joepinetree

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  • POSITIVE Star Wars Episode 9 SPOILERS Thread

    adampasz said:
    I am rewatching TLJ, I find a lot of the criticism around "ret-conning" the previous film perplexing. Rey being nobody or Rey being the most important person in the galaxy are two sides of the same coin, and they create an interesting duality.  People focus too much on the behind-the-scenes politics of the film production, which is their privilege, but it can spoil the experience of just enjoying the films. I think it is also unreasonable to expect that a prominent character in one film needs to be prominent in the next film. Sometimes there is nothing else to say with a character, and the focus can shift. Again, maybe there are behind-the-scenes explanations for these choices... as a viewer, I kinda don't care.

    I just finished listening to The Watch podcast's review, and a lot of their criticism centered around incoherent narrative choices, like killing Chewie but bringing him back 6 minutes later. To me, this is quintessential Star Wars story-telling in the Saturday Matinee serial mode. There's always been a fundamental tension in these films, where The Heroes Journey provides structure to a series of whimsical episodes. (Clearly Empire got this balance the best, but it is the format of all the films.)  I like when these movies go off on tangents that don't necessarily fit expectations of where the narrative should go.  It keeps them entertaining and surprising, and the tangents offset the more structured, formulaic aspects of the narrative. People complain about the Ewok stuff in RotJ -- and it was not a perfectly executed sequence -- but I think there was a method to the madness of using them counter-balance the gravity of the final confrontation between Luke, Vader and the Emperor. The 3rd act of Rise of Skywalker probably could have used a little more of something unexpected along those lines...
    The watch's criticism makes absolutely no sense given their appreciation of tlj.  The things they say about chewies fake out death could be said exactly in the same format about Leia's death in tlj, where a poignant moment is reversed by something we had never seen or been informed of before. I think a lot of the critical panning of ROS is reactionary to what happened in TLJ. Critics either not wanting to be caught liking something the public didnt or critics with a grudge because of the backlash against TLJ.

    Not that people cant dislike either. I disliked tlj. But every single bit of criticism the watch guys make of ROS applies just as equally to TLJ. At one point they complain about the boundlessness of rey's power, but tlj's conclusion includes a cross galaxy astral projection of luke.
    adampasz
  • Star Wars Episode IX The Rise of Skywalker *SPOILER DISCUSSION*

    I think even if it had a good process, the odds were stacked against this trilogy living up to potential. Hamill, Fisher and Ford are all in their late 60s, early 70s. The conclusion to the Skywalker saga that people would want would feature the three more prominently, but there's no way a major studio would do that. What the more dedicated fandom would want was Luke and Mara fighting Joruus Cbaoth or something similar, which can't be due to age.

    So this was going to be a story of a hand off. Which is where I guess the bad process part comes in. And it's where for me TLJ simply ruined this trilogy for me. I really wish Rian Johnson had had the strength of his convictions. But to me the whole thing with first introducing the intergalactic elite who profits from war no matter who is in charge and who has literal child slaves, and then having our heroes free the non-horses and ignore all of that made it clear that they had no direction in mind.
    I think TLJ is a brilliant pivot point that any great writer could have run with, but my one criticism has remained throughout- Kylo and Rey should have joined forces at the end of that movie. THAT should have been the cliffhanger leading into this last movie. I don’t know if that was an RJ thing or a Disney thing, but a final conflict between Kylo/Rey and the FO/Resistance is immeasurably more interesting than what we got. 

    That, too. It makes no sense for Rey, who thought the Jedi were a legend a couple of days ago, who had a terrible introduction to jedis via grumpy Luke, would at the end reject someone she had a connection with for the Jedi.
    JaimieTseauxphieweeniegirl
  • Star Wars Episode IX The Rise of Skywalker *SPOILER DISCUSSION*

    I think even if it had a good process, the odds were stacked against this trilogy living up to potential. Hamill, Fisher and Ford are all in their late 60s, early 70s. The conclusion to the Skywalker saga that people would want would feature the three more prominently, but there's no way a major studio would do that. What the more dedicated fandom would want was Luke and Mara fighting Joruus Cbaoth or something similar, which can't be due to age.

    So this was going to be a story of a hand off. Which is where I guess the bad process part comes in. And it's where for me TLJ simply ruined this trilogy for me. I really wish Rian Johnson had had the strength of his convictions. But to me the whole thing with first introducing the intergalactic elite who profits from war no matter who is in charge and who has literal child slaves, and then having our heroes free the non-horses and ignore all of that made it clear that they had no direction in mind.
    RyanReeseman
  • Star Wars Episode IX The Rise of Skywalker *SPOILER DISCUSSION*

    This is not a great movie. It is not a terrible movie either. It is certainly better than 2 of the prequels.

    There's two ways you can go with a project like this. You either really play up the nostalgia factor (think the Force Awakens, AHS 1984, etc) or you use it to go into a completely new direction (think the recent Watchmen, the stuff subverting super hero expectations, like the Boys). I didn't hate the last jedi, but I didn't like it. Not because it tried something new, but because it pulled back at the last second and reset everything. Get Kylo and Rey together, subvert expectations, go a new direction, say fuck you to the resistance and the first order, I'd love it. But it pointed a bunch of stuff (war merchants profiting from both sides, etc) and took it nowhere.

    So I am fine with this movie. It over-corrects on the nostalgia part, but, honestly, that is what star wars is. Ultimately I would have preferred something like the Thrawn trilogy, but this was fine.

    As for "middle aged person who can't let go of their childhood," I mean, that is what star wars is.

    And honestly, it's not a bad thing. The first movie I ever remember watching was A New Hope when I was 4 with my dad, and I thought Luke was a nickname for George Lucas, because when it said a "a movie by George Lucas" my little 4 year old brain couldn't understand what a director was. The last time I went to the theaters with my dad before he died was to watch episode 3. Today's movie, if over indulgent and sometimes over the top, still triggered that part of my brain that reminded me of watching those movies with my dad. Which is more than most movies make me feel. And if it's not going to blow up the conventions of the genre, (and TLJ didn't either), that is pretty good.




    Cory
  • Edge of democracy

    Just listened to the recent edge of democracy review, and felt that i should clarify a couple of things:
    - there's no evidence and no charge that Dilma dos anything to enrich herself.
    - Lula was convicted and arrested for supposedly accepting an apartment as bribes, but the major news out of Brazil right now is that the judge who sentenced him was in cahoots with the prosecution and protected opposition politicians. Unfortunately the story broke after this documentary was ready.
    https://theintercept.com/2019/06/17/brazil-sergio-moro-lula-operation-car-wash/

    As a small sample of the story. The intercept days that their files are larger than Snowden's

    The corruption, which was undeniable, was the bribing of opposition to vote for certain laws. So it was less personal enrichment and more of that.

    As an aside, it is important to note that a lot of that corruption is legal in the US. Lula's apartment thing, for example, is essentially the same as Scott Pruitt renting a lobbyist apartment in DC for 50 bucks a month.

    mvcpacheco