The Americans - Season 5

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  • TheEconomistTheEconomist Chattanooga, TN
    @dochielomn The WW2 vets is not a good comparison. Those were fully declared wars on a battlefield. Would you say Nazi spies who assassinated US noncombantants weren't murderers? The key is this is a Cold War not an open declared one it isn't proper wartime. What Stan did in season one to the embassy worker was flat out murder. It wasn't wartime, he posed no immediate threat, he wasn't even treated as a POW, let alone a person with rights.

    Elizabeth orchestrated the death of a defense worker by dropping a car on him so her contact could get a promotion then I'm pretty sure she murdered her and her husband. Maybe you can justify the last two in self defense but not the former. They also contemplate killing Pastor Tim. How the
    hell do you justify that as a wartime killing?
    Elisa
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  • The real mystery to me is - Do they ever really do any travel agent work any more? They used to show them booking trips occasionally lol.

    They've shown them at the TA a few times. Just not sure hey need to keep showing it in detail.
  • TheEconomistTheEconomist Chattanooga, TN

    Dude Oleg! If only my dating life was as easy. It's like Soviet Bachelor on hometown dates plus they cook and pour you vodka?

    But I get it's probably not a great time to start a relationship when you're being blackmailed by the CIA.

    I listened to the Slate podcast about this today. The host interviews the showrunners and sometimes the actors or different crew members. The showrunners said this dating setup was something that was really done in Moscow at the time! 
    That is a great podcast with direct access to all the people who make the show. Really insightful.

    Elisa
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  • @dochielomn The WW2 vets is not a good comparison. Those were fully declared wars on a battlefield. Would you say Nazi spies who assassinated US noncombantants weren't murderers? The key is this is a Cold War not an open declared one it isn't proper wartime. What Stan did in season one to the embassy worker was flat out murder. It wasn't wartime, he posed no immediate threat, he wasn't even treated as a POW, let alone a person with rights.

    Elizabeth orchestrated the death of a defense worker by dropping a car on him so her contact could get a promotion then I'm pretty sure she murdered her and her husband. Maybe you can justify the last two in self defense but not the former. They also contemplate killing Pastor Tim. How the
    hell do you justify that as a wartime killing? My point



    My point isn't what my personal view or your personal view is, it's about the justification for the character or the person doing the "murder".  So, to answer your question, the Nazi spy probably would call it a wartime killing as oppose to murder.  War, especially in today's world, doesn't necessarily have to be on an "open battlefield".  You look at a group such as ISIS and to them, it's war and every innocent person they take and slaughter, they feel it's justified because it's war to them.  Now, do I personally agree to that?  Hell no!  But to them, their "murder" is justified and they can move on.  So, that was more of my point with regards to Phillip.  Probably all of his previous "murders" were justifiable to him because the cold war was still happening.  And while there isn't technically an open battlefield to fight on, the word "war" is still used to describe the era in history (the cold war).  However, this time (with the lab guy), Phillip can't justify his "murder" and hence, he is kind of freaking out about it.

    The justification for Pastor Tim is that because Paige put him in the "game".  Prior to Paige telling Pastor Tim the truth, they didn't like his influence on Paige but they weren't actually going to kill him because he wasn't in play.  Now, technically he is and Alice has proven why both she and Tim are targets with her making the tape and threatening Phillip and Elizabeth with it.

    Also, my argument is more towards Phillip.  Phillip has more of a conscience.  Elizabeth is shown to be more 100% loyal to the USSR and is more cold blooded when it comes to having to kill anyone. 

    But overall, for my own personal opinion on Phillip and Elizabeth, I would classify them as murderers.  But I would say the same thing for Stan because of the exact example that you gave.    

    ElisaTheEconomist
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  • elgat0elgat0 Clearwater

    Why did Stan shoot that kid? I can't remember now.

