Dolores / Teddy

mylifeaskirk

The base Teddy/Dolores loop(s) seem extra cruel. Granted they're hosts, etc. But they are, respectively, raped and killed on an almost daily basis. If Dolores is one of the oldest hosts in the park, that just seems... mean? Who has a grudge against them? Ford? Why? My shaky guess is that Arnold loved Dolores, and tried to use her to destroy the park (Ford mentions as much in an interrogation with her), but Teddy actually was the one who did all the killing (Teddy Flood = the great cleansing). So maybe Ford set this loop up as a kind of vengeance. He strikes me as a "keep your friends close, your enemies closer" kind of guy.

cbspock

Teddy keeps her on the farm, they are both on side loops and not even on a main narrative in the park. It seems like Ford wants them around, but out of the way. 

scott777b

I'm not even buying that it's cruel or mean. Ford's already shown that he doesn't think hosts have any real feeling (cutting the face open on one and lecturing the tech). And Delores isn't like Sisyphus who had to roll that rock up the mountain everyday for all eternity. Delores doesn't remember yesterday...it never happened. Each day is a new day she greets with a smile and (as she says) looks for the good in it and the people she meets. Hardly like someone who's suffering.

gjulleen

I think Ford is spiteful.  The fact that Dolores isn't comprehending the full horror of her situation wouldn't lessen the smug satisfaction Ford is getting from it.

He monologues at Theresa to gloat that he had won their game.  That was completely unnecessary, he could have had Bernard shove her down the stairs and she would have died none the wiser.

He wanted her to have the horror of knowing that she had sex with a creature Ford was in total control of.  He wanted her to know that he had seen through her plotting and worked it to her advantage.  He wanted her to get the full realization that her lover was going to kill her with no remorse.

The guy is evil.  He has contempt for his creations.  It wouldn't have bothered him at all if the tech had thrown a cover on a robot if he didn't want the things constantly debased.  If someone tossed a cover on bare wires behind your computer because they found them distracting would you object?  Probably not, it wouldn't even register to complain.  It offended Ford, you don't get offended if you are not emotionally invested.

Putting Dolores in a torture loop where she is super happy and cheerful and ends her life in a horror show every damn day is exactly the kind of thing a sadistic bastard like him would do.

cbspock

Does he have contempt for his creations, or is it contempt for Arnold? He seems to want to remind himself every day they aren't real people. He does enjoy having control over them. 

gjulleen

I would agree that those two concepts may be intertwined in his mind, but he is expressing that emotion on the hosts.

I think Arnold liked Dolores. I have no evidence that it was romantic, she may have just been the greatest expression of his skill.

I would buy tha Ford is torturing Dolores to punish the memory of Arnold.

cbspock

So Teddy has no way of changing his narrative or Ford made sure he never thinks of running away with her

mylifeaskirk

gjulleen said:

I would agree that those two concepts may be intertwined in his mind, but he is expressing that emotion on the hosts.

I think Arnold liked Dolores. I have no evidence that it was romantic, she may have just been the greatest expression of his skill.

I would buy tha Ford is torturing Dolores to punish the memory of Arnold.

Good point - it very well may be just that she is his greatest creation

mylifeaskirk

cbspock said:

Does he have contempt for his creations, or is it contempt for Arnold? He seems to want to remind himself every day they aren't real people. He does enjoy having control over them. 

This is true. He tells Bernard to remember they aren't real, does the face cutting thing, and always has the hosts naked. Free under his control. Maybe he's lashing out at Arnold/anyone who believes the hosts can be real. I wonder if this new story - which is a "very old story" I think he says at one point right before we see the church steeple - is a rerun, this time to "get it right" so he can prove that everything under the westworld sun is his.

cbspock

mylifeaskirk said:

cbspock said:

Does he have contempt for his creations, or is it contempt for Arnold? He seems to want to remind himself every day they aren't real people. He does enjoy having control over them. 

This is true. He tells Bernard to remember they aren't real, does the face cutting thing, and always has the hosts naked. Free under his control. Maybe he's lashing out at Arnold/anyone who believes the hosts can be real. I wonder if this new story - which is a "very old story" I think he says at one point right before we see the church steeple - is a rerun, this time to "get it right" so he can prove that everything under the westworld sun is his.

Do you think he is trying to re-create what happened in the park 30+ years ago to prove to himself it was a fluke? 

gjulleen

I know I brought this up in a former topic thread, but the way they treat the hosts is really horrible.  Maybe that's why I'm able to see Ford's character as being sadistic.  It could be that if you are seeing the hosts as emotionless, programmed computers you are not feeling his actions as cruel.

