  :(
    ElisaAgenerous
  • edited December 2017
    People can survive in outer space for a limited amount of time, in real life.  Leia just also happened to be able to Force glide.  My problem was that her eyes opened, which would've made them immediately freeze/explode.
    TaraC73Lannitik
  • I don’t have a problem with Leia being in outer space and using the force to get back but just make her like 5 feet away. She was just to far from the ship and her Mary Poppins return looked comically bad. 
    JoshuaHeter
  • edited December 2017
    I could've really also done away with Rose kissing Finn. Felt really forced. I don't mind that she's crushing on Finn but I felt it better they just insinuate she feels something for him. This movie did not need romance and I think the audience is sophisticated enough not to expect it. Not sure why it was there unless Rian just wanted to echo that there's always a kiss in the second movie of a trilogy. 
    JoshuaHeterJTKIIIFlukes
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited December 2017
    I thought it was terrific. A perfect blend of suspenseful storytelling, drama, and some comedy thrown in to make one of the better SW movies. I did have a few issues, Snokes quick demise before we learn anything about him being one of rhem.

    Here is my crack at why critics overwhelmingly loved this movie while some of the SW diehards absolutely hated it:

    I think some of the diehards who are so against it are coming into the movie with very specific expectations of what Star Wars needs to be and what they want to happen, and when it doesn't go that way it's complete nerd rage. To me that is a bad way to look at movies, or at least to view them.

    This movie literally tells it's characters and the audience multiple times to LET GO OF THE PAST.

    This one has a fucking number in the title though. It's a chapter. It's fine if SW wants to tell a different story, but not mid-book. 

    By chapter 8 of 9 (or 5 of 6), yeah, I want my expectations met. They can play loosey-goosey with the denouement, but the climax and the immediately preceding beats must hit the established punches. 
    JoshuaHeterRid
  • Was that not the point? Of course it was a taunt, I said nothing to the contrary.
    Do you deny the fact that it was played for a laugh / cute moment in what would otherwise be a tense / emotional charged moment? A large number of people in my theater laughed. Luke didn't pop his collar when he defeated Vader in Return of the Jedi.

    Maybe Star Wars isn't what it used to be, and that's fine. I (of course) still want there to be (subtle, appropriately placed) humor in Star Wars, but I'm just one of those people who'd like the franchise to take itself just a little more seriously like (I know, I know), the good ol' days.
    JaimieTRid
  • Saw it last night, underwhelmed.

    I don't buy Luke losing hope so easily after Ben turns. Don't buy the scenario of him standing over Ben w/lightsaber in hand either.

    Don't like how powerful Rey is after a mere day or two of training. Kylo was off balance in TFA but now he finds his resolve, and Rey is still a match for him?

    They mashed together elements of ESB and ROTJ and put a slightly different twist on it. I'm amused by comments that it's a challenging movie. Because we're supposed to let it go?

    They give a throwaway line about how corrupt the jedi became during the PT, but don't delve into it enough for it to be meaningful

    I found at least some of the EU novels a lot more interesting. The Thrawn trilogy as a major example of this. Heck of a lot better than Eps 7 and 8

    Thinking about it now, my biggest problem with the saga overall is that the jedi supposedly fell a mere 20 years or so prior to ANH, but everyday people either don't believe they ever existed, or hold them in contempt. They seem too damn prominent in the PT for that to be realistic in any way. They should either have been much more secretive and smaller, or killed off say 50-100 years prior to the OT. Obi-Wan should have been the age Alec Guinness looks in ANH. Vader would have been a later apprentice after the fall of the Jedi order. Hence his comment that he was mistaken that he could train Anakin as well as Yoda would have. When Anakin is being trained as a member of the regular order, it doesn't make sense to me.

