- Atlanta, GA
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CretanBull said:JaimieT said:
I don't think it's poorly argued at all. I think it's well argued. I think some of the punishments would be difficult to implement, but maybe that's what you mean, that there should be arguments about how to implement the punishments... (Ah, I just read your last paragraph. It sounds like you think the argument is superfluous, not that it's poorly done.)
"...a lot of the problems that she points to aren't really about 'men' generally..." - She's talking about how men are the only cause of unwanted pregnancies, and how it would be more rational for the pro-life movement to push for legislation on sperm. I think it's a great idea to push for punishment for the irresponsible treatment of women's bodies and lives, and in some cases, abortions. It might be the thing necessary to get pro-life men to take a look in the mirror.Her position doesn't address the underlying problems, it just shifts blame in hopes that re-contextualizing the problem will make men look at the issue differently. The argument that she's presenting isn't her end goal, it's a stepping-stone argument meant to lead us to where she ultimately wants us to go.My issue with that is that she's accepting at face value that power and decision making are the domain of men. Broken down, her argument is "things are the way they are because men have made decisions that burden us with responsibility for the repercussions of sex. If we want things to change, we need shift the burden back to them so that men can make new decisions that don't burden us."My point is twofold, don't make it about men broadly - you'll lose allies - make it about the puritanical people (mostly men) who think that it's ok for them to impose their religious views on women (that's the ultimate root of the problem). Also, reject the construct that these people have the right to make decisions about your body...don't look for fairness by shifting the responsibility back on those men in hopes that they'll make empathetic choices - demand the right to make your own decisions.
Well we've tried that for a long time and it isn't changing any minds.
"You'll lose allies"? That's rich. Again, as if we should be concerned about all of this being palatable to men...
Pro-lifers are driven by one thing: ending murder. Giving them a more effective way to do that is a great idea.