OITNB - Season 4 Episode 13

Cecily

Finale Episode!

Ep. 13: "Toast Can't Ever be Bread Again"

Nathan

Woah. What a season.

What a cliffhanger. 

Daya, I'll back you either way.

I wish they hadn't spent so much time dealing with Alex and Piper and their struggles in the Finale, but it didn't bother me too much. Pens really bothered me going back to Raper McDonuts. 

Red Hair out of nowhere!

I love that this show has the most complex characters. Everyone is good and bad, everyone is informed by their past, and people don't forget shit. Sure, the nazi leader is crazy, but she's learning to empathise. Meanwhile, Caputo can talk big about wanting to do good, but is just as bad as his executives. Poussey is gone and no one cares enough to tell her father until the last fucking minute. 

Definitely Top 10 2016 (atm)

At least Sophia is back. I'm looking forward to the Gloria/Sophia roadshow, and Judy King will probably have to take responsibility for that gun to save everyone the extra time.

And next season can we get more Watson? It's been ages since she led a plotline more than just being a supporting character, and she's great.

iMatty94

Amazing season. Explosive finale and explosive last 10 mins m. Litchfield had gone down the drain. The people in charge of the prison dealt with the death terribly. Man oh man I hated those press guys. I'm so ready for a. Crazy prison riot in the next seasons premier.

NikkiP

Damn.

amyja89

Well god DAYUM. What a season, certainly makes up for the forgettable third season!

This show hasn't been great at giving us really strong villains, perhaps with the exception of Vee, but the nuance of Piscatella was amazingly well done and had my blood boiling with rage! He doesn't do anything particularly classical 'evil', he doesn't rape inmates (although there was a hint of wrong doing in men's max-security, no?), he doesn't beat anybody, he is almost like the High Sparrow in Game Of Thrones, so incredibly pious and control mad that the way he deals with situations makes you livid with rage. Some of the other guards, Humps in particular, felt almost too comically evil to make a real impact on me, but the subtle villainy of Piscatella, especially after I thought he was going to be a firm but fair guy in the first few episodes, really made an impact! That face when he was chewing the gum over Poussey's corpse, I've NEVER WANTED TO PUNCH ANYBODY HARDER!

For my personal tastes, this darker direction for the series is perfect, and I think the writers got it spot on by having most of the comic relief come from Judy King's plotlines, a character who wasn't experiencing the brunt of the horrible shit in the jail, it makes the humour more contextually believable when it's coming from a person who isn't being continually downtrodden by the system and by other inmates. Her threesome with Luscheck and Yoga Jones had me balling with laughter!

A special mention also for Yael Stone as Morello. It's easy to forget that the character is batshit crazy from episode to episode when she is just chilling with the girls, but those scenes when she goes in to overdrive about her hubby and her sister, you can really see the mania start to creep in to her eyes, it was actually pretty scary!

Also, fuck the system, even though the show is fictional, it was giving me the same kind of social injustice feels that Making A Murderer gave me.

Suzanne's backstory broke me, I always knew it was going to be something like that ever since she was told she couldn't attend the open day (last series?) because children would be there, but seeing it play out on screen was really tough.

Still intrigued to discover more about Kukudio, we never got an expansion on her backstory, but it must have been something major from the way that Caputo reacted when her opened her file after they get her back from the woods, and also because o the fact that she was one of the prisoners called in for questioning when they found the guard.

Anyway, I'll stop now, but suffice to say, I love love love love LOVED this season!

kingbee67

You know what is worse than our criminal justice system? Criminals!

In the song that opens the show the singer talks about the faces and the people who are in jail as lost souls, but "what about the" victims?

In the past two weeks I've have seen the plight of a victim of a simple crime.and what it has done to his family. So I really don't feel too sorry for criminals, who have been treated poorly. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. I know there are people out there who don't belong in prison but there a lot who do.