    It was in retaliation for the killing of his partner.  If I remember correctly, Stan's partner was staking out Martha and crossed paths with Phillip.  Phillip killed him.  Stan and the FBI blamed the Rezidentura KGB for the murder.  Stan & his boss decided they needed to kill someone from the Rezidentura to even the score.
    Elisa
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  • Slightly more than a stakeout from what I recall.  Thought that Stan's partner wanted to date Martha and maybe they went out on 1 date or so or they use to date but she clearly wasn't interested and I thought the way it went down was that Stan's partner encountered Clarke coming out of Marth's apartment and was confronting him about Martha and in the process they got into a fight and Clarke killed the guy which makes Stan thinks that the rezidentura was involved and hence he retaliates back.  From my memory, thought it happened closer to that.
    Elisaelgat0TheEconomist
  • elgat0elgat0 Clearwater

    Slightly more than a stakeout from what I recall.  Thought that Stan's partner wanted to date Martha and maybe they went out on 1 date or so or they use to date but she clearly wasn't interested and I thought the way it went down was that Stan's partner encountered Clarke coming out of Marth's apartment and was confronting him about Martha and in the process they got into a fight and Clarke killed the guy which makes Stan thinks that the rezidentura was involved and hence he retaliates back.  From my memory, thought it happened closer to that.

    You are correct.
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  • pavlovsbellpavlovsbell Brooklyn, NY
    elgat0 said:

    Why did Stan shoot that kid? I can't remember now.

    It was in retaliation for the killing of his partner.  If I remember correctly, Stan's partner was staking out Martha and crossed paths with Phillip.  Phillip killed him.  Stan and the FBI blamed the Rezidentura KGB for the murder.  Stan & his boss decided they needed to kill someone from the Rezidentura to even the score.
    The plan to assassinate someone from the Rezidentura, Arkady in fact, was in retaliation for the murder of three FBI agents in the previous episode. Philip and Elizabeth tried but failed to prevent those murders, then Amador started a fight with Philip, who turned Amador's knife against him. Stan had abstained from the extralegal op to kill Arkady until Amador disappeared, then he snapped and abducted and shot poor Vlad, who was innocent.

    Philip and Elizabeth tried to save Amador but couldn't. The whole mess happened because of crossed wires, high emotions, and being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Much like the scientist that Philip and Elizabeth killed recently. Both sides justified their actions as preventing the other side from committing worse crime (more murder, civilian starvation), but I think Stan's crime, revenge, was worse. Understandable but worse.
    Elisaelgat0
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  • To my memory, I think they were trying to save him mainly because they knew killing an FBI agent was not a good thing and would bring more heat on the rezidentura.
    TheEconomist
  • pavlovsbellpavlovsbell Brooklyn, NY

    Were they trying to save him or string him along to get information?

    To my memory, I think they were trying to save him mainly because they knew killing an FBI agent was not a good thing and would bring more heat on the rezidentura.

    Ah, okay I just checked. I think they would have preferred that he survived -- Philip certainly at first because he said that Chris needed to be in a hospital -- but they did need to get info from Chris about the assassination. But there's no way they could have let Chris live. Martha would have been burned, he could describe Clark, and he had seen Philip and Elizabeth at Stan's house.
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  • TheEconomistTheEconomist Chattanooga, TN
    I get enough existential dread from this show maybe I don't need The Leftovers.

    Anyone else worried Oleg was going to throw himself off the building Mad Men opening credits like?
    manhattnikDeeKingKobraElisa



  • Anyone else worried Oleg was going to throw himself off the building Mad Men opening credits like?



    Can't say that the thought crossed my mind while watching.  Interesting that the CIA is backing off of Oleg because of Stan's threat.  Although, how would Stan even know what's happening over there?  Also, got to wonder what's going through Oleg's mind since the CIA did give him that tape and were going to use him but now that they've backed off, Oleg has to wonder what that was all about. 

    More shocked that Gabriel is deciding to retire.  Figured Claudia was right in telling him that since Phillip and Elizabeth (or probably more Phillip) has lied to him, then he doesn't have to feel bad about not telling them the entire truth.  But I guess Gabriel has better values for himself.

    Sucks for Misha sneaking out of the USSR and gets to America only to be sent back home pretty quick.

    We also got our answer that Elizabeth and Phillip haven't been back to the USSR in a long time.

    I'll say this week's episode didn't do that much for me.  Felt more like filler/a bridge episode.


    Elisa
  • tom_gtom_g WV
    edited April 2017
    Has Liz found her Martha?  She seems to be pretty into the guy from Wichita, Omaha, whatever.
  • TheEconomistTheEconomist Chattanooga, TN
    Topeka
  • An interesting twist with Elizabeth's wheat guy (or at least what they made it seem to us).

