I'm sure there are some if you take a look the threads. For me though, I'm fully engaged. It may not be your cup of tea and there's nothing wrong with that.
I'm with you, honestly. I'm beginning to sense that the show has a character and overall narrative problem. Many of the scenes are undermined by a lack of clear stakes, or just general confusion on what the hell is going on. Story is and should be king, not a manipulated sense of intrigue resulting from lack of clarity. And the characters should serve that story. They seem to be working in reverse order.
I find it a bit boring in parts - I flick through my phone a lot while I'm watching it. It's okay, and I can see why some people are really into it, but I'm not a huge fan of either sci fi or westerns, so ehhhhhhhh.
yeah i'm not giving up on it, not yet, but i am wondering if it might not be the story for me. i like rules-driven universes where everything is well defined and follows rules (even if those rules are "some people can perform magic and dragons are real") and you can dive as deep into it as you want and it's internally consistent. i'm not sure this is going to be one of those universes. and, yeah, it's possible to have a complicated story with narrative tricks that enhance the telling (pulp fiction springs to mind, or even memento), but it's also possible to completely obfuscate the story and tell it in a way that intentionally misleads the audience--and i think it would be really, really hard to do in a tv series across 600+ minutes as opposed to a 90-to-120 minute movie.
on the other hand, the scenery is beautiful so maybe i'll watch it anyway even if i do kind of give up on it.
@MichaelG Yes! It's annoying to me when scifi doesn't explain things or things don't seem plausible. It's too soon to tell if this is going that way, but that's my feeling.
My other big issue with it so far is it seems we're supposed to care about "characters" that are robots. I find the robot concept interesting, but I don't think of them as characters. It's like ..there are these classic conflicts in literature like man vs man, man vs. self, etc etc. It's a man vs. tech story but it seems they are sort of trying to make it a man vs. man story, and that doesn't work for me. But if I watch it as a man vs. tech story, I get so bored during the parts where robots are having these emotional conversations with each other. The one in ep 4 with Hector and Maeve was kind of interesting because she says something like "nothing matters" and making out, which I guess robots are not supposed to do with each other, and you can see some foreshadowing of maybe them going bananas and causing mayhem in future loops. But I'm not emotionally invested in them; they are robots. My husband IS emotionally invested in them, and he loves the show, so maybe that's the difference? IDK
I'm still in it though because it's interesting enough from a narrative perspective to have characters that aren't characters, and the concept of tech gone awry is somewhat professionally interesting to me, but these are both intellectual reasons to watch it, and I am not that engaged on a human level at this point, if that makes sense.
Except that these robots really don't act like robots. They really act like they feel, even the ones who are supposedly not woken up, which is actually kinda scary when they can turn the emotion on and off like Dolores can. It raises many questions about what they're going to do and what they'll be capable of if they realize what their world really is.
I'm with you, honestly. I'm beginning to sense that the show has a character and overall narrative problem. Many of the scenes are undermined by a lack of clear stakes, or just general confusion on what the hell is going on. Story is and should be king, not a manipulated sense of intrigue resulting from lack of clarity. And the characters should serve that story. They seem to be working in reverse order.
I'm fully engaged...I guess it's the combination of intrigue and character, rather than the strength of either, that has me captivated. At the same time I was surprised that I find your post spot-on.
Robot characters and AI philosophy can only carry a story so far. Honestly, even most of the human characters lack basic humanity and subsequent relatability.
I'm not trying to write off the show yet. It's quite watchable based on production value and thematic elements, but I'm worried there's not enough fuel in that tank to keep the show entertaining.
I am not emotionally engaged either, and I need to be emotionally engaged in both the story and the characters in order for me to invest in long-form storytelling. If anyone listens to The Watch podcast, I agree with Andy Greenwald and his reservations about the show, and Chris made the astute point the first episode: that there is no Jon Snow or Tyrion Lannister, etc. for the viewer to immediately latch onto as someone to sympathize or identify with. That relatable human element is lacking even with the human characters in Westworld.
I still haven't watched last week's episode, and I'm not sure if I will. I care more deeply about the characters in Atlanta, which has aired approximately the same amount of material as Westworld, and I am more interested in the topics and themes that show explores than Westworld. Rectify is a show that is incredibly emotional and rich and yet has very little plot, so character, story, and relationships are far more important to me than intrigue and twists. Not that there is anything wrong with intrigue and twists, I'm just not the target demographic for this type of show.
Edited to add: It's also an exceedingly humorless show.
I'm not convinced the robots feel anything. They can express feelings, improvise, and respond to things but that's what they were engineered to do.
Yea, I mean, that's a central theme to the show, and one I actually find compelling, for now. But without compelling characters, the story itself comes across as mechanical and well, robotic.
