Is Westworld too predictable?

tpelzy

I'm really enjoying the show, but I'm wondering what my experience would be if I wasn't aware of all the fan theories. There were people who figured out that Bernard was a host after episode two, and It seems like all the other major theories are going to be confirmed as a well. I think it would be awesome if MIB ran into William on the last episode just for the shock value. Does it take away from the show if fans can pick up on all the major plot twists well in advance?

ChiefPizza

I think it does a little. I wouldn't have caught on to half of the theories and clues if I had just watched the show alone, and it probably would have been more exciting and mind-blowing with the reveals. BUT - that still doesn't stop me from binging on every podcast, article, and theory that I can find, so it's my own fault! Haha

ChristianM

William cannot be the MiB.
I'll tell you why:

1. MiB's story is, like any others, tragic. And both Wife and daughter knew that he was a very bad guy inside. 

2. MiB does something VERY bad to confirm if his wife and daughter were right. He kills Meave's daughter and feels nothing. Thus, confirming he's a bad guy and has been a bad guy. Not only that but if you look at his face, he is smiling and it shows he's been killing people all over Westworld.

3. MiB tells Teddy in Episode 5: "You used to be beautiful. When this place started, I opened one of you up once. A million little perfect pieces. And then they changed you.Madr you this sad, real mess. Flesh and bone, just like us. They said it would improve the park experience..."

In other words, the MiB has always been the bad guy in Westworld. His "awakening" or "purpose" happened when he saw in Meave that she can be alive. Thus, he discovered that there was a hidden game. He found the Maze. This happens 1 year prior to MiB's current timeline.

Now, let's go back to William's timeline. William sees the markings and we even see hints of the "maze". He says "(Dolores) I will help you find what you're looking for". So, he knows about the maze.

Then, we see flesh bots. Do you remember Slim, the guy with nitro all over his body? When that body exploded, we didn't see machine parts.

When that horse exploded as well, we did not see machine parts at all. 
Now, compare that to Young Robert Ford.

Unless there are some deep loopholes or in the next 2 episodes we see William carving out a body, then William cannot possibly be the MiB. We might yet find  more surprises by this season's end.  

Vasilnate1

I think there is gonna be a few twists that nobody sees coming,  2 years in production, and a major rewrite, Im sure Nolan and Joy did a bunch of test viewing and knew where the audience would go with a lot of the theories, which would give them an opportunity to disguise them.  I think they wanted everyone to have these theories so they could "blow" our minds with something no one saw coming.  wheather or not they can pull it off without killing their viewership is another story though.

KingKobra

When you have thousands and thousands of people all joining together, someone is bound to come up with some of the things. This is just the nature of the think tank that is forums and the beast called Reddit.

tpelzy

ChiefPizza said:

BUT - that still doesn't stop me from binging on every podcast, article, and theory that I can find, so it's my own fault! Haha

@ChiefPizza Same lol

tpelzy

ChristianM said:

Then, we see flesh bots. Do you remember Slim, the guy with nitro all over his body? When that body exploded, we didn't see machine parts.

When that horse exploded as well, we did not see machine parts at all. 
Now, compare that to Young Robert Ford.

 

@ChristianM I think people are assuming that the park is 30 something years old, but what if it's much older. So if the park is 40 yrs old the bots maybe have been converted from machine to flesh parts before William got there. 

Never mind. I just thought about the fact that MIB remembers when they were mechanical.  

ChristianM

tpelzy said:

ChristianM said:

Then, we see flesh bots. Do you remember Slim, the guy with nitro all over his body? When that body exploded, we didn't see machine parts.

When that horse exploded as well, we did not see machine parts at all. 
Now, compare that to Young Robert Ford.

 

@ChristianM I think people are assuming that the park is 30 something years old, but what if it's much older. So if the park is 40 yrs old the bots maybe have been converted from machine to flesh parts before William got there. 

