Giovanni

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  • 806 - The Iron Throne

    Two Major Major Frustrations:

    -He used to only be able to see the past and present. Now things imply that he saw the future as well. Does that make him an asshole? For "allowing" things to happen. Was he always meant to take the throne?  


    They've always heavily implied that Bran can see the future. Although people adamantly argued against the evidence, for whatever reason.

    --Season 6 episode 6 Bran has his visions, and in those visions they spliced in a clip that was pulled directly from season 6 episode 10 when the Sept was blown up with wildfire. Despite that, some people still argued that it could be from the past, but that cannot be true because we have access to recorded history of Westeros since Kings Landing was created and that has never happened before in Westeros or KL.

    --In both season 4 and season 6, Bran has the vision of the Dragons shadow flying over Kings Landing, and they used that exact same vision clip in season 8 episode 5. At the time that Bran had those visions, people argued that it could have been from the past with any random Targaryen dragon flying over KL back then, but now we know by them using the same clip that it was a vision of the future.

    --Even in season 2, Bran had a vision about the sea flooding and drowning Winterfell and its people, including Ser Rodrik specifically. This was days before the Iron Born (the sea) took over Winterfell and kill Ser Rodrick.


    However, that doesn't at all imply that he could see exactly how everything was going to shake out. If I get a vision of a dragon flying over Kings Landing and even know it's in the future, does that mean that I know all of the context around that vision and every detail about how that came to happen? Not likely.









    I can't explain what happened in the show because even if the DDs established rules I doubt they followed them. I can speak to Bran's powers in the books. Bran and Jojen are both greenseers (https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Greenseer), which does mean they can have visions of the future. These visions are not always clear, and they don't always understand what they see. Second, when Bran become the three eyed Raven he gains access to the Wierwood network, meaning he can see anything that happened in front of a Wierwood tree. These visions of the past are more clear and definitive. 

    I would imagine if the show tried to follow the book rules that Bran could have visions of the future, without knowing or being able to predict the future. So, I agree with you, Bran might have visions of what could happen but know much about why it's happening or what exactly happened to get there. However, I certainly disagree that the show implies that Bran can straight up predict the future. Although, who knows with this show. 
    rkcrawf
  • 806 - The Iron Throne

    Mthomp32 said:
    I doubt the show would have generated nearly the audience and critical acclaim it had had it started off with the quality of the last few seasons. Disappointing people is a tough thing, the D&D’s cut short the end on purpose. I don’t know why they apparently don’t have the sense of ownership for Game of Thrones that the Villigang have for the Breaking Bad world.   I don’t think it’s much of a stretch to think you could’ve found people to do the last few seasons better. 

    Dividing the blame between GRRM and he D&Ds is purely academic. It’s the end product that matters. 

    Have you considered the idea that the fandom is actually honest? That there’s actually a significant quality drop off that people are legitimately complaining about?  Look at Mr. Robot for example, the 2nd season was crapped on but I’m pretty sure the overwhelming majority of fans have climbed back on board after Season 3. The opposite has been happening with GoT 
    Mthomp32 said:
    A ron sounds so sad/angry in this final episode. I genuinely feel bummed listening to it. 

    I’ve noticed those who are really invested in the series (a lot of podcasters and journalists who comment and critique on the show) are totally outside of themselves. Everyone I’ve spoken to about this season (IRL) loves it and felt the conclusion was pretty fitting given that there is absolutely zero source material - meaning the story is inevitably less complex and truncated. But those people don’t geek out as much as me and listen to podcasts etc. I think the a rons and Dave Chen’s and Mallory rubins of the world have lost sight of two things:

    1) it’s not you’re show. Might sound harsh but this show doesn’t belong to the fans. All of the creative decisions that you’re all lambasting were made with the intention to create the best thing they could (Also *they have no books*). Every critique I’ve heard is essentially around how said commentator would have set it up better...than the creators...as Sophie turner said in her ET interview this week: that is disrespectful (and honestly kind of delusional).  

    2) you - the thought leaders in this community - have an outsized impact on the general conversation online. So it’s a bit of a viscous cycle. Joanna Robinson writes 6 articles that come out 30 seconds after the show ends about how the show runners fucked up and then records 3 podcasts about how everyone thinks they fucked up? That’s a bit crazy making as a listened.  

    Ultimately, it used to be really fun to hear you all dissect and critique the show (talk about what you liked and didn’t like) but it’s become suuuuper depressing since the show ran past the books. 

    I want to state that this ending is pretty gorgeous IMO and the breaks in logic and storytelling are easy to forgive for me because (as George stated last week) the creators are missing approximately 3,000 pages of story. 

    That’s a really fair point. I believe the fandom is honest - I feel for the folks who are really sad/disappointed about the ending of the show. I guess I’m just surprised that such devoted fans seemingly overlook the impossible odds that the creators were up against. That said, I don’t think anyone is wrong for hating this ending. It’s just a huge bummer to read/listen to. 

