U.S. Politics Part 5: Same old Thread...Just New.

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  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    asmallcat said:u
    Yes, it's exhausting to keep harping on every insane thing that Trump does. But it's also necessary. This is not normal. It is not right. Most of what this administration is doing is actively evil. So, we cannot let it be normalized. A sitting US president essentially said that criticizing him is treason. I don't care if he was quoting someone else. I don't care if he doesn't know what treason means, because he clearly knows it's punishable, and if he could he would certainly make it mean that criticizing him was treason that he could throw you in jail for. The man is a sociopath, and the GOP is all-in on enabling him.

    Every single thing he does that is evil, or stupid, or insane, or any combination thereof needs to be called out. Every one. That's how we keep telling people this is not ok. That's how we stop this from becoming normal.

    It's very easy for the people in this thread, who probably have a fair amount of spare time, are stable enough to have constant internet access, and who probably aren't being immediately impacted by these policies. So, we can say "everything will be ok" and probably be right. But that's not true for a lot of people. People die in this country from lack of health care. People's lives will be meaningfully and negatively impacted when the budget cuts that will be necessary to pay for this insane tax cut on corporations and the super rich come home to roost. We can't get complacent just because our lives are still ok - unless we want to live without compassion for those worse off than us. 

    He knows "treasonous" is punishable? Sorry, where was that? I missed it.

    You argue that it's necessary to keep up with everything Trump says. Necessary for what? At the end, you say this sort of vigilance is an expression of compassion for those less fortunate. So, you think it's necessary to keep up with Trump's tweets in order to be a compassionate person? Do you allow for compassion existing in people who do not keep up with Trump's tweets? 
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    I definitely think we should be paying attention every day and discussing this every day. Obviously hysteria does no good but we're in a highly problematic situation with this President and I don't think it's desirable to just sit back and wait for it to be over. When someone tells you who they are, as Trump does daily, you need to listen.

    That's a fine choice. Incidentally, my post was not advocating for consuming less news. It was advocating for less hysteria which, as you said, does no good. 
  • pavlovsbellpavlovsbell Brooklyn, NY
    "Trump’s ‘marching orders’ to the Pentagon: Plan a grand military parade"

    excerpt:
    President Trump’s vision of soldiers marching and tanks rolling down the boulevards of Washington is moving closer to reality in the Pentagon and White House, where officials say they have begun to plan a grand military parade later this year showcasing the might of America’s armed forces.

    Trump has long mused publicly and privately about wanting such a parade, but a Jan. 18 meeting between Trump and top generals in the Pentagon’s tank — a room reserved for top-secret discussions — marked a tipping point, according to two officials briefed on the planning.

    Surrounded by the military’s highest-ranking officials, including Defense Secretary Jim Mattis and Joint Chiefs Chairman Gen. Joseph F. Dunford Jr., Trump’s seemingly abstract desire for a parade was suddenly heard as a presidential directive, the officials said.

    “The marching orders were: I want a parade like the one in France,” said a military official who spoke on the condition of anonymity because the planning discussions are supposed to remain confidential. “This is being worked at the highest levels of the military.”

    ********

    Super secret video of the directive:


    Phoebes89
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited February 2018
    @pavlovsbell"People should be alarmed and angry..."

    I don't understand how a pervasive state of alarm and anger is the reaction people should have. 

    Is there any appropriate time to feel calm?

    If not, it's a damn shame, because people are notorious for making terrible decisions under such heightened emotional states you profess they should be in. 

    "Telling people to "calm the fuck down" or employing hyperbole like "hysteria" is one shade away from the far right mocking us for being triggered."

    Good call! Essentially I am saying people are triggered; I'm just not mocking them for it. I'm treating it pretty seriously. 

  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited February 2018
    This is kind of tangential, but is anyone else bummed to hear Harry Enten is leaving 538? Apparently, he's going to CNN, which will probably benefit from an analytical mindset with the midterms coming, but as someone who doesn't really follow cable news, he will be missed from my political news consumption.

