Multiple Timelines Not Likely

Dmark3

A big theory going around is that William and the Man in Black are on separate time timelines. The biggest evidence against this from my vantage point is when Luke Hemsworth's character metions that Dolores is out of her loop and they send someone in to grab her. He also comments on The Man in Black, that he is a VIP and can do whatever he wants. In the Stray he goes with Elsie to get the wandering Host. They could be playing with our eyes on this, but it establishes that they are happening within a similar time period, but Hemsworth's character is for sure part of a current timeline thus tying all the characters together. This is not to say that the show isn't using time jumps, a la Game of Thrones, but they seem to have explained that things are happening within the same timeline and we the fans are breathing life into a theory that isn't really there. Would be interested in others thoughts on this. I am by no means an expert on the show just a fan who has really enjoyed the discussions for this show.

ncat

Unless Hemsworth's character is a host

voodoorat

A big theory going around is that William and the Man in Black are on separate time timelines. The biggest evidence against this from my vantage point is when Luke Hemsworth's character metions that Dolores is out of her loop and they send someone in to grab her. He also comments on The Man in Black, that he is a VIP and can do whatever he wants. In the Stray he goes with Elsie to get the wandering Host. They could be playing with our eyes on this, but it establishes that they are happening within a similar time period, but Hemsworth's character is for sure part of a current timeline thus tying all the characters together. This is not to say that the show isn't using time jumps, a la Game of Thrones, but they seem to have explained that things are happening within the same timeline and we the fans are breathing life into a theory that isn't really there. Would be interested in others thoughts on this. I am by no means an expert on the show just a fan who has really enjoyed the discussions for this show.

i'm not a big fan of the theory since if it's true it means they're intentionally obfuscating the story by showing things in a deceptive order which doesn't seem that artful...  but it seems like hemsworth's character (stubbs?) could also just be a new-timeline character and delores could just be off her loop *again*.  like i said, i don't like it because it's intentionally misleading, but it seems possible and i think the 2-timelines thing keeps getting more likely with every carefully potentially misleading edit.  from ep 4 txscript (http://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?f=738&t=29245):

We've got a host making a pretty big deviation from her loop. 

Which one? 

The rancher's daughter from Sweetwater. Dolores. 

Is she accompanying a guest? 

Unclear. The boss is disrupting so many storylines with his new narrative, it's hard to tell. 

Flag her with behavior. They can pull her today. Make sure everything's checking out.

that "unclear" thing to me seems to leave open the door that she's just off on her own (and the editing elsewhere where it keeps showing her by herself and then showing william or whoever pop up)...  i dunno, man.

KingKobra

I think people familiar with Time Travel (like myself) have been/were nitpicking the terminology being used. It's not actually two timelines people are talking about, it's two points within the same timeline. The terminology is poor, but it's gone too far and we are a small group.

voodoorat

KingKobra said:

I think people familiar with Time Travel (like myself) have been/were nitpicking the terminology being used. It's not actually two timelines people are talking about, it's two points within the same timeline. The terminology is poor, but it's gone too far and we are a small group.

right, i assume when people say "two timelines" they are just talking about an extended flashback being interspersed with the current story, not in the time travelly sense where two distinct sets of things happened.

Luke

The two timelines thing is also on Reddit. No one is arguing that this is two different dimensions or something like that (which I agree is what I would normally think when I heard the term "multiple timelines").

It's just that to even put forth the theory that we are seeing an extended flashback you have to call it something other than a flashback. Because there are obvious flashbacks already in the show.

Two loops would probably be a better term, because according to the theory we are actually seeing two different loops with Delores one with and one without William.

The issues with the two loop theories are many, but that will never stop the tinfoil. I've read through many Darrio=Benjen=Euron diatribes in my time and this is nothing compared to what the GoT crowd dreams up in the GRRM writing gap.

I happen to not thing the two loop theory to be very interesting. Especially since it clearly can't show the event that killed Arnold because we have had Logan specifically mention it.

So at best William=MIB and we get the origin of why William turned black hat. But why would we really need a season long hidden flashback arc to show us that?

And if that's true it means William/Delores don't find any answers to why she is becoming sentient because William/MIB gets stopped before finding any clues and Delores gets reset. So the inevitable end to that would be a "holy shit this was all a big flashback that went nowhere because the loop got reset".

ChiefPizza

Luke said:

The two timelines thing is also on Reddit. No one is arguing that this is two different dimensions or something like that (which I agree is what I would normally think when I heard the term "multiple timelines").