I said before that in playing WOW legion, I give the wretched "ancient mana" even though there isn't a quest and you get no reward.  You just feed them 5 of your 'ancient mana' currency.  I feel guilty running by them when I'm running low and can't help them.  They look so miserable.

I would be willing to guess part of the screening process would be to weed out people like me, I can't be the only one.  I knew people who did the "Pamela's Doll" quest line even when it held no benefit for them.  They just wanted to help little Pamela.  If I went to Westworld I would feel an urgent necessity to rescue hosts.  I could see me trying to smuggle out the little girl after her mother was killed to save her.

Maybe that's why we're seeing his motivations so differently.  Even in a park operating as intended, no sentient thought, I would still feel sick and horrified.

Who the hell is taking their children, though.  For reals. 

cbspock

gjulleen said:

I know I brought this up in a former topic thread, but the way they treat the hosts is really horrible.  Maybe that's why I'm able to see Ford's character as being sadistic.  It could be that if you are seeing the hosts as emotionless, programmed computers you are not feeling his actions as cruel.

I said before that in playing WOW legion, I give the wretched "ancient mana" even though there isn't a quest and you get no reward.  You just feed them 5 of your 'ancient mana' currency.  I feel guilty running by them when I'm running low and can't help them.  They look so miserable.

I would be willing to guess part of the screening process would be to weed out people like me, I can't be the only one.  I knew people who did the "Pamela's Doll" quest line even when it held no benefit for them.  They just wanted to help little Pamela.  If I went to Westworld I would feel an urgent necessity to rescue hosts.  I could see me trying to smuggle out the little girl after her mother was killed to save her.

Maybe that's why we're seeing his motivations so differently.  Even in a park operating as intended, no sentient thought, I would still feel sick and horrified.

Who the hell is taking their children, though.  For reals. 

That is interesting. I remember the first time I played Siphon Filter, there is one level with scientists in it. I had no problem wiping out the soldiers that fire on you, but you also have to kill the scientists and all they do in the game is run away from you. I found it disturbing that you basically had just kill them in cold blood. The fastest and most disturbing way to clear the level was just to put a round in their head using the sniper rifle. I didn't like that level of the game. 

mylifeaskirk

cbspock said:

mylifeaskirk said:

cbspock said:

Do you think he is trying to re-create what happened in the park 30+ years ago to prove to himself it was a fluke? 

It's one of my weird, not really fleshed-out theories. I think Ford is really starting to feel himself as Lord Over All Creation and wants to go back to the one that got away, essentially. 

mylifeaskirk

gjulleen said:

I know I brought this up in a former topic thread, but the way they treat the hosts is really horrible.  Maybe that's why I'm able to see Ford's character as being sadistic.  It could be that if you are seeing the hosts as emotionless, programmed computers you are not feeling his actions as cruel.

I said before that in playing WOW legion, I give the wretched "ancient mana" even though there isn't a quest and you get no reward.  You just feed them 5 of your 'ancient mana' currency.  I feel guilty running by them when I'm running low and can't help them.  They look so miserable.

I would be willing to guess part of the screening process would be to weed out people like me, I can't be the only one.  I knew people who did the "Pamela's Doll" quest line even when it held no benefit for them.  They just wanted to help little Pamela.  If I went to Westworld I would feel an urgent necessity to rescue hosts.  I could see me trying to smuggle out the little girl after her mother was killed to save her.

Maybe that's why we're seeing his motivations so differently.  Even in a park operating as intended, no sentient thought, I would still feel sick and horrified.

Who the hell is taking their children, though.  For reals. 

I think we as humans already love to anthropomorphize things, it would makes sense we'd do it even more for things that actually look like us. Hell I get sad when one of my plants is dying, and even if an old stuffed animal starts fraying. While I completely get where Logan is coming from in terms of his 'It's just a game' approach, I'm not sure I could go black hat. And that makes me see Ford the way you do.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

bsmither

The above is also my philosophy.

It has been said, "Being offended is a choice." But, really, that does not excuse the personality defects of the other party.

There is still the issue of anger management, followed by sociopathic tendencies, and outright abhorrent behaviors.

Ajas

I think Dr Ford lays it right on the table, very plainly:

I have come to think of so much of consciousness as a burden, a weight, and we have spared them that. Anxiety, self-loathing, guilt. The hosts are the ones who are free.

He definitely feels an intense guilt he's hoping to protect the robots from.

At some point, I think it's actually worth an in-depth breakdown of which-bots-are-whose?  

There are the pre-organic ones, which we know the bartender, pianist, and the 3 Ford-family bots exist.  There are Arnold's bicameral organic bots, then Fords post-bicameral organic bots... and also Ford's unregistered (apparently bullet-proof, i.e. Wyatt's men) home-made organic bots.  And then all the ones in cold storage.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.