Right. That's true. The park is MUCH older since Logan said he's been coming to the park many times before. Even his sister came to the park. 
We even have a time when Dolores had any interaction with Arnold, 35 yrs.

WonderedObject

Honestly it's tough to outsmart the audience these days. I can only think of one show recently that did that. Like it was mentioned above, with a show this big anyone can just throw anything at the wall and something is bound to stick.

But the delivery is what makes the show. And that's why I'm really enjoying this. Yeah I knew About the strongly supported Bernard theory every episode (people wouldnt stop talking about it) but the way the show revealed it was amazing IMO. I mean I still see references to "What door" all over the internet.

I think it's tough on the creators relying on twists like that when you've got a week to week model where each episode is dissected like crazy every week.

I guess it comes down to you. It's tough to watch an episode and stay away from the internet. I can't really do it for this show but I plan to for the next season of another show that came out this year. Maybe see how this season plays out and try that next season.

But like I said, if you can't nail the omg twist it is certainly possibly to at least knock the reveal out of the park.

Vasilnate1

WonderedObject said:

.

But like I said, if you can't nail the omg twist it is certainly possibly to at least knock the reveal out of the park.

Like season finale from Thrones last year, we all knew what was coming, but they did it so well

WonderedObject

@Vasilnate1 spoiler! Luckily I don't watch that show and won't remember by the time I do, but still haha. There's a reason I was so vague with the shows I was mentioning.

tpelzy

WonderedObject said:

But the delivery is what makes the show. And that's why I'm really enjoying this. 

I agree. I think they're doing a great job with the execution. 

Jim

@ChristianM That's actually a super good point that I haven't seen discussed anywhere else; that the MIB remembers when they were robots, this is William's first time in the park, and that Slim / horse explode into meat-parts.  I took another look at that scene and the chunks are indeed pretty meaty, not robotic.

Now, I'm not sure I would consider this proof of a single timeframe, or even that MiB and William aren't the same person.  It seems pretty iron-clad but I could chalk it up to a production oversight if they later revealed that they are, in fact, the same person.  I'll definitely bring it up on the next podcast though.

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Vasilnate1

Jim said:

Jim said:

@ChristianM That's actually a super good point that I haven't seen discussed anywhere else; that the MIB remembers when they were robots, this is William's first time in the park, and that Slim / horse explode into meat-parts.  I took another look at that scene and the chunks are indeed pretty meaty, not robotic.

Now, I'm not sure I would consider this proof of a single timeframe, or even that MiB and William aren't the same person.  It seems pretty iron-clad but I could chalk it up to a production oversight if they later revealed that they are, in fact, the same person.  I'll definitely bring it up on the next podcast though.

Why would they blow up the real Slim?  If this is part of this particular narrative, and they go through this event once a week, or once a month, they wouldnt actually blow up the host every time?  If they spend so much time and money building and programming these hosts I cant imagine they would destroy one every time this narrative goes off.  I'm assuming that its just a stand in dummy.  

bizmarkiefader

If you set things up correctly and have thousands of people guessing at every possibility of course someone somewhere is going to guess what happens. The twists are only satisfying or mean anything if they fit in hindsight and they have to make sense to people who watch this show as a dramatic narrative instead of a puzzle to solve every week.

People want to breathlessly break the show down into every possible outcome, but then have it go in a direction nobody saw coming, but still have it all fit together in a satisfying way and I just don't think that's a reasonable bar. They're kinda asking for it with the mazes on scalps and all that shit but there's more to a show than how much it surprises you.

KingKobra

As far as being meaty, really the head was the most mechanical part (ala young Ford). We saw evolution from mostly mechanical (early early days), to partially mechanical (young Ford), to current status (mostly all biomechanical). The horse I am guessing at the time William is there may be "mostly" meat with the brain/head being mechanical. When the explosion happened really it would be mostly meat

ChristianM

KingKobra said:

As far as being meaty, really the head was the most mechanical part (ala young Ford). We saw evolution from mostly mechanical (early early days), to partially mechanical (young Ford), to current status (mostly all biomechanical). The horse I am guessing at the time William is there may be "mostly" meat with the brain/head being mechanical. When the explosion happened really it would be mostly meat

I'd love to see proof of that in the story. 