    But now I'm just writing fanfiction.
    JaimieTseanrayLannitikrkcrawfRid
  • @jhparks please pitch that to Disney. Would love to see that!
  • After contemplating this movie overnight, I realize what really bothers me about it. There’s just no compelling strategy or battle of wits. I wanted smart fantasy like Game of Thrones and I got hand wavy, make-it-up-as-you-go fantasy like Harry Potter. I really tried to have no expectations going into it, but subconsciously I was probably hoping for a really smart film since Rian Johnson was directing and Looper is one of my favorite movies of this decade. I’d probably feel very different about TLJ and the future of Star Wars if I had kids. But, as an adult, I’m having a hard time envisioning this franchise being anything other than children’s movies from here on out.
    Rid
  • edited December 2017
    I thought it was terrific. A perfect blend of suspenseful storytelling, drama, and some comedy thrown in to make one of the better SW movies. I did have a few issues, Snokes quick demise before we learn anything about him being one of rhem.

    Here is my crack at why critics overwhelmingly loved this movie while some of the SW diehards absolutely hated it:

    I think some of the diehards who are so against it are coming into the movie with very specific expectations of what Star Wars needs to be and what they want to happen, and when it doesn't go that way it's complete nerd rage. To me that is a bad way to look at movies, or at least to view them.

    This movie literally tells it's characters and the audience multiple times to LET GO OF THE PAST.
    It tells you to let go of the past, and then immediately undercuts that very message by having Yoda coming in and convincing Luke, Rey taking the Jedi books and becoming literally the last jedi, setting up the same old light versus dark conflict, etc.

    It literally backtracks all the potential new directions. Luke thinks the jedi must die, and is convinced otherwise by Yoda. Rey and Kylo say that they can go beyond the old light versus dark, only to go back to light versus dark. And we go back almost exactly to the beginning of the new hope: new order as the empire with a dark side force user as leader, scattered rebels with a young force sensitive person learning to use their powers from a recently deceased jedi master.


    TheHeardTheoremalina_macrkcrawfjhpark
  • JTKIII said:
    The 93% Critic Reviews compared to the 56% Audience Reviews on Rotten Tomates is eye opening to me. I liked this movie but when I went on RT last night I was expecting to see its rating in the mid 70s and was blown away when i saw it at 93%. If a movie is sitting in the 90’s It better be a masterpiece and The Last Jedi is definitely nowhere near that IMO. I’m seeing claims that Disney paid off the critics but I think that’s laughable. This is a good movie but I think it had a lot of flaws that held it back from being excellent.
    It’s because this movie was a deconstruction of the Star Wars saga, and critics love that sort of thing. Especially after The Force Awakens, which was such a blatant ripoff of A New Hope. 

    This was a movie with a lot of meta commentary on the franchise as a whole, and that’s always going to win points with people who like that sort of thing.
    LannitikElisaRid
  • Was that not the point? Of course it was a taunt, I said nothing to the contrary.
    Do you deny the fact that it was played for a laugh / cute moment in what would otherwise be a tense / emotional charged moment? A large number of people in my theater laughed. Luke didn't pop his collar when he defeated Vader in Return of the Jedi.

    Maybe Star Wars isn't what it used to be, and that's fine. I (of course) still want there to be (subtle, appropriately placed) humor in Star Wars, but I'm just one of those people who'd like the franchise to take itself just a little more seriously like (I know, I know), the good ol' days.
    No, I don’t. It was definitely played for humor because Luke was taunting Kylo into a fight. I’m not sure what the problem is with that. My post was in reference to the people who said “This doesn’t feel like Star Wars! Has Luke been listening to Jay Z on that island? Stupid!”

    And Star Wars very deliberately isn’t what it used to be. It spent 2 and a half hours telling you that in this movie. 
  • The humor that was in the OT was very much the “modern” humor of its time, too. Humor evolves with the times, just like everything else. This is very much a Star Wars made for our current climate. 
    KingKobraElisa
  • Was that not the point? Of course it was a taunt, I said nothing to the contrary.
    Do you deny the fact that it was played for a laugh / cute moment in what would otherwise be a tense / emotional charged moment? A large number of people in my theater laughed. Luke didn't pop his collar when he defeated Vader in Return of the Jedi.