I do like the show but I disagree with the social message they try to push. I don't like that some characters are made out to be cartoonish buffoons. I would hate to be charged with these people day in and day out.

As far as the season goes I thought it was better than last season. There seemed to be more humor in the start to middle. At the end they ramped up the drama and I found that well done. Suzanne's story was great and so sad. I liked some of Lori Petty's story, but the one guy and his mother thing could have been left out. He has issues with women, I get it. The Girls messing with Piper seemed more scary than a forced brand on her arm. The end with the girl with the gun seemed added on just to keep her in the show now that her mom baby and baby daddy have left. The transgender guy part was to slow moving lost interest in her this season.

DancesWithWookies

Wow.

That was an amazing season. Solid 10/10 considering that last season was such a disappointment.

Can't wait to see how the prison riot turns out. 

And RIP Poussey, great character but I feel they gave her a great send off.

And fuck Piscatella.

Murderbear

Wow. I don't know what it is about this show but it hits me to my very core. I'm not embarrassed to admit if a show or movie makes me tear up a bit but this show can just wreck me. After what happened to Poussey and we got to hear Norma singing to Soho, what a beautiful, touching moment. I was devastated.

The writing isn't always 100% great but these actresses and actors just make everything work so well. My only nitpick in that regard is Nikki. She's just a tad too over the top for me.

Poussey's send off was very nice. Always been one of my favorites and it sucks to lose her. I do have to say, a tad bit unbelievable her and Bayley passed each other in the streets of New York City. I get what they're going for but come on.

Well damn. I shouldn't have plowed through this so quickly! Sucks that the season is done!

DancesWithWookies

Murderbear said:

I do have to say, a tad bit unbelievable her and Bayley passed each other in the streets of New York City. I get what they're going for but come on.  

I don't think its that unbelievable. They probably didn't even remember. Strange stuff happens every day.

Melia004

Compliments to OitnB for really, really getting correct the friends in grief. I was literally laughing then crying then angry then crying then laughing in a few minutes' time. That final fade-to-orange is stuck in my head hours later; the Shawshank levels of melancholy upon seeing a beaming Poussey one last time is going to take a while to fade.

DStar

So thrilled that JK and her team really brought it this season. So many unexpected moments (red hair!), great character development (Penn is actually pretty self reflective when she puts her mind to it, Soso gets a clue, Pipes gets schooled on what it means to be a real "Don"), and some full on tackling of some real issues that we as a country don't spend enough time discussing (i.e. people in prison are, yes - actually people, and that everyone deserves access to tampons). I'm really appreciating the journey this show is taking us on.

NikkiP

I was worried last season about the best of OITNB possibly being behind us, but the stories were well crafted this year, it built on facts we learned in previous seasons, and all the characters acted in character even if their personalities were changed by an event. I was very impressed. They came back very strong.

Murderbear

I'm really curious how the real Piper feels about her TV counterpart being branded with a swastika and smoking crack.

Dee

This show is so good at social commentary and presenting the notion that everyone has a story, and there are so many complicated things that lead people to where they end up. Yes, there are those who are just opportunistic criminals, but maybe even a lot of those wouldn't be that way if their lives had begun differently. (And then there are those who are opportunistic authoritarians.) In my work I speak to a lot of people who spend much of their lives being looked down on because of their circumstances and it sickens me. I think that's one of the reasons this show resonates with me so much.

Caputo disappointed me - it's nice that he went off book and supported the guard - who was pretty much the only genuinely decent one - but I wish he'd said more in his speech about the innocence of Poussey (who is the actual victim here) and the delay caused by the company trying to spin the story. But as much as he cares about the women being looked after, he is still self-serving.

I hope this isn't the last we see of Healy. And I really hope "Linda the C Word" gets her comeuppance next season.

katethefarmer

amyja89 said:

 he doesn't beat anybody, he is almost like the High Sparrow in Game Of Thrones

This x1000. Perfect comparison. 

lubbockbuckeye

SO how is this cliff hanger any differnt than the Walking Dead?? Arent we done with cliff hangers??