Vasilnate1

they wouldn't destroy real Hosts, those are stage pieces, part of the narrative, Slim and that horse blow up at least once every 28 days.  

ChristianM

Vasilnate1 said:

@ChristianM That's actually a super good point that I haven't seen discussed anywhere else; that the MIB remembers when they were robots, this is William's first time in the park, and that Slim / horse explode into meat-parts.  I took another look at that scene and the chunks are indeed pretty meaty, not robotic.
Now, I'm not sure I would consider this proof of a single timeframe, or even that MiB and William aren't the same person.  It seems pretty iron-clad but I could chalk it up to a production oversight if they later revealed that they are, in fact, the same person.  I'll definitely bring it up on the next podcast though.

Why would they blow up the real Slim?  If this is part of this particular narrative, and they go through this event once a week, or once a month, they wouldnt actually blow up the host every time?  If they spend so much time and money building and programming these hosts I cant imagine they would destroy one every time this narrative goes off.  I'm assuming that its just a stand in dummy.  

Logan: "...We think of a buyout. This place is hemorrhaging money..."

OldGriswold

Jim said:

@ChristianM That's actually a super good point that I haven't seen discussed anywhere else; that the MIB remembers when they were robots, this is William's first time in the park, and that Slim / horse explode into meat-parts.  I took another look at that scene and the chunks are indeed pretty meaty, not robotic.

Now, I'm not sure I would consider this proof of a single timeframe, or even that MiB and William aren't the same person.  It seems pretty iron-clad but I could chalk it up to a production oversight if they later revealed that they are, in fact, the same person.  I'll definitely bring it up on the next podcast though.

Up until the last episode I was rooting for Logan=MiB, and he's been at the park many times already

Cory

Vasilnate1 said:

Jim said:

Why would they blow up the real Slim?  If this is part of this particular narrative, and they go through this event once a week, or once a month, they wouldnt actually blow up the host every time?  If they spend so much time and money building and programming these hosts I cant imagine they would destroy one every time this narrative goes off.  I'm assuming that its just a stand in dummy.  

I thought I saw Lawrence with two horses, and a body slumped across the other horse.  I was pretty sleepy while watching, and thought maybe it was an error and assumed it was Slim and likely went straight to sleep.

KingKobra

OldGriswold said:

Jim said:

@ChristianM That's actually a super good point that I haven't seen discussed anywhere else; that the MIB remembers when they were robots, this is William's first time in the park, and that Slim / horse explode into meat-parts.  I took another look at that scene and the chunks are indeed pretty meaty, not robotic.

Now, I'm not sure I would consider this proof of a single timeframe, or even that MiB and William aren't the same person.  It seems pretty iron-clad but I could chalk it up to a production oversight if they later revealed that they are, in fact, the same person.  I'll definitely bring it up on the next podcast though.

Up until the last episode I was rooting for Logan=MiB, and he's been at the park many times already

Logan=Hector

darwinfeeshy

Meh, we'll see. 

I've been championing the multiple time frames theory since episode 2, but I'd still be disappointed if that was the "big reveal" of the finale. Same goes for Bernarnold.

I'm hoping for some big WTF moments from Maeve's storyline or Ford's new narrative.

Doctor_Nick

This show's not going to be half as good without Anthony Hopkins, and I don't see Ford making it to season 2 unless they go off the beaten path and make him live amongst his risen up creations like Dr. Moreau.

Vasilnate1

Yeah? cuz Game of Thrones sucked after Sean Bean!  ha!

Doctor_Nick

Westworld hasn't delivered plot the way George RR Martin did yet. Westworld is building but it's not as well drawn as GoT in the first season. Yet.