    Maybe Star Wars isn't what it used to be, and that's fine. I (of course) still want there to be (subtle, appropriately placed) humor in Star Wars, but I'm just one of those people who'd like the franchise to take itself just a little more seriously like (I know, I know), the good ol' days.
    No, I don’t. It was definitely played for humor because Luke was taunting Kylo into a fight. I’m not sure what the problem is with that. My post was in reference to the people who said “This doesn’t feel like Star Wars! Has Luke been listening to Jay Z on that island? Stupid!”

    And Star Wars very deliberately isn’t what it used to be. It spent 2 and a half hours telling you that in this movie. 
    Cut and paste and a few things and you have a defense of Jar Jar Binks.

    A large part of what makes the OT great was (besides the awesome world building) the skillfull balance of adventure, fun (including humor), high stakes and even deep emotion.

    I'm just one of many, many people who believe that they've failed to live up to this achievement in the new movies with uneven tones and misplaced humor.

    Also, I reject the idea that this is just "modern" humor. Corniness was still a thing in the late 70's and early 80's... possibly even more so. Multiple times in the film there was inserted "humor" that noticeably deflated the stakes and the tension in ways that IMO harmed the scene.

    1. Towards the beginning when Poe is just messing with Hux via some sort of telecom. Are we supposed to fear for the safety of The Resistence? Is the First Order something to worry about, or are they just a school yard bully with no actual bite?

    2. In what would otherwise be a meaningful confrontation, Finn calls Phasma "Chrome Dome". Finn was a literal slave and he now has a chance to confront his former tormenter and he raddles off a line that belongs on a Saturday morning cartoon.

    3. Again, the Luke shoulder wipe just deflated the scene. Heroes are IMO more interesting when they come off as at least a little vulnerable.

    We don't have to agree about any of this. The original episodes were both popcorn movies and something coming close to high art. The people who loved TLJ don't mind (or like) Star Wars being more popcorny, those of us who liked but didn't love TLJ want it to be a bit closer to high art.
    JaimieTpodcartfanrkcrawfGiovanniRid
  • “High art.” LOL.
    GeomecKingKobra
  • “High art.” LOL.
    I'm thankful you're willing to defend your ideas with thoughtful, reasoned argumentation.
    JaimieT
  • JoshuaHeter said:

    We don't have to agree about any of this. The original episodes were both popcorn movies and something coming close to high art. The people who loved TLJ don't mind (or like) Star Wars being more popcorny, those of us who liked but didn't love TLJ want it to be a bit closer to high art.

    Ultimately I think Episode 5 is the only one that comes close to high art. Episode 4 is a fun romp that's very well done, but SW is SW because of ESB. The saga has never matched that peak and I expect never will again. In my view ESB is in the running for one of the best movies of all time, up there with Godfather, Citizen Kane, and anything else you care to put on that list. I don't seriously think that of any other SW episode

  • There’s nothing to defend. We fundamentally disagree about everything to do with this movie.

    I’ve had an incredibly emotional connection with both TFA and TLJ, and I finally feel like I have MY Star Wars. 

    To say that any of these movies even remotely approach High Art though is...well it’s something. 
    gguenot
  • Oh man...Just got out of the movie. This movie is balanced between the good and the bad. The stuff that worked really worked, but there were some issues I have trouble overlooking.
    • They do remix old movies. I accepted it with JJ and Force Awakens, but now it feels like its a crutch. This isn't Stranger Things...find some new beats.
    • Finn's plan might be worse than Jon Snow's Season 6 plan. In the middle of a desperate battle, where going to take an excursion to Monte Carlo, getting captured, and getting back just took way too long. They could have saved about 30 min out of the film by cutting that down. It destroyed the tension of that part of that movie.
    • Some other stuff was poorly executed. Laura Dern, some weird sudden chemistry with Poe and Rey, some forced stuff with Finn and Rose. Rose as a character was pretty awful. 
    • Some of the comedy just fell flat (at least with the audience). I agree that Luke brushing his shoulder off was a bit too much. 
    • Way too much Porg. 
    I liked a lot of the movie. Mark Hamill, Adam Driver, and Daisy Ridley were all great. The Snoke thing was basically a remix, but I still liked it. The battle scenes were good. The semi-Picard maneuver was amazing to watch. I even liked the Leia trick, as I thought, she was done fer.