Dummy

lubbockbuckeye said:

SO how is this cliff hanger any differnt than the Walking Dead?? Arent we done with cliff hangers??

The biggest difference is being given all the information.  You have seen everything that has happened and can speculate off that information. TWD left out a major piece of information and makes speculating on the future constricting. 

Melia004

lubbockbuckeye said:

SO how is this cliff hanger any differnt than the Walking Dead?? Arent we done with cliff hangers??

Other differences: OitnB actually manages a large cast, actually thinks through plot lines, actually leaves me wanting more, actually manages to fix past mistakes...shall I go on?

Ashley

I really didn't enjoy this season very much. I know my "sensitivity" as a Black woman greatly plays into it, but it was extremely grating to have to sit through so many racially charged plots, and then the ending was just... exhausting. I want to commend them for invoking Eric Garner's death, for referencing Sandra Bland, but it really fell apart for me in the way they wrote it. Framing Poussey's death as an accident (and I don't mean Caputo doing so - that was very realistic, but the show literally having Bayley not meaning to do it), and involving Suzanne, it was just very frustrating. I know they wanted to add nuance, but in my opinion, there's nothing gray about Black people being killed in police custody. They took the racism out of something that is inherently racist, and put a large part of the blame on the company instead of just having one of their many shitty COs be the one involved. Now I'm supposed to also feel sorry for the innocent one whose life could be ruined because he didn't mean to do it. Whatever. I get what they were trying to do, but I think they failed, and only made it more offensive for me. Also, Poussey was my favorite character, so it was like an extra stab in the back, lol.

I'm gonna come back next year, because I still think it's a good show, and I love its diversity, but I'm a lot less willing to sit through another season of what feels like trauma porn.

Dee

@Ashley, your comment is interesting because when I (white Australian) watched the final episode I was really impressed with it, and then when I was reading Tumblr later, tons of black people were angry about it, which made me a bit surprised and caused me to rethink. I still really liked what they did, but I also think you (and others) have made excellent points about how this storyline is sanitising the very serious issue of black people being murdered by authority figures with no repercussions by making it a "tragic accident", when the reality is that's not what's happening in the real world.

Black Tumblr has also pointed out many times that all the writers are white, which is surprising and disappointing for a show that has such a diverse cast. So I guess maybe they are writing from that perspective, and they might need some people of colour on the writing team to give some more realistic input.

Melia004

It is definitely odd that they made such a clear point that most of the guards were racist (the pat downs of all the darker women, for example) and then had the "innocent" dumbass white dude somehow not realize he was crushing the tiny person underneath him.

Ashley

@Dee The lack of diversity in the writer's room is a whole other can of worms, because I don't even understand how a show that attempts to be socially conscious can have this many Black and Latina characters without a single one writing for them. But yes, it's things like this, where subtleties are key, they really could've benefited from having a Black voice. Like having Taystee refer to Poussey's death as murder, when the show decided to depict it as an accident, it trivializes the Black Lives Matter movement to an audience that probably largely thinks it's bullshit anyway. Just extremely frustrating.

davemcb

I know that Fox News isn't the peak of journalism but I saw through one of their affiliates in Australia that they have mentioned that veterans associations have begun speaking out about the way the war veterans were depicted in the season. Whilst I agree with some of the views as I think (talked about on previous threads) the writing was horrible regarding these guards but I don't agree that actual veterans will struggle getting jobs because this show is very popular.

It will be interesting to see how the writing room will react in the next season 

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2016/07/15/orange-is-new-black-criticized-for-portrayal-veterans.html ;

dochielomn

So my wife and I just finished watching this season and 1 thing that I had an issue with for the whole season is why the drug lord guy (forget his name but Alex's old boss who sent the hitman to kill her) never followed up with "where did my hitman go?".  His hitman is able to work his way into the prison and tells the boss that he killed Alex but then goes AWOL.  Surely, a savy guy would have noticed that his hitman never came back from the job and hasn't heard from him in awhile.  I'm guessing at least a month or 2 must have passed during the season and so the drug lord guy would have at least started to snoop around or sent someone into the prison to find out if the hitman is still posing as a guard there or what happened to him.  Just thought that was something that should have been addressed along the way. 