    I was really surprised at the end to hear Gabriel tell Phillip that he should keep Paige out of all of this.  Hoping that we still get to see the character as he was good.  It was also interesting to hear Phillip ask Gabriel about Stan's new g/f and see Gabriel's reaction.

    While I wasn't shocked that Paige broke up with Matthew (poor Matthew, too young/naïve to know when your significant other says "we need to talk" that typically it's not going to be a pleasant conversation), I was surprised that they hadn't advanced beyond making out.  To me the show made it appear that they might go further than just kissing.

    Was sort of surprised that Stan's boss told him about Oleg but then again, if it was also to inform that he was potentially going to be fired, well, then maybe i'm not so surprised they told him.

  • edited April 2017

    Just a thought while watching last night's episode, what would Phillip and Elizabeth do if Paige killed herself and left a note saying something like how she couldn't handle it?  Do you think that pushes them both (more Elizabeth than Phillip) over the edge and they tell the center that they're done?  The thought only occurred to me because of Paige's comment about how sad she is (and I don't think it's about Matthew).  Also, I don't think the show would go down this road and i'm not expecting Paige to harm herself in any way.

    Was anyone else rooting for Oleg's dad to go through and make the call?  Clearly he was pissed.  Just wonder how/why they suspect Oleg?  Did the CIA tip them off?  Or did someone observe Oleg's behavior and start to wonder?

    Had to laugh that Phillip got dumped but I wonder why him mentioning that he was married intrigued her to pick up the phone?  Is this a "bad boy" type of thing that she's into?

    Not sure I like that Mrs. Morozov having an affair this quick but I suppose if she's truly unhappy with her life and the fact that her husband made her to come to the US, that it can make sense.




  • Just a thought while watching last night's episode, what would Phillip and Elizabeth do if Paige killed herself and left a note saying something like how she couldn't handle it?  Do you think that pushes them both (more Elizabeth than Phillip) over the edge and they tell the center that they're done?  The thought only occurred to me because of Paige's comment about how saw she is (and I don't think it's about Matthew).  Also, I don't think the show would go down this road and i'm not expecting Paige to harm herself in any way.

    Was anyone else rooting for Oleg's dad to go through and make the call?  Clearly he was pissed.  Just wonder how/why they suspect Oleg?  Did the CIA tip them off?  Or did someone observe Oleg's behavior and start to wonder?

    Had to laugh that Phillip got dumped but I wonder why him mentioning that he was married intrigued her to pick up the phone?  Is this a "bad boy" type of thing that she's into?

    Not sure I like that Mrs. Morozov having an affair this quick but I suppose if she's truly unhappy with her life and the fact that her husband made her to come to the US, that it can make sense.




    I don't know about the Paige/Suicide scenario.  I hope that doesn't happen, but who knows. 

    It was genius how Philip got her to pick up the phone.  I think he may have used his EST experience more than his spy training to pull that move.  I guess he assumed she was afraid of commitment, so he took that out of the mix in a couple of words.  Unfortunately, the new scenario he presented to her is attractive to a lot of people.
    CarnivalArtsmanhattnik
  • Just a thought while watching last night's episode, what would Phillip and Elizabeth do if Paige killed herself and left a note saying something like how she couldn't handle it?  Do you think that pushes them both (more Elizabeth than Phillip) over the edge and they tell the center that they're done?  The thought only occurred to me because of Paige's comment about how sad she is (and I don't think it's about Matthew).  Also, I don't think the show would go down this road and i'm not expecting Paige to harm herself in any way.

    Was anyone else rooting for Oleg's dad to go through and make the call?  Clearly he was pissed.  Just wonder how/why they suspect Oleg?  Did the CIA tip them off?  Or did someone observe Oleg's behavior and start to wonder?

    Had to laugh that Phillip got dumped but I wonder why him mentioning that he was married intrigued her to pick up the phone?  Is this a "bad boy" type of thing that she's into?

    Not sure I like that Mrs. Morozov having an affair this quick but I suppose if she's truly unhappy with her life and the fact that her husband made her to come to the US, that it can make sense.