It's just that to even put forth the theory that we are seeing an extended flashback you have to call it something other than a flashback. Because there are obvious flashbacks already in the show.

Two loops would probably be a better term, because according to the theory we are actually seeing two different loops with Delores one with and one without William.

The issues with the two loop theories are many, but that will never stop the tinfoil. I've read through many Darrio=Benjen=Euron diatribes in my time and this is nothing compared to what the GoT crowd dreams up in the GRRM writing gap.

I happen to not thing the two loop theory to be very interesting. Especially since it clearly can't show the event that killed Arnold because we have had Logan specifically mention it.

So at best William=MIB and we get the origin of why William turned black hat. But why would we really need a season long hidden flashback arc to show us that?

And if that's true it means William/Delores don't find any answers to why she is becoming sentient because William/MIB gets stopped before finding any clues and Delores gets reset. So the inevitable end to that would be a "holy shit this was all a big flashback that went nowhere because the loop got reset".

To go along with this, if the Dolores and William plot is happening in the past, and William is the MiB, then the only possible outcome in the past plot is for Dolores to fail at finding the maze. If William/MiB is *still* looking for the maze 30 years later, then unless William and Dolores get separated, we can assume that she is stopped before she finds the maze. And since Dolores is the most interesting plot in the show right now, it would be pretty disappointing if she were to just fail at her mission and her only season ending is to be reset and sent back to her loop. The two "timeline" theory just doesn't make sense in this way.

jilliant26

I think my biggest issue with the theory is two parts:

1. We know the hosts are often rebuilt as new narratives are created. Are we to believe that Dolores has been on the exact same loop as the rancher's daughter dropping the same can of condensed milk for the last 30+ years? That doesn't seem likely to me.

2. Dolores is experiencing flashbacks while she is with William and Logan that I assume are from a previous build. I believe that like Maeve (who we know is a "present day" character) these flash backs were triggered by the "reveries" added in the update we see in the first episode.

I know there is some evidence for the theory (and after I heard about it and re-watched the first 4 episodes I bought into it too), but I feel like there are some gapping holes that don't quite make it work for me.

The Hand

I've been pretty skeptical of the two timelines theory. I've also been loathe to jump to too many assumptions.

However, I'm coming around to the two timelines theory because of the evidence and coincidences that seem to be stacking up.

Before, I felt that the storytelling was intentionally straightforward. That is, characters say certain things serving as segues into following scenes. Now I'm entertaining the thought that the dialog is intentionally being used to deceive the audience. That is, it's being used to make the audience believe they are the same timeline when they are not.

So, in this case, Dolores is clearly out of her loop. Her visions imply that she's been out of the loops before.

I could possibly be wrong and would gladly see hard evidence to put this speculation to rest.

Doctor_Nick

Yes. Not explicitly crossing characters to disprove this theory thus far indicates to me that they're showing scenes that follow each other but are actually from different points in time on similar loops. The glitching, where Dolores is shown alone while with William and Logan, actually are flash forwards to more present day Dolores in this scenario, which would be the Dolores we see talking to Teddy about Wyatt.

The Hand said:

I've been pretty skeptical of the two timelines theory. I've also been loathe to jump to too many assumptions.

However, I'm coming around to the two timelines theory because of the evidence and coincidences that seem to be stacking up.

Before, I felt that the storytelling was intentionally straightforward. That is, characters say certain things serving as segues into following scenes. Now I'm entertaining the thought that the dialog is intentionally being used to deceive the audience. That is, it's being used to make the audience believe they are the same timeline when they are not.

So, in this case, Dolores is clearly out of her loop. Her visions imply that she's been out of the loops before.

I could possibly be wrong and would gladly see hard evidence to put this speculation to rest.

telephoneofmadness

I don't see the point in having a secret dual-timeline and I don't like it. Why not just have a subtitle saying "30 years ago"? I think it's unlikely, but hey, it could be true. If it's true I'm done with the show, because I already made the mistake of continuing to watch Mr Robot after getting trolled by Sam Esmail in season one.

cbspock

Wouldn't the Delores / Logan / William group meeting up with Teddy / MIB put the final nail in the two time line coffin? 

joepinetree

I started thinking there is something to the two time lines theory. If you go back to episodes 2 and 3, they go out of their way to show William and Logan interacting with Clementine and Maeve interacting with Clementine, but never both on the same shot. It is noticeable enough that it leads me to think that either there are two timelines out they wanted people think that.

cbspock

I never bought into the two timelines. I think what we are seeing is all current. However the hosts are having flashbacks to 30+ years ago as they go through this current loop. 

darwinfeeshy

cbspock said:

Wouldn't the Delores / Logan / William group meeting up with Teddy / MIB put the final nail in the two time line coffin? 

