djcaudle01

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  • Episode 5 Olive Branch

     So after listening to the spoiler lore podcast I think Jim and A.Ron did an excellent job of laying out what the true disconnect is between those of us who were more or less happy with S8E5 and those who were not. In a nutshell it’s not about Dany going mad or even that it was not foreshadowed; correct me if this is wrong but it is really all about why she would destroy the population of Kings Landing as well as its infrastructure after she had won.

    So if that explains what is so frustrating to those who are unhappy with S8E5 (at least for the most part)  then I have to say that is understandable, I think even those of us who love the episode would say that the writing was shaky at best.

    Coming from the other side, I tried to determine what has not been said (at least in depth) that is the simplest answer to what happened other than just “she went crazy”...As mentioned above it is definitely confusing as to why she would snap after the bells,  so sticking with the idea of keeping things simple, occam‘s razor would be a good theory to use to examine the point from a objective view. That being said, let’s examine what’s true about Dany’s state of mind at the time the bells rang:

    1) She has lost all faith in Tyrion
    2) Her best friend and most trusted advisor was just savagely murdered.
    3) She has lost everyone who she truly knows except Greyworm and he was the boyfriend of #2 so...
    4) Being that her whole life her first reaction is most always to burn whoever or whatever is in her way, she now has no one to talk her off that ledge except Greyworm and *see #3
    5)Ever since “A Golden Crown” She has believed she is the rightful heir to the iron throne, now she has found out that the one person who the people would possibly choose over her for that position also has the rightful lineage and he just dumped her..
    6) Sansa, who is potentially the second most powerful person in Westeros right now can’t stand her and is playing mind games with Tyrion to oust her as queen

    MOST IMPORTANTLY:   Everything that has happened since she set foot in Westeros has gone wrong in terms of her conquest for the iron throne.  Now with everyone closest to her dead, does she really believe that those bells ringing which Tyrion btw and who she no longer trusts being the one told her, how then can she possibly believe that the this after all of his other gambits is going to be so easy as to just walk in and accept surrender, and truthfully she would be correct because one little thing we fail to remember is that Cercei did not actually give that order for the ringing bells! 

    So I believe for those of us who don’t have a problem with this, it actually seems downright stupid of her to believe those bells are anything other than one more huge backstabbing failure by Tyrion...

    I realize this is not a perfect solution but at this point I hope both sides can stop saying the other side does not have reason to believe what they believe...

    PEACE IN WESTEROS 
    awookiee
  • 805 - The Bells

    Good take, it’s sort of like how lots of people talk about White, Brown and Black issues in the GoT world (like White Privilege or Slavery) even though 99% of slavery in this world is white on white, brown on brown, etc...you can’t say there is a problem with “white savior syndrome” when Dany conquered Yunkai because they’ve probably never seen a white person and they don’t live in a world where Africans were sold and shipped across the sea for 400 years of enslavment to eventually be freed and now living through a changing social landscape of a melting pot country...you just can’t apply modern Western social terminology dealing with racial studies in our world with Esos and Westeros.
    This is sarcasm, right?
    No, but I think maybe a clarification:  I’m speaking about “in show commentary” here, you can and should absolutely make COMPARISONS with the show’s  social and literary motifs...my point is the idea that someone living in Westeros or Esos would be applying social motifs from 2019 America to whatever date Slavery’s Bay is projecting and silly...it would be as if someone said “can’t wait for Dany to take over, ever since Hilary lost we have been pining for a woman’s rule!”

    So back to Ken Hale’s comment, biblical symbolism is fine for us to make analogies and ponderences but not within the direct context of the show...

    Does that make more sense?, I should have clarified that in the original lol 
    I guess I don't understand what you mean "in show commentary." Is someone quoting Revelations in the show? I don't know if this an allusion to the "pale horse", and if it is, that it's successful, but that doesn't mean allusions don't have merit.

    It's fine to use a kind of cultural relativism to define the world and characters, but ultimately this is "art" being consumed in our world and the creators have to at least try to be conscious of how it will be interpreted. Just like they're aware of our cultural context when they're trying to evoke something with a white horse.

    The show doesn't really mirror African Slavery in North America, but it certainly evokes images of a "white savior." So if you're saying we should draw parallels ourselves, I don't see your issue.
    At the core of what we’re talking about is the idea that I don’t personally see Danny as a “white” person in the sense that we have “white” culture.   Yes, Danny’s skin color is white but she does not come from white culture in the same sense that we recognize it in our world so making comparisons based on skin color, already being subjective and difficult to nail down in the world we live in is next to impossible to do in a fictional world with a totally different historical context...

    That’s what I mean by in show comparisons, it’s perfectly fine to compare things outside of the show and make analogies but you can’t bring our culture into that show and start making judgments, there is no foundation for it because there is no historical context

    I guess I fundamentally disagree that a work is absolved from judgement because it's fiction. Fiction isn't created in a vacuum. You can judge the portrayal of Dany as a "white savior" like you can judge an allusion to Revelations or even a meta-reference like a Gendry rowing joke.
    We can disagree fo sure but I didn’t say a work is absolved from judgement because it’s fiction...I said you can’t judge a fictional universe using historical precedent from a totally different universe...