    Was this in the latest podcast? 
  • From my point of view, it's *hard* to stay calm.  It feels like the very fabric of our government is under attack, many different areas of it, in many different ways. 

    If it was one thing, that'd be bad enough, but it's countless things, and it's every day.
    And it's exhausting, which I'm sure it's intended to be.  I feel it's important to stay informed and aware, because there are so many things, every day - you look away for a few hours ... and a whole new thing has come up. 

    I may have said this here before, but if I'd known what was coming, I'd have invested in Xanax, because I'm sure they're making a killing right now, lol.
    JaimieT
  • On a scale from 1 to 10, with 1 being, 'not North Korea at all' and 10 being, 'Capital N, Capital K, North Korea', how North Korea is the idea of Trump having a military parade, with AFVs, missile launchers, and marching soldiers through Washington, D.C.?
    April_May_June
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • Perhaps we will see an alternate reality in The Man in the High Castle season 4 where North Korea and Russia have colonized the US and Trump is now just traded as the ‘Gimp’ for Putin and Kim Jong Un.
    CretanBull
  • edited February 2018
    JaimieT said:
    This is kind of tangential, but is anyone else bummed to hear Harry Enten is leaving 538? Apparently, he's going to CNN, which will probably benefit from an analytical mindset with the midterms coming, but as someone who doesn't really follow cable news, he will be missed from my political news consumption.

    Was this in the latest podcast? 
    In the one that dropped Monday they do an announcement at the start. He said the new gig is CNN on Twitter. 
    JaimieT
  • Dee said:
    Save us Michelle, you're our only hope!
    Frakkin T
  • "Trump’s ‘marching orders’ to the Pentagon: Plan a grand military parade"

    excerpt:
    President Trump’s vision of soldiers marching and tanks rolling down the boulevards of Washington is moving closer to reality in the Pentagon and White House, where officials say they have begun to plan a grand military parade later this year showcasing the might of America’s armed forces.

    Trump has long mused publicly and privately about wanting such a parade, but a Jan. 18 meeting between Trump and top generals in the Pentagon’s tank — a room reserved for top-secret discussions — marked a tipping point, according to two officials briefed on the planning.

    Surrounded by the military’s highest-ranking officials, including Defense Secretary Jim Mattis and Joint Chiefs Chairman Gen. Joseph F. Dunford Jr., Trump’s seemingly abstract desire for a parade was suddenly heard as a presidential directive, the officials said.

    “The marching orders were: I want a parade like the one in France,” said a military official who spoke on the condition of anonymity because the planning discussions are supposed to remain confidential. “This is being worked at the highest levels of the military.”

    ********

    Super secret video of the directive:


    Are people still questioning whether or not Trump has an admiration for fascism?
    darwinfeeshyApril_May_June
  • pavlovsbellpavlovsbell Brooklyn, NY
    @CretanBull "Are people still questioning whether or not Trump has an admiration for fascism?"

    Trump's authoritarian actions; e.g., refusing to impose sanctions on Russia, enable the GOP's authoritarian leanings:

    1. Wisconsin refuses to hold special elections (they also fired their top election and ethics officials)

    2. Pennsylvania Republicans refused a court order in the gerrymandering case and now are calling to impeach the judges. Thankfully -- and surprisingly -- SCOTUS has refused to hear their gerrymandering petition.   

    When the Constitution and the rule of law mean nothing to the President and Commander-in-Chief, and his base applauds, his party will follow. An excerpt from a reasonable and persuasive Atlantic article written by conservatives:



    And it concludes with this syllogism:
    (1) The GOP has become the party of Trumpism.
    (2) Trumpism is a threat to democratic values and the rule of law.
    (3) The Republican Party is a threat to democratic values and the rule of law.
    April_May_JuneFrakkin TCretanBulltom_gvoodooratPhoebes89
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  • did i miss anything?