    Also: I think it’s totally fair to hate the end of the series but kind of weird to suggest that anyone knew a better way. There has never been a story that’s been told like this (I actually don’t think Lost, breaking bad, or any original series is actually comparable other than that fact that they were on tv and they were wildly popular).  The closest comparison I can think of is true blood and when they changed show runners the show became a complete joke. In hindsight it’s easy to say they could have done it differently but 3+ years ago when the we’re making decisions about how to finish the series they didn’t have all the info we have today. It just seems really cheap and easy to say f u to the DDs after all is said and done and I feel like that part of the post-show discourse is unproductive and just really a bummer. 
    This isn't rocket science. It's a perfectly valid complaint to say the least two seasons were rushed. Alot of people knew a better way: do a 10 episode season 7 and 10 episode season 8. Give the characters more time to breath. The only people who didn't want to do this were the show runners. HBO wanted more GOT, viewers wanted more GOT, the media wanted more GOT, and our favorite characters who we've been following for 8 years NEEDED more GOT.

     The last two seasons focused far too much on action and far too little on all the things that made the show popular in the first place. Instead of paying attention to the details and trying for an A+ the show runners turned in what they had and decided it was good enough.

     If you disagree that's fine, but I think I have a right to criticize a series I've talked about, followed diligently, and loved for over 20 years.
    Kenz34avcplbbordBloodyTacoOldGriswold
  • 806 - The Iron Throne

    Overall I think the show went out with a whimper. Here are the most egregious things for me:

    • Jon being held captive rather than killed for Dany's murder
    • Tyrion same as above
    • The Unsullied and Dothraki having no input into what the new world looks like
    • Sansa refusing the North following Bran, the SON OF NED STARK!!! I just can't even begin... they won’t bow to any king even their own?! 
    • Why after Sansa's display none of the other rulers refuse Bran as king
    • The lack of emotional impact in any of the scenes, Brienne getting knighted in s8e2 was probably the best scene of the entire season for me... that’s a shame.
    • Jon never explaining to Danny why he couldn't fathom being in the same room with her. Maybe if he didn’t turn her down she wouldn’t have gone super villain
    • Ignoring any type of logistics or logical conclusions, like the Unsullied holding the city but not executing the guy who killed their queen, when in the same episode they execute people who fought against her

    My favorite book series since about 1999, and here we are 20 years later with a bunch of disappointment. I loved the show up until about season 4, but most of it after that is meh. Underwhelming ending for me. 
    ElisaScottTenormanblacksunrise7JTKIIIdarthcaedus1138
  • 805 - The Bells

    Aaron said:
    I really wish people would stop claiming that the show runners just wanted to have it over with.  How do we know what was in their heads?  All evidence is that they and the cast and crew put an astonishing amount of energy and time and effort into creating this show.  All we can really say is whether it worked for us or didn't, and why.
    Umm, it's not speculation. They've come out and said the series will needo  73 hours. I think the one thing everyone can agree on is that a few more GOT episodes wouldn't have hurt anyone. 

    https://www.theringer.com/game-of-thrones/2019/5/9/18537794/game-of-thrones-ending-too-quickly-pacing

    Thrones’ hurry to remove itself from our screens is that almost no one was rooting for a rapid resolution. Viewers don’t want it to end. The media doesn’t want it to end. HBO doesn’t want it to end. Only the showrunners are ready to wrap things up. In an interviewpublished before the final premiere, D&D made it clear that they were the ones insisting on stopping at eight seasons and limiting the last two to a total of 13 episodes. “[HBO] said, ‘We’ll give you the resources to make this what it needs to be,’” Weiss said. Benioff added, “HBO would have been happy for the show to keep going, to have more episodes in the final season.” But the showrunners refused. “We always believed it was about 73 hours, and it will be roughly that,” Benioff continued. “As much as they wanted more, they understood that this is where the story ends
    telephoneofmadnessrustywright4ken hale
  • 805 - The Bells

    Dany has always had an issue with impulse control.I see a lot of people saying, “why would she burn the city? She already won.” Earlier in this same episode she told Jon that she had experienced no love at all since she arrived in Westeros and then basically gets friend zoned by one of the few people who does love her. So she literally said, “Fear,then” and “mercy will not be our weakness anymore.” All that said, in her victory moment staring at the red keep and hearing the bells ringing for “mercy” she’s probably re-playing all the shit she’s been through since arriving in Westeros. All the times she chose “mercy” and lost her own people. And in this moment she must decide again between mercy or fear and obviously she decides fear. She has always been entitled and in her mind probably already sees anyone who stayed loyal to Cersei by even staying in King’s Landing, an enemy. And what does she doe to enemies? Dracarys
    Your making this into a black or white issue. She doesn't need to kill an entire city (including her army) to instill fear into her enemies. She could have done a hundred other things that were a little less extreme. She could have flown up to the Red Keep and roasted Cersei and all the people inside there. She could have executed everyone who stood against her after the battle. There are plenty of ways she could inspired fear without going bat shit crazy villian. Why did she go crazy? Cause the show runners need her too, but for me they didn't do enough to earn it.

    The same way I didn't think Sansa withholding information from Jon in Battle of the Bastards was earned. There are plenty of other examples of them needing the plot to go in a certain direction but not making it believable. 
    darthcaedus1138gjames80