Like everyone else, I was very sad to see Poussey killed off and sad to see what happened with Suzanne.  It will be interesting to see what happens with the prison riot next season and what happens to the guards. 

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awturbosp

This is my first season listening to the OITNB podcast and that really is only because of how well I think Jim and A.Ron cover Westworld and Game of Thrones.  I have finished watching the season but just finished the Episode 404-406 podcast and honestly don't know if I 'll come back to the show or this podcast.  

I value social commentary in pop culture.  It's another way to get everyone talking.  I also appreciate the way Jim and A.Ron typically cover tough issues.  

I'll start with the show.  Through the vast majority of the season it just came across as preachy.  I am anti privatized corrections and this show had me tired of hearing about it with the way it just beat you over the head with it.  The best topic that I thought that they covered was Poussey's death and Caputo's position afterward.  I thought that they did a good job of trying to portray the nuances of each side.  The anger from the African American prisoners and the position that Caputo is put in.

Where the show loses me is in its portrayal of veterans.  They are all portrayed as cruel and even murderers.  The only guards that are depicted as good are the ones that were there before.  Where is outrage?  There isn't any because supporting the troops is a tag line and not something that most Americans really believe.  As the problem with veteran suicide, unemployment, and homelessness continues to be on the rise, it is a problem that the left doesn't care about.  I don't get how you write a show whose purpose seems almost solely to be to address social issues then overtly attack a group like that.  

Where's A.Ron's outrage or questioning of it?  He may in later episodes but I may not get that far in the podcast.  In the Episode 404-406 podcast that I just listened to he and Pi'ilani discussed a variety of the social issues in the episode and many that weren't including the fact that "Hawaiian" pizza is called Hawaiian because it has pineapple on it.  No word on this issue though...

Again, I give the show credit for how they handled Poussey's death though.  I think that the reactions in different forums across the internet show the problems that we have right now with really discussing the issues in spite of an increased recognition of them.  People talk about issues like police brutality and the persecution of the black community in definitive terms without recognizing the nuances that are related.  

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A_Ron_Hubbard

I know for a fact I did comment several times on how shocking it was that they essentially cast military vets as villains. Not sure which episode or podcast but it did come up. I found it appalling that there was not even a single redeeming one.

A lot of the problems I see in commentary on shows is failing to recognize the intended audience. If you have an advanced understanding of social issues you're probably going to be frustrated at introductory attempts to talk about those issues. That doesnt mean that those introductions have no value. Not everything can be The Wire, and even The Wire has its flaws here and there.

awturbosp

@akritenbrink   Yes, I did.  

A.Ron:  Thanks for responding.  I started the podcast after watching the season because I was interested in hearing you guys' (didn't know the format or hosts) take was on it.  I wanted to wait until I was done with all of the podcasts so that I could see what you guys said about it and found myself very frustrated after this particular one.  I was possibly more sensitive to the veteran issue by episode six because I had heard rumblings about it before getting around to watching this season.  

Great point about the frustration that can be caused by shows trying to introduce complicated issues.  Definitely a point that I didn't think about thoroughly as a possible cause of my personal frustration.  Maybe I just watched the previous seasons more leisurely but this one just came across as preachy to me.  I definitely agree with you that there is value in shows introducing difficult and complicated issues.  Getting people talking is very important for our culture to continue to evolve.  Hopefully it leads people to learn more about the nuances of the issues at the same time.  

On the Wire:  I've watched the first season and it lost me after an episode or two into the second, but I'm going to get back into it after hearing all of the good things that you and Jim have said about it when I get a chance.  

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