Yes it would, but that hasn't happened yet.

Doctor_Nick

Yes. And I think Dolores talking to William and Logan about Wyatt in the same way Teddy talks to the MiB would probably do it too. Unless Wyatt turns out to an older antagonist than Ford let on.

The Hand

I'm not sure about x=MIB yet either. I think it could make for a cool story but don't see much in the way of evidence. I do think that it's pretty peculiar that we haven't heard anyone say his name 6 episodes in and it would be a let down if he wasn't one of or connected to one of the existing characters. 

Once Logan or William meet a human that's shown to be in the current timeline, it will disprove the two timeline theory. But, up until now, they've only interacted with bots.

I've seen a lot of counterarguments based on the quality of bots (machines vs flesh) but that's not solid because we have no idea of the timeline when bots made that transition. The same goes for the Turing test argument. It could easily be the case that the park opened 35+ years ago (Dolores is quoted as having last had a conversation with Arnold 34 years ago) and the William/Logan storyline happening 30 years ago (which is generally when it's quoted that the park had a massive failure), leaving a 5 year gap for bots to go from Wild Bill (or whatever his name is) to the flesh-y, more intelligent bots we see William and Logan interact with. 

manhattnik

I'm convinced that we're seeing present-day Dolores following the path (loop?) she originally took years ago with William. Some of the William loop she's experiencing as flashbacks and hallucinations. And why sometimes she's shown with William, then suddenly she's alone. Basically, Bernard sent her to take this oath again. He probably know where it's going. And remember Dolores' headstone. The first go-round may not have ended so well for her.

Doctor_Nick

Not so sure Bernard sending her to the maze was present day. Given how generally clueless Bernard seems and how Ford doesn't seem to know much about the maze (he pulls out what is probably Arnold's drawings to go over the maze symbol) it just seems odd that present day Bernard knows she's sentient and sent her off to the maze.   Interestingly, when I watched episode 1 and 2 again, Stubbs is the one who debriefs Dolores about her father going haywire.  Bernard talking to Dolores doesn't touch on this.  I think those Bernard sending Dolores to the maze is either much earlier Bernard or Arnold alive, assuming Bernard is a remade Arnold with missing memories.  The talk with his wife may also be Arnold.

scott777b

I'm a recent convert to the "two-timeline (or, two narratives within the same timeline) and so William = MIB" theory. But one little point is just bugging me: When MIB drags Lawrence to Las Mudas to talk to his family, he mentions that he's never been to that part of the park before. And yet, William was in Las Mudas with Delores (where she met Lawrence's daughter.)

I guess this could be a minor continuity error, or it could mean that if we're watching two timelines, William is not MIB.

Blueferret

scott777b said:

I'm a recent convert to the "two-timeline (or, two narratives within the same timeline) and so William = MIB" theory. But one little point is just bugging me: When MIB drags Lawrence to Las Mudas to talk to his family, he mentions that he's never been to that part of the park before. And yet, William was in Las Mudas with Delores (where she met Lawrence's daughter.)

I guess this could be a minor continuity error, or it could mean that if we're watching two timelines, William is not MIB.

Are Las Mudas and Pariah the same thing? If not, William hasn't been in Las Mudas.

ChiefPizza

Blueferret said:

scott777b said:

I'm a recent convert to the "two-timeline (or, two narratives within the same timeline) and so William = MIB" theory. But one little point is just bugging me: When MIB drags Lawrence to Las Mudas to talk to his family, he mentions that he's never been to that part of the park before. And yet, William was in Las Mudas with Delores (where she met Lawrence's daughter.)

I guess this could be a minor continuity error, or it could mean that if we're watching two timelines, William is not MIB.

Are Las Mudas and Pariah the same thing? If not, William hasn't been in Las Mudas.

Nope - two different places. You can view a map of the park at discoverwestworld.com

William has been shown in both places though. When Dolores was in Las Mudas, the guy who tried to take her back to her ranch was stopped by William ("She's with me.")

