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  • Coronavirus / COVID-19

    I think we're closer to agreeing than we seem lol. 

    The government should not mandate vaccines with criminal or monetary penalties. Ever. I think forced medical care is far too easy to abuse, even if it starts with very good intentions.

    However, it's perfectly fine (and I think good) for schools to require vaccines, for jobs (gov't or otherwise) to require vaccines, for stores to require vaccines, venues, amusement parks, boats, trains, planes, etc. I think it's also fine for a government to require proof of vaccine for any non-citizen trying to enter the country. Agree? 
  • Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Hatorian said:
    so shouldn’t that be the same for all of us? None of us here are nurses or doctors. Maybe we should stop acting like we’re experts on vaccines now. 

    But.....every* actual expert says to get vaccinated. I'm not asking people to listen to me. I don't think anyone here is. I'm asking them to listen to the experts. 

    *I'm sure there's some epidemiologist out there who has been saying that the vaccines are bad an/or COVID is no big deal (like the Dr. in Sweden who initially went for the "isolate the vulnerable, herd immunity for the rest" when COVID first started, although that didn't actually work very well and I think he admitted it), just like there are some climate scientists who claim climate change isn't real. When the number is north of 99% of experts agreeing on something, though, I'm fine saying it's everyone. 
  • Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Hatorian said:

    I’m saying you have to give someone an option when it comes to medical things that are not guaranteed our close to it.

    I think this is where we disagree. The vaccines are essentially guaranteed to be safe and guaranteed to prevent thousands, or tens of thousands, of deaths, not just from not transmitting COVID but also from not overstraining the medical system causing overworked staff to make mistakes or taking up too much ICU space. And as I said, I'm not really for the government mandating the vaccines in any way with criminal penalties - I don't think that's a good road to start down. However I'm 100% fine with it being increasingly difficult to participate in society if you aren't vaccinated. The rest of society shouldn't have to tolerate typhoid Marys. 

    And the reason you can't do medical experiments on someone without their consent is that it could be dangerous in a way we don't know (although with modern techniques is extremely rare that something makes it to human trials that is severely dangerous, end even more rare that it makes it to large scale trials), not because people have some fundamental right to never have to do anything medical while still participating in society. And these vaccines have gone through the trials, so there's no experimentation left to be done as to safety, only as to efficacy, and it would have been impossible to test for the delta variant since it didn't exist. 

    So, no, when it's proven that something is safe, will save lives (not 100% of lives to be fair, but nothing does), and is trivial to get for the vast majority of people, yeah, I'm fine with not giving people the option as to whether or not to get it if they want to participate in society. We do this all the time! You wanna drive, you gotta get a license. You wanna fly, you gotta get screened. You wanna go eat at a restaurant, work in an office with a bunch of other people, or go to Disney World while a dangerous pandemic is on the loose? I'm fine with saying you gotta be vaccinated. 

    And the government IS requiring it for the military (and all federal employees IIRC). If you refuse it you'll probably get a less than honorable discharge from the military or be fired from your job. Is that unfair? 
  • Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Hatorian said:
    To get back on covid. Recent news says phizer is only 40% effective against Delta in terms of catching it.

    you cannot force people to take something for the benefit of society if it’s a 50/50 shot they are still going to get people killed. 

    Yes, its 99% effective against severe illness and death. But that’s only a reason to get it for yourself. 
    That's about on par with the flu vaccine, and we still recommend everyone get that to protect the vulnerable. 

    Plus, taking the Delta variants R value from 7 to 10 (where most estimated put it) to 3.5-5 will definitely save lives, so it's still going to save a lot of lives, especially when compared to the single-digit deaths in the US caused by the vaccines. And that assumes that people who are vaccinated are contagious for as long, which seems to not be the case, so it's probably reducing the R value even more than that. 

    And we force people to do stuff that saves lives less than 50% of the time all the time. I have to say "well, since this mandate will only save 10,000 people instead of 20,000 people, we probably shouldn't bother" is a bizarre take. 
  • Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Yeah I'm not gonna disagree that no government is even close to perfect, or that the US government is incredibly rigged (thanks first past the post!) but since the options tend to be fix the government you have or have a violent revolution, and there hasn't really been a violent revolution that has worked out well for the country in, like, a century, I don't know what the better solution is than try to fix what we have.