    this is scary...  https://www.vox.com/world/2018/2/6/16978558/nunes-memo-republicans-fbi-trump-poll

    we shake our heads at other people who go down the path of authoritarianism or "allow themselves" to be led by dictatorships without realizing how close we stand to the edge and what it is that protects us from going over it (and many of those who argue for "freedom" don't actually like it except the way the word sounds).  it's stunning to me how shallow the "foundational beliefs" often wind up being in politics when push comes to shove, how quickly they can completely change for no reason except for team groupthink/tribalism.
    April_May_June
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited February 2018
    JaimieT said:
    I definitely think we should be paying attention every day and discussing this every day. Obviously hysteria does no good but we're in a highly problematic situation with this President and I don't think it's desirable to just sit back and wait for it to be over. When someone tells you who they are, as Trump does daily, you need to listen.

    That's a fine choice. Incidentally, my post was not advocating for consuming less news. It was advocating for less hysteria which, as you said, does no good. 
    Yeah, I guess we just don't know if we're defining hysteria the same way. Like if you are comparing it to being triggered, that's now how I am thinking of my state of mind, but I can see where some of the stuff I write or especially post on FB could be seen that way. I also think we need to take Facebook posts in a slightly different context as it's more about sound bites, clickbait, pictures and video than in-depth discussion.

    I do think it's concerning that Trump makes a statement that if you don't clap for him, it's treason. I don't know if I can jump on board with the idea that he's speaking metaphorically. His presidency so far has included a litany of situations where the executive branch overstepped and were slapped back by the courts. So it is concerning to me on a very literal level. 

    The military parade, IDK. I know comparisons to North Korea spring to mind, but he came up with this idea when he went to France. So I kind of feel like he's more interested in the pageantry and the "look at me, I'm strong" aspect of it rather than something darker. When I imagine him at the parade, he's standing on some kind of dais and looking very excited like that time he got to honk the horn of a big truck. But at the same time- going back to the last paragraph and thinking of it in that context does make it sound really dark. And what's concerning to me about having such a narcissistic buffoon in office is that they are easy to manipulate and he has so many people in his orbit that have really dark visions for this country.

    I don't even fully know what 'being triggered' means; I just know hysteria might be a result of that. And nothing anyone has written here made me think of that word... just the Facebook posts. You're right; Facebook posts are almost always... less level-headed. At least, that's my experience.

    I would not categorize my interpretation of Trump's use of "treasonous" as metaphorical. Just ignorant. I'd also suggest Trump wouldn't have been able to define "metaphor" along with "treason" 2 months ago. 

    And even if he acted on that, the courts would slap him back. The courts have given us no reason to doubt their vigilance.

    Our president is a reality TV star. Our president loves attention. I always try to remember that.

    And hey, he wants a military parade! More of the same. 

    tom_g said:
    On a scale from 1 to 10, with 1 being, 'not North Korea at all' and 10 being, 'Capital N, Capital K, North Korea', how North Korea is the idea of Trump having a military parade, with AFVs, missile launchers, and marching soldiers through Washington, D.C.?

    Closer to 1, since North Korea isn't currently using their military in active warfare.

    From my point of view, it's *hard* to stay calm.  It feels like the very fabric of our government is under attack, many different areas of it, in many different ways. 

    If it was one thing, that'd be bad enough, but it's countless things, and it's every day.
    And it's exhausting, which I'm sure it's intended to be.  I feel it's important to stay informed and aware, because there are so many things, every day - you look away for a few hours ... and a whole new thing has come up. 

    I may have said this here before, but if I'd known what was coming, I'd have invested in Xanax, because I'm sure they're making a killing right now, lol.

    I appreciate your reply, because I think it's hard to stay calm too, and obviously I want to talk about that. Have you listened to Dan Carlin's Common Sense podcast? He's the one that does Hardcore History, which Aron and many others are fans of. He used to podcast so regularly, but lately he's finding trouble having anything to talk about, since the news moves on so quickly. He suggested a monthly newspaper to get a good overall idea of where things are going. But even then, he's still not making shows! It's fucking annoying. He's the best.