The Hand

scott777b said:

I'm a recent convert to the "two-timeline (or, two narratives within the same timeline) and so William = MIB" theory. But one little point is just bugging me: When MIB drags Lawrence to Las Mudas to talk to his family, he mentions that he's never been to that part of the park before. And yet, William was in Las Mudas with Delores (where she met Lawrence's daughter.)

I guess this could be a minor continuity error, or it could mean that if we're watching two timelines, William is not MIB.

Im beginning to buy the two timeline theory but haven't seen anything to indicate William is the MIB. I just find them to be 2 really different personalities. William is practically falling in love with Dolores. I don't buy that he would rape her 30 years later (they don't ever show the rape but Dolores does seem to have a terrified memory of being in the barn).

I read another good point elsewhere too. If William is the MIB, why does the MIB feel clueless about the maze? Wouldn't he know exactly where to go? He wouldn't have to bother with Lawrence and Armistice. He could go directly to Pariah (unless the maze is known to change).

ChiefPizza

The Hand said:

scott777b said:

I'm a recent convert to the "two-timeline (or, two narratives within the same timeline) and so William = MIB" theory. But one little point is just bugging me: When MIB drags Lawrence to Las Mudas to talk to his family, he mentions that he's never been to that part of the park before. And yet, William was in Las Mudas with Delores (where she met Lawrence's daughter.)

I guess this could be a minor continuity error, or it could mean that if we're watching two timelines, William is not MIB.

Im beginning to buy the two timeline theory but haven't seen anything to indicate William is the MIB. I just find them to be 2 really different personalities. William is practically falling in love with Dolores. I don't buy that he would rape her 30 years later (they don't ever show the rape but Dolores does seem to have a terrified memory of being in the barn).

I read another good point elsewhere too. If William is the MIB, why does the MIB feel clueless about the maze? Wouldn't he know exactly where to go? He wouldn't have to bother with Lawrence and Armistice. He could go directly to Pariah (unless the maze is known to change).

I said the same thing about MiB not knowing where to find the maze if he is William - if they are the same person, that implies that Dolores failed to find the maze when they were together, which would be extremely disappointing.

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ChiefPizza

akritenbrink said:

This show does make continuity errors. My pet peeve is with Teresa's cigarettes. Some shows make a point to have the cigarette smoking look natural in terms of how long it takes and how the cigarette burns down etc. (like Mr Robot does a pretty good job of this) but there are all kinds of continuity errors with hers, even though they are a huge part of the scene every time she takes a step back and lights up, to the point where I expect the cigarette smoking to be more meaningful somewhere down the line. 

I haven't really paid much attention to the smoking - what are they doing that's inconsistent? I want to start looking out for it now haha.

DharmaBot

I haven't noticed either but often even huge films have issues with cigarette length/burn rate from shot-to-shot. There is a shot in Reservoir Dogs where one character holds his lighter up but never actually lights his cigarette that used to drive me nuts.

I've since traded cigarettes for xanax and these things don't bother me anymore.

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The user and all related content has been deleted.

bsmither

An incredibly minor continuity error, and I forget which episode, the sidekick of a bad guy draws his weapon. The next shot he draws his weapon again.

What's funny, is the facial expression of this guy while drawing his gun. The actor is clearly an extra. He clenches his eyes shut while inexpertly feeling for the handle of his holstered revolver, and pulls it out like he's handling a mushy banana.

As an aside, one thing that peeves me is when a B-grade actor pulls the trigger of a handgun. He/she blinks/grimaces as if afraid the noise is going to hit them in their eyes. My training has me keeping my eyes wide open when taking the shot and observing where the slug lands.

KingKobra

akritenbrink said:

ChiefPizza said:

akritenbrink said:

This show does make continuity errors. My pet peeve is with Teresa's cigarettes. Some shows make a point to have the cigarette smoking look natural in terms of how long it takes and how the cigarette burns down etc. (like Mr Robot does a pretty good job of this) but there are all kinds of continuity errors with hers, even though they are a huge part of the scene every time she takes a step back and lights up, to the point where I expect the cigarette smoking to be more meaningful somewhere down the line. 

I haven't really paid much attention to the smoking - what are they doing that's inconsistent? I want to start looking out for it now haha.

It's just the usual where she lights a cigarette and then one second later it's half ash or vice versa. I don't know why I get focused on this. I'm not even a smoker but I have been around a lot of smokers so when the rhythm of smoking is off it bugs me.

Only if those are "traditional" ciggarettes the "burn" may also mark the passage of time, since there is no other way outside of a clock showing time.

DharmaBot

Simurettes?