    Thematically, I liked the direction of the film. There was some weight to it, with balancing the Force. Part of me did want to see Rey and Kylo team up temporarily because it would have been something new. Star Wars could use a little anti-hero. 

    The other issue we're going to run into is over-saturation. If they come out with a new one of these things every year, each one gets diminished. We've been trained for 8 films that the Skywalkers are the most important thing in the universe. So once that's over with, how are they going to get us to care about some B plot? Hopefully, the stand alone flicks and the next set of main films after Ep 9 will be more character or genre driven. 

    JaimieTRyanReesemanjhparkElisa
  • @KingKobra ;

    I could've sworn the line about the spy came before they ran into DJ (by what seemed to be pure luck). Also, I *think* he was only ever with Fin and Rose on the stolen ship before they snuck onto the First Order ship.

    That said... I already have a dodgy record at remembering the details of this movie. :)
    Your memory fails you young padawan. On the way to Snokes ship Finn and Rose contact Poe. During this conversation they talk about how they are going to escape in smaller ships. While this is going on DJ is listening (they show both happening). So he (DJ) knows their entire plan. After Finn and Rose are captured and kneeling down Hux gets the report that they scanned ~30 cloaked ships. Hux replies that he’s surprised the information “checked out”. After this is when DJ is revealed as the one who betrayed them. 

    I nust gor back a bit a bit ago from my second viewing. This time at a 2D theater. While the visual/Audio experience was much less, I actually came away feeling better about the movie. There were only a couple things I might have cut and personally I would have moved the Liea scene to the end and have her die in space. I thought it was a beautiful shot and would have been a near perfect ending for her character “on screen”. While I still like TFA more, I enjoyed this viewing much more than opening night. 
    LannitikElisaweeniegirl
  • I would have had Leia do the hyperspace slice of the imperial, I mean first order, fleet. Would have been a fitting tribute to Fisher's passing imo
    Rid
  • MrXMrX CO
    edited December 2017
    Count me in the "this was awesome" category. Mark Hamill was amazing, and that was the critical role in the movie. The Rey and Ren story line and acting were great, .... Holy shit that fight scene in Snoke's chamber.

    I thought the Leia and Poe and Laura Dern stuff was also done really well. The theater gasped when she jumped to light speed through the First Order fleet. Such an amazing visual. Such a good use of sound design.

    And speaking of visuals Rian Johnson and his crew brought the noise, there were some of the best and most memorable shots in the Star Wars franchise in this film. For example Leia looking out the blast door, and Luke's final shot, so good.

    I'll concede that some of the casino stuff was unnecessary, but I enjoyed the performances of all the actors involved, and liked how they closed with the kids at the end, so it didn't diminish the film for me.

    Wish Rian was making ep. 9.
    WintersComingAfterFallElisagjulleenweeniegirl
  • I thought it was terrific. A perfect blend of suspenseful storytelling, drama, and some comedy thrown in to make one of the better SW movies. I did have a few issues, Snokes quick demise before we learn anything about him being one of rhem.

    Here is my crack at why critics overwhelmingly loved this movie while some of the SW diehards absolutely hated it:

    I think some of the diehards who are so against it are coming into the movie with very specific expectations of what Star Wars needs to be and what they want to happen, and when it doesn't go that way it's complete nerd rage. To me that is a bad way to look at movies, or at least to view them.

    This movie literally tells it's characters and the audience multiple times to LET GO OF THE PAST.
    Yeah im with you here. And honestly i dont see how anyone can say rogue ome was better than this movie or even a good movie. In what way other than it fit perfectly into.what ppl thought it would be. Rogue one was safe.as can be and had not 1 single fleshed out character. Last jedi didnt fit into a box of wut ppl.think star wars has to be and i loved it. The only bigger flaw was the casino stuff which on 2nd viewing came and went much faster than i thought. Everything with rey, kylo, luke, leia and poe was great. I love those characters and wut they did with them. There was great action throughtout along with the emotional beats with the characters.
    Elisa
  • I read words like "awesome" or "best Star Wars since Empire" and I wonder if we saw the same movie. 