Deloris is close to relatable, and is clearly en route to becoming the protagonist, but I don't know which version of her is "real" yet, nor do I have a strong sense of her capacity for suffering, and that's a problem for us as an audience engaging with her character.
I'm also worried they'll just drag the "are robots conscious" theme out endlessly, not unlike how TWD draws out the whole: WHOO ARE WE, THIS ISNT US RICK thing every year. Hopefully not this year though.
@pavlovsbell I agree completely with you about the show being absolutely humorless. It takes itself much too seriously. There is plenty of room for fun and games in this universe. If they did insert a little fun, it would make the characters, both human and robot, much more compelling, and would probably end up enticing more audience empathy for the AIs.
Well Hector and Maeve certainly talk about the horror of what they go through, and Dolores certainly views her negative outcomes in the loop as suboptimal.
The lack of clearly articulated goals of the characters undermines the show's ability to test them in the face of true consequences. What sacrifices would they make in pursuit of their goals? What moral dilemmas do they suffer and how do they react?
It’s a fundamentally amoral world because of the lack of consequences. If THAT tenet changes, which I believe it will (and has to) then the show will get real interesting real quick.
I'm not convinced the robots feel anything. They can express feelings, improvise, and respond to things but that's what they were engineered to do.
How do I know anyone "feels" anything? You say your sad prove it...you say your happy prove it...as it was said in another thread proving feelings is more difficult than it seems. "I know I feel, because I am conscious of this". All feelings really are are chemical and electrical reactions. All things that could be duplicated via an advanced AI. The difference is that these AI can fully control the neurological system that is in their body. This allows them to "turn" off said reactions.
My point is that I personally don't feel or care much for the characters, robotic or otherwise, as currently presented. This, along with the vagueness of the narrative, has kept me from investing myself into the story on an emotional level.
I dig the universe and the concept, for sure, but those things aren't enough to build a show on. Well, you can, but i personally don't stick around long.
Again, I'm not giving up on it, just a little worried the show doesn't have it priorities straight.
My point is that I personally don't feel or care much for the characters, robotic or otherwise, as currently presented. This, along with the vagueness of the narrative, has kept me from investing myself into the story on an emotional level.
I dig the universe and the concept, for sure, but those things aren't enough to build a show on.
Again, I'm not giving up on it, just a little worried the show doesn't have it priorities straight.
Yes, I know this. As I've said before, nothing wrong with it not clicking with you (or anyone else). We all have different things that attract us. If you are preventing yourself from being emotionally invested, at this point I'm not sure there is much that will change that. Sometimes it's just once scene or event that will change our perception. I'm never in the business of trying to convince someone they should like a show, there is/was just too many other things one could invest their time watching. For instance, I started watching the Strain. I gave it almost the entire 1st season, but decided I couldn't get past certain things and dropped it from the rotation. I did go back and watch part of one episode, but it was more of the same. I do know many people enjoy the show as a guilty pleasure (or really like it) I'm just one of them.
No worries. This isn't really a hate thread, so I'm not saying you're wrong or I'm right. And I'm more than willing to admit it's all subjective here.
Like I've said, I'm not quitting the show. I don't think anyone has said that. This thread is more about being on the fence. I'm a big sci-if fan, and I've always been very interested in AI. That's why I had and still have high hopes for the show. I love the concept and production values, but also find the narrative execution and characters lacking so far. I imagine I'll finish the season and see how it feels.
I actually do feel for the robots, at least for Dolores and Maeve. One of the things that makes me kind of turn off it a bit is that idea that the people can do whatever they want to the robots and I'm just not the sort of person who wants to murder or rape or even be mean to someone just because they're not "real". Like, I'm the sort of person who will put a stuffed toy under the bedcovers during the day so they are comfy, you know?
I actually do feel for the robots, at least for Dolores and Maeve. One of the things that makes me kind of turn off it a bit is that idea that the people can do whatever they want to the robots and I'm just not the sort of person who wants to murder or rape or even be mean to someone just because they're not "real". Like, I'm the sort of person who will put a stuffed toy under the bedcovers during the day so they are comfy, you know?
We are seeing that story play out with Dolores. Logan sees her as a doll, and William is treating her like a person
I actually do feel for the robots, at least for Dolores and Maeve. One of the things that makes me kind of turn off it a bit is that idea that the people can do whatever they want to the robots and I'm just not the sort of person who wants to murder or rape or even be mean to someone just because they're not "real". Like, I'm the sort of person who will put a stuffed toy under the bedcovers during the day so they are comfy, you know?
We are seeing that story play out with Dolores. Logan sees her as a doll, and William is treating her like a person
Yeah this is a philosophical question every viewer has to answer for themselves, even though the showrunners are clearly presenting us with a "right answer."
