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@Luke You're making a false equivalency there. Accusations of fascism directed towards the Obama administration are pretty clearly untrue, whereas for Trump they are scarily accurate. Godwin's Law has ruined political discourse on the internet in a way; after so many years of people on the left and right calling anyone they didn't like a Nazi to try and win arguments, no one seems to take it seriously when actual Nazis come along. But make no mistake, Trump's administration is well on its way to being an authoritarian, fascist regime. That is not hyperbole - just look at everything that's happened not even a week in to his presidency. He isn't just "a new president that just happens to be Republican and these thin-skinned librulz can't handle it". He is much, much worse than that.Additionally, you came in to what is, let's be honest, a venting thread for a pretty left-leaning community, called everyone hypocrites for daring to be upset with this shitty turn of events, and then got on your high horse for some "oh, look how bad both sides are, I'm so above it all" ranting. The only person I see here pretending to be a "woke, higher level human" is you, to be honest.
(Edit 16/09/18: I shouldn't have led off this argument about the nature of fandom with a subjective opinion about TLJ, but I don't have the energy to keep arguing about Star Wars - please don't respond to this.)
Alright, let's make it quick...Last Jedi was great, the amount of people who hated it is smaller than you think it is, the amount of people who hated it had little to nothing to do with Solo's poor performance, the amount of people who hated it will have little to nothing to do with Episode 9's performance, Kathleen Kennedy should not be fired for Crimes Against Star Wars or whatever and almost certainly won't be unless more films start bombing and critical response drops, and people really need to chill out about this whole Star Wars thing. Fandom has been having this exact same tired, circular argument for eight months now, and I honestly don't know what to say anymore. Positioning the people behind Star Wars as the evil Empire that need to be taken down? Calling for a woman who has overseen four films, three of which have been massive critical and commercial successes, to be sacked because you personally didn't like them? I don't understand it anymore. I mean, I get it, I like the films as they are now, so it's not like I'm going to have much to complain about, but I have to believe I wouldn't be acting like this even if I hated them.
Honestly, I'm just confused at this point. I really want to try and understand the mindset of someone who is so Mad About Star Wars that they're out here making YouTube videos metagaming the best way to take down Kathleen Kennedy and "save" the franchise, but I can't.
Absolutely watch Lost, imo. I may be biased here because I'm a finale-liker, but it's still a classic, and its highs are higher than anything Game of Thrones ever managed. Its lows (for me, certain stretches of seasons 2 and 3) are rough to get through, and it's a 50/50 chance whether you'll love or hate the way the whole thing ends, but the overall experience of watching it is 100% worth it.
rhcoop said:RyanReeseman said:I can’t tell you how hyped I am for all these people to finally shut the fuck up.
I'm excited to watch it because of all of the horrible personal things that happened to the director while it was being made.
It's not hurting anyone, a lot of the footage is already there, I don't see what the issue is.
If it sounds like I'm being ridiculous, check out this brief Twitter thread from January about Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker. https://twitter.com/broderick/status/1212766342664859650 This is the direction all large fandom discourse is headed in: baseless conspiracy theories, tribalism, and harassing stan armies mobilized against directors, writers, actors, producers, journalists, or whoever else they've decided is responsible for them not getting the exact film they wanted. Putting out the Snyder cut only adds fuel to the fire.
@All the Chickens Not sure how you call this thread an echo chamber when literally only one person here is pro-firing. I'd say there's been a pretty wide range of different takes on it, even among the people who are against the firing, or neutral.
Also not sure how you could call out "grandstanding" and then pull the whole "oh, everyone here is so childish, I'm so above it all, and I shan't be commenting on this any further" move. It's the same kind of lazy righteous indignation and intellectual posturing you're supposedly against, so why post it? No one cares about your mic drop.
Hunkulese said:The toxic people are just the loudest. What about all the non-toxic people? There are far, far more of them. Should all decisions only consider the toxic parts of communities?
The best way to deal with toxic people is to ignore them. They shouldn't factor into decision making at all. Most of them are just looking for a negative response anyway. Something positive happening like the Snyder Cut actually coming out isn't actually their goal. They're still going to be toxic everywhere else.
Except the real problem is that what they're doing isn't the worst way to go about it, if you don't account for morality at all. In fact, it's the most effective way to go about it. The toxic groups, even if they're an extreme minority, play far more of a role than you'd think in bringing movements like these to prominence. Social media itself is set up in such a way as to push the toxic voices to the front. They are what websites will report on when talking about the movement, which will result in an inevitable backlash, and then a backlash to the backlash, and so on, bringing more and more notoriety and attention to the original movement.
(The worst part of this cycle? There no good way to break it, since suggesting the alternative - where we "just ignore them", and no one writes articles or Tweets or whatever calling these people out - is more or less telling the targets of their harassment that they should just shut up and take it. As you yourself have said, there's no permanent fix for this problem without completely restructuring the way social media works.)
So in terms of movements like this actually succeeding, you can't write off toxic groups as an insignificant minority. They play an important role, maybe the most important role. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that if you wanted the Snyder cut and are happy you're getting it, you are actively benefiting from the work those people did, whether you like it or not.
Given that a) "You're driving away fans like me with your POLITICS (but I won't say which ones because they would make me look bad)" is one of the most tiresome, pointless complaints on the internet, and b) A.Ron literally created an entire other network where you can debate politics, making it utterly ridiculous for anyone to accuse him of silencing dissenting views, there was never any reason for anyone here to take the OP seriously or in good faith. Cracking some jokes about it is not bullying.
Don't get me wrong, I'll complain about stan culture and parasocial relationships and fandoms attacking people who criticize their faves all day, because I feel very strongly that those things are some of the biggest contributors to the noxious hellscape that modern internet and social media discourse has become. And this forum is just as susceptible to those flaws as any community of the same size, which is something we should be mindful of! But this isn't that - I don't think turning this specific incident into a referendum on the Bald Move community really makes any sense.