    1) I hope not, this show will end tragically, but I don't think in that way.

    2) I'm guessing that his current boss tipped them off (which is why Oleg was questioning him). Oleg is sort of an "outsider" and people may try to get him.

    3) he played his character as someone super safe for her. She told him explicitly that he was too timid for her. Him having an affair adds a "touch" of danger/bad boy to him which is what she wants.

    4) people have had affairs for less ;)

    Excellent episode, enjoyed it from beginning to end. We are really starting to see E&P diverge (even though they attempt to be closer). The scene with Elizabeth and their handler (forgot her name, apologies) was very telling.

  • I like the shift in attention to Will and his recently discovered scholastic talents.  It's cool to see him take the bull by the horns, develop a plan for his future and execute the plan.  I don't think it's the case, but it almost seemed like Elizabeth and Philip were more pissed he caught them off guard, than the fact he wanted to go away.  He speculated what their objections might be and shot them down one by one. 
    KingKobra
  • Jujee said:

    I like the shift in attention to Will and his recently discovered scholastic talents.  It's cool to see him take the bull by the horns, develop a plan for his future and execute the plan.  I don't think it's the case, but it almost seemed like Elizabeth and Philip were more pissed he caught them off guard, than the fact he wanted to go away.  He speculated what their objections might be and shot them down one by one. 

    I think they are more worried about being in VA/DC and him being in NH if something where to happen and they needed to leave. It also means they wouldn't personally be able to keep an eye on him/protect him.

    Great episode this week, Gabriel's meetup makes you think he misses his work. Still look forward to this show every week.
  • Loved this past week's episode.

    Catching up with Martha was interesting to see mainly because you got the sense that if she had to do this all over again, she would not choose to go to the USSR.  I think being with "Clarke" is open to debate/interpretation but the ending, she clearly was not happy having no contact with her parents and basically anyone else.  I did really enjoy that we got to see Gabriel again.

    I tend to believe Tuan's story as I don't think he would become a double agent.  Although, I think had to told P&E, they might have agreed to let him make a phone call from an outside line.

    Was really surprised they went back to Kimmy.  Was really hoping that she wasn't going to jump Phillip saying that's what she wanted for her bday.  Although, it was a nice call back to bring her back and then show what most likely happened with the virus.  Really interesting to see Phillip's reaction to that and how later he mentioned how maybe Tuan wants to hit the reset button and be done with this (which I think has to be what Phillip would prefer to do at this point).  But now he's definitely questioning some things that he's being told.

    And are we really to believe the widow of agent Gaad?  Her saying "no, he'd want revenge" just comes off as what she wants regardless of if it's true.  But clearly Stan wanted her backing as to why he should leave Oleg alone.  Will be interesting to see what he does there.

    As for Oleg, his storyline is intriguing from the stance of whether the KGB is investigationg or suspicious of him because of the fact that he spent a decent amount of time in the USA or whether they actually think he's been compromised.  It was also interesting to see how Oleg played off the family thing to the food guy he arrested and how he got that guy to talk.

    For me, after a slow start to this season, things have been picking up and I'm looking forward to things to come.

    KingKobraElisa
  • KingKobra said:

    Jujee said:

    I like the shift in attention to Will and his recently discovered scholastic talents.  It's cool to see him take the bull by the horns, develop a plan for his future and execute the plan.  I don't think it's the case, but it almost seemed like Elizabeth and Philip were more pissed he caught them off guard, than the fact he wanted to go away.  He speculated what their objections might be and shot them down one by one. 

    I think they are more worried about being in VA/DC and him being in NH if something where to happen and they needed to leave. It also means they wouldn't personally be able to keep an eye on him/protect him.

    Great episode this week, Gabriel's meetup makes you think he misses his work. Still look forward to this show every week.
    Agreed, I'm sure that was the reason for Phillip and Elizabeth's concern.

    I don't know if Gabriel's had enough time to miss it yet.  It almost seemed like the reality of coming back to literally nothing in what he called his home, after all that service to his country, was setting in.  Very lonely and depressing.  It reminded me of the all-time great TV performance Dylan Baker pulled off on that hospital bed in the S4 finale.  The life of a Russian spy...alone, no recognition, like a ghost.  I think Dylan's character even used the term "ghost."
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