    This movie was decent, but far from a masterpiece. 
    The pacing was easily the worst part. 
    It felt like a three hour movie, anyone who tells me it felt like a face paced thrill ride, I call a liar. 
    The acting was decent, the humor was forced, the Video Game style side plot was frustrating. 

    BUT the fights were nice, the starship battles were phenomenal. 
    It was a solid C+ or maybe a 6/10

    JoshuaHeterJaimieTRidrustywright4
  • As for why the Metacritic or Rotten Tomatoes score is in the 90s while the people's score is in the 50s/60s is simply because Disney commands weight when it comes to Star Wars. They forced theaters to put it on X number of screens X times(hence why my local theaters had to run it almost 24/7 for the first day(yes even at 3am) even tho they were mostly empty at the time. 
    Critics are GOING to score these movies high. Even people who loved this film, don't think it was better than Empire, and yet the critics supposedly thought so. 

    I doubt it's their real opinion. 

    Rid
  • MrX said: 
    Count me in the "this was awesome" category. Mark Hamill was amazing, and that was the critical role in the movie. The Rey and Ren story line and acting were great, .... Holy shit that fight scene in Snoke's chamber.

    I thought the Leia and Poe and Laura Dern stuff was also done really well. The theater gasped when she jumped to light speed through the First Order fleet. Such an amazing visual. Such a good use of sound design.

    And speaking of visuals Rian Johnson and his crew brought the noise, there were some of the best and most memorable shots in the Star Wars franchise in this film. For example Leia looking out the blast door, and Luke's final shot, so good.

    I'll concede that some of the casino stuff was unnecessary, but I enjoyed the performances of all the actors involved, and liked how they closed with the kids at the end, so it didn't diminish the film for me.

    Wish Rian was making ep. 9.
    I 2nd all of this
  • Lannitik said:
    As for why the Metacritic or Rotten Tomatoes score is in the 90s while the people's score is in the 50s/60s is simply because Disney commands weight when it comes to Star Wars. They forced theaters to put it on X number of screens X times(hence why my local theaters had to run it almost 24/7 for the first day(yes even at 3am) even tho they were mostly empty at the time. 
    Critics are GOING to score these movies high. Even people who loved this film, don't think it was better than Empire, and yet the critics supposedly thought so. 

    I doubt it's their real opinion. 

    The user scores on those sites are more bullshit than the critic scores. As of now the Last Jedi has a 5 on metacritic and Batman v Superman has a 7. Yea right. 

    There is a whole lot of self selection bias going on with the type of people who will rate movies online.
  • LannitikLannitik Milwaukee
    edited December 2017
    MrX said:
    Lannitik said:
    As for why the Metacritic or Rotten Tomatoes score is in the 90s while the people's score is in the 50s/60s is simply because Disney commands weight when it comes to Star Wars. They forced theaters to put it on X number of screens X times(hence why my local theaters had to run it almost 24/7 for the first day(yes even at 3am) even tho they were mostly empty at the time. 
    Critics are GOING to score these movies high. Even people who loved this film, don't think it was better than Empire, and yet the critics supposedly thought so. 

    I doubt it's their real opinion. 

    The user scores on those sites are more bullshit than the critic scores. As of now the Last Jedi has a 5 on metacritic and Batman v Superman has a 7. Yea right. 

    There is a whole lot of self selection bias going on with the type of people who will rate movies online.
    I mean, I understand why you feel that way, because I'm SURE you felt it was a great movie, but it's telling when both sites share the same opinion. 
    It is very reasonable to believe that the critic score is ABSOLUTE bullshit, since supposedly The Last Jedi is as good as Goodfellas.... Oh, and better than Wolf of Wall Street... and almost as good as Dunkirk LOL
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