    Anyway, he probably prompted this idea of mine: I think it's important to note not just what's happening around us, but what's happening to us. The way we conduct our lives is also a valuable asset we shouldn't want to lose.

    Personally, I think 24-hour news is as much to blame as Trump for the damaging consequences @pavlovsbell cited up there. Yet, we fixate on Trump.
    April_May_Junetom_g
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited February 2018
    This is the part where I plug my favorite political podcast. He stays big picture, so it's worth it listening to any show from the post-Trump era. They're still very relevant. 

    Some good ones:

    306: "Disengaging the Lizard Brain" - about the destabilizing nature of people who "hate" their fellow Americans (June 5, 2016)
    307: "Revenge of the Gangrenous Finger" - about angry people who want to tear the world down, re: Brexit and Trump voters (June 27, 2016)
    315: "War on a whim?" - about War Powers in the US and how Syria and North Korea play into this (April 30, 2017)
    317: "Shades of Grey" - about the difficulty of operating in a world where everyone is outraged all the time (October 27, 2017) <-- @April_May_June

    April_May_June
  • UnderwoodUnderwood Philadelphia, PA
    My states GOP representatives are truly disgusting human beings. That's all I got.
    April_May_June
  • I feel that in some Trumpian dictatorship.the PNW will be the last holdout. You're all welcome here. I live in an obscure area next to some woods, weed is legal and the wine and beer are excellent.
    I feel that in some Trumpian dictatorship.the PNW will be the last holdout. You're all welcome here. I live in an obscure area next to some woods, weed is legal and the wine and beer are excellent.
    You had me at legal weed
    April_May_June
  • @JaimieT - I do listen to Dan Carlin's Commen Sense, but I'm going to listen to the episodes you mentioned again (especially the Shades of Grey one).  Thanks   :)

    @tom_g - I'd give it an 8.  I'm going that high because this isn't the first time he's tried to do this.  And I'm going that low because they didn't let him do it before, so I'm hoping they won't let him do it now.  45 seems to have quite the Authoritarian streak, which isn't good at all.
    JaimieT
  • In part a reply to @JaimieT but also just a comment in general...

    A lot of people are struggling with trying not to freak out over every little thing, but also resisting crazy things from becoming the new norm.

    I'm not saying this from a partisan perspective, I'm only using Obama as an example to highlight how quickly things have changed in just a year....I can think of...50 things? that if said/done by Obama it would have been cataclysmic but now it's just "Trump being Trump, no biggie".

    I think that's left people with a sense of unrest...how do we remind ourselves that none of this is/can be normal without freaking out?  Moreover - how do we not let this craziness become the new normal without brushing up against people's outrage fatigue?



    April_May_JunePhoebes89weeniegirlDaveyMac
  • MrXMrX CO
    edited February 2018
    And of course they're falling in line. Lindsey ... We honor our military on Memorial Day, Veterans Day, July 4, football games, baseball games, etc .... Give me a fucking break.


  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited February 2018
    In part a reply to @JaimieT but also just a comment in general...

    A lot of people are struggling with trying not to freak out over every little thing, but also resisting crazy things from becoming the new norm.

    I'm not saying this from a partisan perspective, I'm only using Obama as an example to highlight how quickly things have changed in just a year....I can think of...50 things? that if said/done by Obama it would have been cataclysmic but now it's just "Trump being Trump, no biggie".

    I think that's left people with a sense of unrest...how do we remind ourselves that none of this is/can be normal without freaking out?  Moreover - how do we not let this craziness become the new normal without brushing up against people's outrage fatigue?


    Obama is what helps me, actually. So much of what he did was cataclysmic. Does anyone here have conservative family? Live in a conservative area? I mean, normal Christmas conversation in my extended family entailed someone claiming Obama wouldn't step down at the end of his term. They didn't come up with that themselves. The news media fed that to them, along with a narrative that made them believe he was capable of that. I tried to calm them (I don't like seeing people in irrational distress) but I think a part of them enjoyed the hysteria.