She thinks, although she mostly thinks what she was taught. But how is that different than a child? She feels, although she supposedly only feels what she's been told to--except now she feels new ideas that weren't planned, because she's improvising She cringes when you hurt her, she expresses compassion when you hurt She has creative ideas, she's exploring plans of her own.
How real does she need to be before you think that it's wrong to keep her enslaved? Do you have any kind of a line in your head?
Is it a "brick and mortar" fence or is it a robot fence? Is Arnold the fence?
For what it's worth, I'm totally into it, but I understand that it has flaws. A buddy of mine is stuck back on episode 2 because it's just too slow and he falls asleep whenever he tries to watch it later in the evening when he's freed up to do so. It also kind of feels like buying stock in a company that looks insanely promising, but has't technically made any money yet. I like these crazy webs and I like the feeling of sort of being on a roller coaster and knowing that even though I can't see it yet there are crazy turns ahead. It's been a really fun ride and I have faith that we're going to get to some very cool conclusions, but I can see how it could feel kind of flat and like the show is spinning it's wheels in an effort to slow down the plot so that they can perpetuate the mystery as opposed to letting the strength of the story drive the thing. I'm totally in, and even though I think Atlanta and Better Things are probably better shows for sheer objective quality, I look forward to a new episode of Westworld more than anything else throughout the week, but I definitely get the other side of it. I'm just really hoping that my stock hits big.
Honestly, from episode 1 (I think I said it here) I was a little suspicious about the "big central mystery" thing. Seeing how that got bobbled in a few shows I otherwise liked (BSG most particularly, but most recently in Mr. Robot), I'm sort of looking forward to plot and character driving the show, not mysteries. So, yes, I'm with you.
My wife, although she's watched a few episodes, is truly not invested in it. I can tell that if I asked her, I'd get a "meh" from her.
And I'm not really "invested" in the characters or their stories. But I am loving the podcast and forum discussions about the show. I wouldn't be watching each episode twice if I wasn't searching for clues to back up (or toss out) all the plausible and "tin foil hat" theories that abound.
Sometimes I think that HBO saw all the discussion and chatter about story theory behind shows like GoT and (especially) Mr. Robot that they created a show specifically to foster all this discussion. Get JJ Abrams (Mr. Secrecy) involved to start the process, then bring on J. Nolan (who has confused us all with The Prestige and Memento) to kick the viewer involvement into high gear.
My biggest concern is that there's a decent payoff by the end of the season and all these clues aren't just dangling bait.
"My biggest concern is that there's a decent payoff by the end of the season and all these clues aren't just dangling bait"
My biggest concern is what they're going to do when they actually pay off the mystery this season and where the show is going. The timeline stuff is going to get sorted out soon. It seems we're pretty close to robot revolt already- this is going to be multiple seasons of robot revolt? An exploration of self aware robot society?
![[Deleted User]](https://forums.baldmove.com/applications/dashboard/design/images/defaulticon.png)
Comments
I'm not trying to write off the show yet. It's quite watchable based on production value and thematic
elements, but I'm worried there's not enough fuel in that tank to keep the show entertaining.
Deloris is close to relatable, and is clearly en route to becoming the protagonist, but I don't know which version of her is "real" yet, nor do I have a strong sense of her capacity for suffering, and that's a problem for us as an audience engaging with her character.
I'm also worried they'll just drag the "are robots conscious" theme out endlessly, not unlike how TWD draws out the whole: WHOO ARE WE, THIS ISNT US RICK thing every year. Hopefully not this year though.
It’s a fundamentally amoral world because of the lack of consequences. If THAT tenet changes, which I believe it will (and has to) then the show will get real interesting real quick.
My point is that I personally don't feel or care much for the characters, robotic or otherwise, as currently presented. This, along with the vagueness of the narrative, has kept me from investing myself into the story on an emotional level.
I dig the universe and the concept, for sure, but those things aren't enough to build a show on. Well, you can, but i personally don't stick around long.
Again, I'm not giving up on it, just a little worried the show doesn't have it priorities straight.
No worries. This isn't really a hate thread, so I'm not saying you're wrong or I'm right. And I'm more than willing to admit it's all subjective here.
Like I've said, I'm not quitting the show. I don't think anyone has said that. This thread is more about being on the fence. I'm a big sci-if fan, and I've always been very interested in AI. That's why I had and still have high hopes for the show. I love the concept and production values, but also find the narrative execution and characters lacking so far. I imagine I'll finish the season and see how it feels.
She thinks, although she mostly thinks what she was taught. But how is that different than a child?
She feels, although she supposedly only feels what she's been told to--except now she feels new ideas that weren't planned, because she's improvising
She cringes when you hurt her, she expresses compassion when you hurt
She has creative ideas, she's exploring plans of her own.
How real does she need to be before you think that it's wrong to keep her enslaved? Do you have any kind of a line in your head?