    To be honest I’m surprised this is even controversial, if you have two completely different worlds with completely different histories, then you can’t cross cross judgments based on those histories, how is this even debatable...

    If “white” culture has never oppressed “colored” people in Westeros, then how can we then use terminology born of that oppression that is rampant in our culture to make judgements on Westeros? It’s just silly
    telephoneofmadness
  • 805 - The Bells

    Good take, it’s sort of like how lots of people talk about White, Brown and Black issues in the GoT world (like White Privilege or Slavery) even though 99% of slavery in this world is white on white, brown on brown, etc...you can’t say there is a problem with “white savior syndrome” when Dany conquered Yunkai because they’ve probably never seen a white person and they don’t live in a world where Africans were sold and shipped across the sea for 400 years of enslavment to eventually be freed and now living through a changing social landscape of a melting pot country...you just can’t apply modern Western social terminology dealing with racial studies in our world with Esos and Westeros.
    This is sarcasm, right?
    No, but I think maybe a clarification:  I’m speaking about “in show commentary” here, you can and should absolutely make COMPARISONS with the show’s  social and literary motifs...my point is the idea that someone living in Westeros or Esos would be applying social motifs from 2019 America to whatever date Slavery’s Bay is projecting and silly...it would be as if someone said “can’t wait for Dany to take over, ever since Hilary lost we have been pining for a woman’s rule!”

    So back to Ken Hale’s comment, biblical symbolism is fine for us to make analogies and ponderences but not within the direct context of the show...

    Does that make more sense?, I should have clarified that in the original lol 
    I guess I don't understand what you mean "in show commentary." Is someone quoting Revelations in the show? I don't know if this an allusion to the "pale horse", and if it is, that it's successful, but that doesn't mean allusions don't have merit.

    It's fine to use a kind of cultural relativism to define the world and characters, but ultimately this is "art" being consumed in our world and the creators have to at least try to be conscious of how it will be interpreted. Just like they're aware of our cultural context when they're trying to evoke something with a white horse.

    The show doesn't really mirror African Slavery in North America, but it certainly evokes images of a "white savior." So if you're saying we should draw parallels ourselves, I don't see your issue.
    At the core of what we’re talking about is the idea that I don’t personally see Danny as a “white” person in the sense that we have “white” culture.   Yes, Danny’s skin color is white but she does not come from white culture in the same sense that we recognize it in our world so making comparisons based on skin color, already being subjective and difficult to nail down in the world we live in is next to impossible to do in a fictional world with a totally different historical context...

    That’s what I mean by in show comparisons, it’s perfectly fine to compare things outside of the show and make analogies but you can’t bring our culture into that show and start making judgments, there is no foundation for it because there is no historical context

    telephoneofmadness
  • 805 - The Bells

    chrisk said:
    Just gonna say I totally see Jon taking the throne because he doesn’t trust anyone  who wants the job to do it right and justly. 

    It’s VERY Jon to do something he doesn’t want to do out of a sense of duty. 
    Agreed. Jim's point that Jon has constantly been refusing the throne is in regards to Dany. Clearly he sees she must be dealt with and if she's gone, I can see him feeling honor bound by his sense of duty to take the throne.

    BUT a small part of me wouldn't be surprised if at the end he asks these two if there is room for one more on that sled...ha 
    What’s A.Ron drinking? And when did he die his hair red?
    MurderbearmylifeaskirkJames
  • Supporters of the Episode 805 The Bells, I have some questions.

    Anominal said:
    It’s getting to the point where if you support episode 5, people who don’t like the episode want you to explain yourself in the same vein as if you voted for Trump...time to chill out on both sides 
    So we can have threads asking to explain why people dislike the episode, but can't ask what people saw in this episode and what they're taking with them into the finale? I don't even think that second part has even been talked about much in any of the discussions. 
    You asked 26 questions that speak to the mind and thought process of another human being who lives in another place that’s isn’t real and neither is she...are supporters of the episode supposed to take that seriously?

     Because if it was meant seriously and not as another sarcastic slant towards people who just enjoy the show then I honestly and un-sarcastically apologize, for real, there has been so much personal attacking going on (on both sides as well as myself I’m sure) that it would be easy to mistake an unironically asked question for a sarcastic one...so seriously if it wasn’t meant in jest then mea culpa  
    I think his comment that immediately followed his main post sums up what he means and wants from this post...

    "I don’t necessarily expect that to be answered point by point. It was a brain dump of questions. It mostly boils down to that end. What was she thinking in that exact moment the bells were ringing, and she looks out at the rooftops and keep, and we see her face and then commits to destroying the city. And what is her state of mind coming into the finale." 


    “What is her state of mind coming into the finale”...Damn what a question to ponder.... if I had to guess it would be one word....Resolved 
    Anominal