    Now that "Republicans" are in office, Democrats are the frenzy bait. That's a fact. Democrats are the easy target, and we've observed that we're surrounded by eager archers.

    BTW, I'm not saying Obama is anywhere near as incompetent as Trump. He wasn't not damaging, though. 
    April_May_JuneCretanBull
  • Frakkin TFrakkin T Currently Offline
    edited February 2018
    In part a reply to @JaimieT but also just a comment in general...

    A lot of people are struggling with trying not to freak out over every little thing, but also resisting crazy things from becoming the new norm.

    I'm not saying this from a partisan perspective, I'm only using Obama as an example to highlight how quickly things have changed in just a year....I can think of...50 things? that if said/done by Obama it would have been cataclysmic but now it's just "Trump being Trump, no biggie".

    I think that's left people with a sense of unrest...how do we remind ourselves that none of this is/can be normal without freaking out?  Moreover - how do we not let this craziness become the new normal without brushing up against people's outrage fatigue?



    I think it's up to each of us to regulate (or not) our own emotions and how we process what's going on. It is not up to any of us to tell anyone else how to do so. For me, personally, I try to recognize that this is a marathon, not a sprint, and try not to get too angry or stressed out about any one thing in particular that comes out of his mouth. Of course it's all terrible, and of course I have the priviliege to be a natural-born straight white guy, so a lot of this stuff doesn't directly affect or endanger me, though there are millions of people in Trump's crosshairs everyday.

    Rachel Maddow has this point that she hits often: Watch what they do, not what they say. She covers what they do and almost never gets into the tweets or crazy pronouncements. I find this to be eminently reasonable and pragmatic. There are exceptions, stuff that's so beyond the pale that it has to be confronted, loudly. The "shithole countries" comment and the treason stuff are two of the most obvious examples. 

    I think if anyone is feeling outraged or has a lot of pent-up energy, the best thing to do is to try and get Dems elected this fall. Ask everyone you meet if they're registered to vote. Volunteer to make calls, knock on doors, give money to campaigns. We can carry this Blue Wave energy all the way into control of the house and (maybe) the senate if we stay focused.

    @JaimieT to your point about your relatives' distress over Obama: the big difference is that there is no liberal equivalent to the propaganda machine the right wing has built up since the end of the fairness doctrine. Everything your relatives was worried about came 100% from that machine and was completely manufactured to gin up outrage. It was a racist backlash to the first black president. We only need to look at what Trump says and what his administration is actually doing publicly to see that he's an actual threat. tl;dr: Obama outrage fake, Trump outrage very real. "Both sides" is a fallacy in the Trump era. 
    April_May_JuneCretanBullPhoebes89Dee
  • I'll be the first to admit I did NOT like Bush Jr.  (Or Sr., but I was a kid then, so that doesn't really count).  I grumbled about him at times, laughed at some of his gaffs, and even debated some of his policy with people.  But I wasn't afraid of him.  I never once thought, as much as I disagreed with his policy at times, and felt he was an embarrassment to our country, that he was trying to systematically destroy our government, or that he was Authoritarian.  Or that he could possibly get us all killed in a Nuclear war.  Or saw literal Nazis and White Supremists hold huge, violent rallies in support of him.  I could go on and on, but I won't.
    I am really, really hoping that the Republicans loose their control over our government in the upcoming elections.  Not because I think a D after your name means you're great (there are a few Democrats I'd like to see leave office as well), but because the way things are now can't go on the way they are.  They just can't.
    Frakkin TCretanBullPhoebes89
  • Off the topic at hand for a second, but too funny not to share....

    Trump praised Elon Musk and the success of his rocket launch yesterday, calling it "American ingenuity at its best!"...apparently forgetting that Musk is from a shithole African country.
    FlukesApril_May_JunePhoebes89
  • CretanBullCretanBull Toronto
    edited February 2018
    I'll be the first to admit I did NOT like Bush Jr.  (Or Sr., but I was a kid then, so that doesn't really count).  I grumbled about him at times, laughed at some of his gaffs, and even debated some of his policy with people.  But I wasn't afraid of him.  I never once thought, as much as I disagreed with his policy at times, and felt he was an embarrassment to our country, that he was trying to systematically destroy our government, or that he was Authoritarian.  Or that he could possibly get us all killed in a Nuclear war.  Or saw literal Nazis and White Supremists hold huge, violent rallies in support of him.  I could go on and on, but I won't.
    I am really, really hoping that the Republicans loose their control over our government in the upcoming elections.  Not because I think a D after your name means you're great (there are a few Democrats I'd like to see leave office as well), but because the way things are now can't go on the way they are.  They just can't.
    Once people feel comfortable wearing swastikas in public, we're on the wrong path.
    April_May_June
  • There is something I just can't put my finger on that explains why Elon Musk would warrant Trump's approval.
    Frakkin TApril_May_JuneCretanBull
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    Frakkin T said:
    @JaimieT to your point about your relatives' distress over Obama: the big difference is that there is no liberal equivalent to the propaganda machine the right wing has built up since the end of the fairness doctrine. Everything your relatives was worried about came 100% from that machine and was completely manufactured to gin up outrage. It was a racist backlash to the first black president. We only need to look at what Trump says and what his administration is actually doing publicly to see that he's an actual threat. tl;dr: Obama outrage fake, Trump outrage very real. "Both sides" is a fallacy in the Trump era. 

    Why wouldn't they try that again? They made so much money doing it. And the frenzy about Obama didn't come from nowhere. It was from taking statements out of context, extrapolating beliefs from single sentences. For example: "You didn't build that!" I mean, Jesus Christ, he didn't literally mean 'you didn't build that' people. But he said it, and that was enough. Because "what if he betrayed his hidden secret beliefs!?" FAINT.

    That's why it was important to me to look at the attitude in which Trump said "treasonous," and also how serious it became, or didn't become, in context.

    "Both sides" is a fallacy in the Trump era. - Agreed. The Republicans are demonstrably worse. But I don't want the Democrats to become just as bad. Funny, Bannon bragged (in "Fire and Fury") that he could start a left-wing Breitbart, and I don't think that's crazy talk.
    tom_g
  • I'll be the first to admit I did NOT like Bush Jr.  (Or Sr., but I was a kid then, so that doesn't really count).  I grumbled about him at times, laughed at some of his gaffs, and even debated some of his policy with people.  But I wasn't afraid of him.  I never once thought, as much as I disagreed with his policy at times, and felt he was an embarrassment to our country, that he was trying to systematically destroy our government, or that he was Authoritarian.  Or that he could possibly get us all killed in a Nuclear war.  Or saw literal Nazis and White Supremists hold huge, violent rallies in support of him.  I could go on and on, but I won't.
    I am really, really hoping that the Republicans loose their control over our government in the upcoming elections.  Not because I think a D after your name means you're great (there are a few Democrats I'd like to see leave office as well), but because the way things are now can't go on the way they are.  They just can't.
    Just a reminder that between 110,000 and 500,000 people (it's really hard to get good data) have died as a result of the war in Iraq - a war Bush 2.0 started over a blatant lie. The largest recession since the great depression also happened on Bush's watch (with the understanding that the links between gov't and the economy are tenuous). Yet another depressing part of the Trump administration is the whitewashing of Bush's presidency - before trump, he was probably the worst president of the modern era after Nixon (and maybe even worse than Nixon if your measure is the impact on the average american). 

    Oh, and no, none of the "hysteria" over Obama is remotely comparable to to the "hysteria" over trump. The hysteria over Obama was all bullshit - he was secretly a muslim, he was secretly kenyan, he was a socialist, he was gonna set up death panels, he was gonna set up FEMA death camps, the ACA was gonna make people get abortions, etc, etc, etc. 99% of the hysteria about Trump is shit he has actually done and said - because, per usual, in the US, the truth has a liberal bias. 
    Phoebes89DeeApril_May_June
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